Synthetic Vision

Jhernandez04

Jhernandez04

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There was a similar discussion but it didn't answer my questions. So I'll go ahead and ask so away.


I'm very interested in synthetic vision as a back up in case of spatial disorientation.

Here is a link to a product that can offer synthetic vision on an ipad or android. I wonder if this is exactly what I'm looking for?

Thoughts?

http://www.aviation.levil.com/AHRS_mini.htm
 
Jhernandez04 said:
There was a similar discussion but it didn't answer my questions. So I'll go ahead and ask so away.


I'm very interested in synthetic vision as a back up in case of spatial disorientation.

Here is a link to a product that can offer synthetic vision on an ipad or android. I wonder if this is exactly what I'm looking for?

Thoughts?

http://www.aviation.levil.com/AHRS_mini.htm
Click to expand...


Look at WingX Pro and see which of the units it accepts. Best to get real SVT into your panel.
 
Henning said:
Look at WingX Pro and see which of the units it accepts. Best to get real SVT into your panel.
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Yea how much does that cost though? Looks like I the set up would be under 1500 here.

If it's reliable I wouldn't mind wingx.
 
Ron Levy said:
$20-30K and up.

Might do as an emergency backup. But I'd need to fly with it some to be able to say more.
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Yea thats pretty much the extent of it. Just as a backup incase I get disorientated. Putting 20-30K in the cherokee doesnt light my fire. But anything under 2K that could help keep me safe would be ideal.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Yea how much does that cost though? Looks like I the set up would be under 1500 here.

If it's reliable I wouldn't mind wingx.
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That's just it, you can't trust any of the non certified stuff to be reliable because there is no indication of when it is not reliable. Say you're in the clag and iSolution disagrees with your six pack, first off this can cause you spacial disorientation, and if you are already disoriented, which will you believe? It will be awfully tempting to believe the picture since you get that information instantly rather than having to process the six pack info and go through the failure mode analysis to see if there is a lie there.

All these iSolutions are limited to "use for situational awareness only" for a good reason. To use them as an emergency back up for a known failed panel is a marginal use, but IMO acceptable, but to use them to solve spacial disorientation to me is dangerous at best. Much better to rely on your partial panel and basic interpretation skills of your certified equipment whatever that may be.
 
While I agree with Henning on a fundamental basis regarding certified vs non-certified equipment, it's not that hard to tell when your AI has gone belly-up if you know what to look for and have appropriate warning systems like low-vacuum flags/lights or a vacuum gauge reading zero, especially when the AI is rocking and rolling while your butt tells you it's not, and the other 4-5 instruments (depending on whether your HI is electric or also vacuum) agree with your butt. Your butt may not be reliable for determining attitude, but it will certainly tell you when attitude is changing even if it won't tell you what it's changing from or where it's changing to, especially given the degree that a failed AI will be moving. In that situation, even an uncertified backup attitude indicator like the Dynon D1 or the device under discussion may save your life.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Yea thats pretty much the extent of it. Just as a backup incase I get disorientated. Putting 20-30K in the cherokee doesnt light my fire. But anything under 2K that could help keep me safe would be ideal.
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go do 30 minutes of unusual attitude recovery work with an instructor - much cheaper and it doesn't need batteries - it'll also keep you alive
 
Clark1961 said:
go do 30 minutes of unusual attitude recovery work with an instructor - much cheaper and it doesn't need batteries - it'll also keep you alive
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Can't argue with that, but I can't argue with also having one of these devices.
 
Ron Levy said:
While I agree with Henning on a fundamental basis regarding certified vs non-certified equipment, it's not that hard to tell when your AI has gone belly-up if you know what to look for and have appropriate warning systems like low-vacuum flags/lights or a vacuum gauge reading zero, especially when the AI is rocking and rolling while your butt tells you it's not, and the other 4-5 instruments (depending on whether your HI is electric or also vacuum) agree with your butt. Your butt may not be reliable for determining attitude, but it will certainly tell you when attitude is changing even if it won't tell you what it's changing from or where it's changing to, especially given the degree that a failed AI will be moving. In that situation, even an uncertified backup attitude indicator like the Dynon D1 or the device under discussion may save your life.
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The problem isn't the gauges going bad, it's the AHRS going bad with no failure indicator.
 
Henning said:
The problem isn't the gauges going bad, it's the AHRS going bad with no failure indicator.
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If you're talking about the backup device going bad, again, I don't think any pilot with an IR should have any trouble figuring out which of the two AI's (installed versus portable backup) is bad.

If you're talking about this as a backup to an AHRS/glass panel aircraft, I see even less of an issue. First, most of those aircraft have dual AHRS with cross-checking for parity, but even in the Diamond's single AHRS system, the FAA certification requirements for failure detection are rather rigorous. The possibility of an AHRS failure in a certified system without failure indication seems rather remote to me, and I've never heard of it happening.
 
Henning said:
The problem isn't the gauges going bad, it's the AHRS going bad with no failure indicator.
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If the airline trusts Ipads I wonder why this wouldnt be trust worthy? The experimental guys use stuff thats not certified all the time.

I just want to be safe and have some help at the controls.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
If the airline trusts Ipads I wonder why this wouldnt be trust worthy?
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The airlines only trust iPads as EFB's, not backup IA's. By regulation, they have three independent certified AI's installed in the aircraft, and aren't using the sort of thing we're discussing here for that purpose even as a backup in case of triple-failure.

The experimental guys use stuff thats not certified all the time.
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Yes, they do, and it fails a lot more often than the certified equipment, too. The FAA just isn't willing to take those risks with production-certified aircraft.

I just want to be safe and have some help at the controls.
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Then this device will probably provide what you want.
 
I use SVT everyday but not for spatial D. Flying at 300-500 in the mountains it gives a good depiction of antennas in the area. Also comes handy especially when flying downtown Atlanta with all the obstructions around.

I don't think it'll keep you more spatially oriented over a common six pack. SVT still shows ground on the bottom and sky on top just like a common AI does. If the terrain is flat and you're a few thousand feet up, SVT won't look that much than a glass AI.

For instruments I like the velocity vector during approaches. While using the CDI for primary orientation, I can back it up by putting the velocity vector on the runway approach end.

SVT is a nice tool to have but by no means necessary for VFR or IFR ops. I could just as easily navigate through the mountains VFR and shoot approaches IFR with a basic six pack. Like Clark said, unusual attitude training is key. I have to do it quarterly and I can tell you I've done it with glass SVT and non glass and it made no difference in recovery time. Just have to use a different scan is all.
 
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Yeah, if you've ever had a vacuum failure, having your AI sit half cocked on it's side can really screw you up in IMC if you aren't tuning it out or don't cover it up. A frozen AHRS unit would be even worse, I imagine.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're talking about the backup device going bad, again, I don't think any pilot with an IR should have any trouble figuring out which of the two AI's (installed versus portable backup) is bad.

If you're talking about this as a backup to an AHRS/glass panel aircraft, I see even less of an issue. First, most of those aircraft have dual AHRS with cross-checking for parity, but even in the Diamond's single AHRS system, the FAA certification requirements for failure detection are rather rigorous. The possibility of an AHRS failure in a certified system without failure indication seems rather remote to me, and I've never heard of it happening.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about it happening when spacial disorientation has already set in as the OP seeks to equip for.
 
Certified SVT does not have to be $20-30k. An Aspen is $10k+install, SVT is a $3k add-on. So depending on how your panel is set up now and additional work, could be $15k. Still not cheap.

I would say get the plane you really want and put money into it.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
If the airline trusts Ipads I wonder why this wouldnt be trust worthy? The experimental guys use stuff thats not certified all the time.

I just want to be safe and have some help at the controls.
Click to expand...

The airlines only allow it as a storage device for charts, they do not allow even the GPS position overlay onto those charts from what I understand.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
We did 1.5 hours straight 2 weeks ago.
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Excellent.

I wouldn't care to do 1.5 hours of nothing but unusual attitude recoveries but if it works for you then have at it.

After you get a technique, a couple short practice sessions is all ya really need. Of course not all primary instructors actually teach a technique to recognize the aircraft attitude with the instruments likely to be functioning, altimeter, airspeed, and compass or TC. I didn't pick up a good technique until my instrument checkride (very long story).
 
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Xavion and WingX both offer synthetic vision features on the Apple platform. My current setup is to run Xavion on a stand-alone iPad Mini, with a Nexus 7 running the iFly app (which itself has support for the iLevil and Skyguard AHRS boxes). While the certified counterparts (Aspen/Garmin) may be better, I, unfortunately, can't afford better. So that leaves me with what's better out of these two options:

1) Having a system on board that offers:
Terrain warnings
Obstacle warnings
Attitude indicator
Winds aloft
Glide probability to nearby airports
Traffic warnings

2) Not having these features available.

For me, it's worth the investment to have these features in the cockpit, but I'll also admit that I just enjoy messing around with technology.
 
Clark1961 said:
Excellent.

I wouldn't care to do 1.5 hours of nothing but unusual attitude recoveries but if it works for you then have at it.

After you get a technique, a couple short practice sessions is all ya really need. Of course not all primary instructors actually teach a technique to recognize the aircraft attitude with the instruments likely to be functioning, altimeter, airspeed, and compass or TC.
Click to expand...

38 of my 40hrs of IR training had no AI or DG.
 
Henning said:
38 of my 40hrs of IR training had no AI or DG.
Click to expand...

I never did like the AI during instrument training but for some reason (probably primary training) I focused on it for unusual attitude recoveries. Then the DPE showed me a better way...
 
Henning said:
I'm talking about it happening when spacial disorientation has already set in as the OP seeks to equip for.
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You're talking about an insidious AI failure after spatial disorientation has already occurred and in a way not apparent by physical senses? Too far out there for me to worry about.
 
Velocity173 said:
I use SVT everyday but not for spatial D. Flying at 300-500 in the mountains it gives a good depiction of antennas in the area. Also comes handy especially when flying downtown Atlanta with all the obstructions around.
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I wonder if this type of SVT would be capable of that?

I'll be going for my IFR in the summer, so it will be just extra help in the cockpit if I have terrain warning and such.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Certified SVT does not have to be $20-30k. An Aspen is $10k+install, SVT is a $3k add-on. So depending on how your panel is set up now and additional work, could be $15k. Still not cheap.
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I would point out that SVT adds nothing to the game in terms of spatial disorientation when compared to a non-SVT electronic AI display.

There are two issues here -- backup AI in event of AI failure, and the advantages of SVT in instrument flying. If you want SVT on the cheap, one of these gadgets can do it, but without the reliability of certified/installed SVT. If you want a cheap backup AI, ditto. But adding SVT to an installed electronic AI, or getting a backup AI with SVT as opposed to one without SVT, isn't going to make any significant difference in event of spatial disorientation.
 
I guess my biggest reason would be so I could have something to look to verify my AI at in the event of accidental IMC.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Yea thats pretty much the extent of it. Just as a backup incase I get disorientated. Putting 20-30K in the cherokee doesnt light my fire. But anything under 2K that could help keep me safe would be ideal.
Click to expand...

Computer generated displays can cause disorientation. Be careful here.

We used to have problems with the fancy 3D displays when I was at Goddard, that they would make users fatigued after several minutes, and occasionally sick. They eye is VERY sensitive to errors in perspective and timing. Lag in particular can make you hurl in seconds in the absence of additional cues, and you may not even figure out why.

You would do substantially better to have a backup AI. Everything gets worse in 3D.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Computer generated displays can cause disorientation. Be careful here.

We used to have problems with the fancy 3D displays when I was at Goddard, that they would make users fatigued after several minutes, and occasionally sick. They eye is VERY sensitive to errors in perspective.
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Yea good point. I think it would be beneficial as a backup only.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Yea good point. I think it would be beneficial as a backup only.
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I think it may kill you if used as a backup. Maybe try it with a safety pilot. Even that's not a guarantee -- IMC may come with turbulence, too.

Perhaps keep an eye on it under the hood while someone else does maneuvers, and then try to recover. If you feel sick or disoriented, it's not appropriate.
 
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Jhernandez04 said:
I wonder if this type of SVT would be capable of that?

I'll be going for my IFR in the summer, so it will be just extra help in the cockpit if I have terrain warning and such.
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It might have obstructions depicted but I would hope that you're not flying at those altitudes in an airplane. For helos, we're operating close to the surface and conducting off airport landings. Also in the city we're landing on rooftops with antennas all over the place. Occasionally those antennas are unlit at nigh. There's no TERPS for flying around a helipad in the city. For a FW guy going into an airport at night, obstructions shouldn't be an issue.

I really don't think you'll get much use out of it for your instrument training either. If you're flying an old school six pack, you need to be concentrating on what's in front of you. If you've done your enroute planning properly, and setup the approach correctly, you should never have to look down at some SVT on an iPad. A basic VFR GPS in terrain mode will provide warning to terrain in your area. Also if you're talking IFR in radar contact with ATC, it's their job to give a safety alert if you're not at the minimum IFR altitude.

So get it for a worse case scenario backup but for normal ops I really don't think you'll use it much during IFR. Even at the altitudes that I fly during VFR I mostly use the moving map display for terrain to backup what I'm seeing out the window.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I guess my biggest reason would be so I could have something to look to verify my AI at in the event of accidental IMC.
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Then I think the device and iPad at the top of this thread would probably do (but again, I'd like to fly with it before saying anything definitive). Just be really, really wary about jumping to conclusions if the two of them don't agree.
 
Velocity173 said:
It might have obstructions depicted but I would hope that you're not flying at those altitudes in an airplane. For helos, we're operating close to the surface and conducting off airport landings. Also in the city we're landing on rooftops with antennas all over the place. Occasionally those antennas are unlit at nigh. There's no TERPS for flying around a helipad in the city. For a FW guy going into an airport at night, obstructions shouldn't be an issue.

I really don't think you'll get much use out of it for your instrument training either. If you're flying an old school six pack, you need to be concentrating on what's in front of you. If you've done your enroute planning properly, and setup the approach correctly, you should never have to look down at some SVT on an iPad. A basic VFR GPS in terrain mode will provide warning to terrain in your area. Also if you're talking IFR in radar contact with ATC, it's their job to give a safety alert if you're not at the minimum IFR altitude.

So get it for a worse case scenario backup but for normal ops I really don't think you'll use it much during IFR. Even at the altitudes that I fly during VFR I use the moving map display for terrain to backup what I'm seeing out the window.
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That makes a lot sense to me. I figured if I couldnt look outside in IMC then looking at a screen would be worth it. But I guess not. I can put that money towards my training.
 
Clark1961 said:
I never did like the AI during instrument training but for some reason (probably primary training) I focused on it for unusual attitude recoveries. Then the DPE showed me a better way...
Click to expand...

What is the better way? I've always done unusual attitude recovery with the AI as my primary, monitoring the airspeed and altitude secondarily.
 
Clark1961 said:
Is there a CFII in the house?
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Yes, and I've given my comments already. I think it may be beneficial in event of an installed AI failure, and possibly as a confirmation of installed AI functioning. However, as I said above, I'd be very wary about believing either if they differ -- that's where knowing how to use the other instruments (altimeter, airspeed, T&B/turn coordinator) comes into play as the tie-breaker.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I can put that money towards my training.
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By far this is the best thing you can do. You will become a much better pilot in many ways including planning and operating the aircraft.
 
dukeblue219 said:
What is the better way? I've always done unusual attitude recovery with the AI as my primary, monitoring the airspeed and altitude secondarily.
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Altimeter, airspeed, and heading (or TC) tells you all you need to know and saves your bacon if the AI failed. Recovery is stop the heading change and then freeze the needles, throttle as required.
 
dukeblue219 said:
What is the better way? I've always done unusual attitude recovery with the AI as my primary, monitoring the airspeed and altitude secondarily.
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That's fine as long as the AI is working, and it's all that is required for PP-Airplane, but for the instrument rating, you'll have to be able to do unusual attitude recoveries with your "primary flight instrument(s) inoperative", to use the current IR PTS term (more commonly/historically called "partial panel"). In most legacy planes out there, that means simulating a vacuum pump failure resulting in loss of both AI and HI, and doing the recovery only on "needle, ball, and airspeed" (or more accurately, airspeed, altimeter, T&B/TC, and VSI {if you have one}). Of course, if you have a glass panel system like the G1000, that PFII situation means loss of the PFD/AHRS, and then you've got your standby AI along with altimeter and airspeed to fly by -- much easier.
 
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