SVFR clearance

[Richard]

Scenario: Daytime. You depart Class Delta aprt under SVFR clnc to fly to another Class Delta. Between Delta sfc areas you fly under Class Echo to remain in Class Golf.

Both towers are in operation. With respect to wx minima only, can you legally exit the Delta airspace at aprt of origination even though you don't have the cloud separation required for day VFR?

EDIT: "cloud separation" refers to Class D VFR day minima.

 

[SkyHog]

Gut instinct is no, something tells me that the day VFR requirements for Class G not being met would make SVFR not possible, but I am looking at the FARs right now (I've been good at that lately).

Be back with a reference.

 

[SkyHog]

OK - here we go:

91.157

(a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in §91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport.

Emphasis is mine

Still looking for more info...

And here's more reasoning:

Class G Minimums: 1sm visibility, clear of clouds (91.155)
SVFR Minimums: 1sm visibility, clear of clouds (91.157)

They're the same minima. If Class G mins aren't met, neither are SVFR.

 

[Michael]

I dont get it. If your leaving under SVFR going into Class G, The restrictions are the same.... The only change would be if you went into class E airspace.

 

[poadeleted20]

Legalities: Depends on the weather in the Class G airspace through which you transit. Assuming you have 1 mile visibility and can remain clear of clouds without violating the 91.119 minimum altitude rules, you would be legal to transit that G-space between the D-spaces. The D-space VFR rules apply only in the D-space, so what you do once you exit the D-space is governed by the G-space rules alone.

Safety issues: This would be a very risky proposition, both in terms of the safety of flight during the transit between the D-spaces, and in terms of entry into the second D-space. Staying below the E-space means staying below 1200 or 700 AGL, and that's risky business with 1 mile/clear of clouds weather -- lots of stuff you might hit, including TV towers, hills, etc. Also, if you call the second tower from the G-space for the SVFR clearance into their D-space, and they say "no can do," and the airport from which you departed won't take you back, you are between the proverbial rock and the proverbial hard place.

 

[Richard]

Let me put it this way: The SVFR clnc limit issued by the Class Delta twr is the lateral boundaries of Delta airspace. You no longer have that clearance when you depart the Delta sfc area. So, as long as you remain blo Echo, you are in Golf airspace. Daytime Golf is clear of clouds. (The issue is cloud clearance, not visibility.)

Is it possible to exit Delta on a SVFR clnc and into Golf airspace? (day)

I say yes. A local high time CFI says no. I'm tired of going round and round with her.

EDIT: To be fair, I should add that her position is more the practical viewpoint than the legal viewpoint. This is a point mentioned by Ron in this thread.

BTW: Nick, you can presume issuance of SVFR clnc by twr is evidence of having at least SVFR conditions.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Is it possible to exit Delta on a SVFR clnc and into Golf airspace? (day)

Sure.

I say yes.

Why does she say that? {edit, I chopped part of the quote}

EDIT: To be fair, I should add that her position is more the practical viewpoint than the legal viewpoint. This is a point mentioned by Ron in this thread.

Well, are we talking practical or legal? Different answers for each. But the way the questions are asked, I would interpret this as being a legal discussion

The Class D SVFR clearance ends at the edge of the Class D airspace. No need for a clearance INTO class G. So from a legal standpoint, your CFI is wrong.

 

[SkyHog]

I dont get it. If your leaving under SVFR going into Class G, The restrictions are the same.... The only change would be if you went into class E airspace.

Let me put it this way: The SVFR clnc limit issued by the Class Delta twr is the lateral boundaries of Delta airspace. You no longer have that clearance when you depart the Delta sfc area. So, as long as you remain blo Echo, you are in Golf airspace. Daytime Golf is clear of clouds. (The issue is cloud clearance, not visibility.)

Is it possible to exit Delta on a SVFR clnc and into Golf airspace? (day)

I say yes. A local high time CFI says no. I'm tired of going round and round with her.

EDIT: To be fair, I should add that her position is more the practical viewpoint than the legal viewpoint. This is a point mentioned by Ron in this thread.

BTW: Nick, you can presume issuance of SVFR clnc by twr is evidence of having at least SVFR conditions.

OK - after your edit, I read it like this:

You depart from a Class D under special VFR, exit it into Class G (where remaining clear of clouds, you're legal).

I don't see why you couldn't. The CFI is wrong (despite the "High Time"). Now, to get to the other Class D, assuming its below minimums for Day VFR in Class D, you'd need Special VFR to land. Separate clearance, as you're no longer in the original class D.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Let me put it this way: The SVFR clnc limit issued by the Class Delta twr is the lateral boundaries of Delta airspace. You no longer have that clearance when you depart the Delta sfc area. So, as long as you remain blo Echo, you are in Golf airspace. Daytime Golf is clear of clouds. (The issue is cloud clearance, not visibility.)

Is it possible to exit Delta on a SVFR clnc and into Golf airspace? (day)

I say yes. A local high time CFI says no. I'm tired of going round and round with her.

EDIT: To be fair, I should add that her position is more the practical viewpoint than the legal viewpoint. This is a point mentioned by Ron in this thread.

BTW: Nick, you can presume issuance of SVFR clnc by twr is evidence of having at least SVFR conditions.

I'd say that like about 98% of US pilots she doesn't fly much class G and can't understand either the practical nor legal aspects that the airspace affords.

The flight you've described happens every day in this state (legally too! )

 

[poadeleted20]

Is it possible to exit Delta on a SVFR clnc and into Golf airspace? (day) I say yes. A local high time CFI says no. I'm tired of going round and round with her.

Please ask that CFI what regulation would be violated, and how it would be violated. To my knowledge, there isn't one. Yes, from a practical standpoint, this is definitely something that is very difficult to arrange (biggest problem is entry into the second D-space), and from a safety standpoint, this is extremely high risk, but unless 91.119 is violated (say, by flying at less than 1000 AGL over a "congested area" while staying under a magenta 700 AGL E-space), there is no regulatory violation (other than chance of the always-lurking 91.13 careless/reckless charge if something bad happens).

 

[SkyHog]

Please ask that CFI what regulation would be violated, and how it would be violated. To my knowledge, there isn't one. Yes, from a practical standpoint, this is definitely something that is very difficult to arrange (biggest problem is entry into the second D-space), and from a safety standpoint, this is extremely high risk, but unless 91.119 is violated (say, by flying at less than 1000 AGL over a "congested area" while staying under a magenta 700 AGL E-space), there is no regulatory violation (other than chance of the always-lurking 91.13 careless/reckless charge if something bad happens).

Yessir! Richard, I would tell the CFI that 14CFR is interpreted most easily by saying "Its legal unless the FAR says its not." Almost every part of 14CFR is written to prohibit something, not to allow it.

Why can you fly into Restricted Areas without talking to ATC when they're not operating? Because 14CFR specifically says you must when they're operating, makes no mention of what to do when they're not.

Why can you fly at 1ft below the clouds in Class B airspace? Because 14CFR says you can't fly in the clouds, it never says you can't be 1 foot away.

Why can you enter the pattern in any way you want to? Because the FARs do not specify which way is required.

It goes on. I can't think of any (I'm sure there are) regs that are permissive in nature. They're all (or almost all) prohibitive in nature. Grasping that is what made 14CFR so much easier for me to read and understand.

 

[gismo]

I say yes. A local high time CFI says no. I'm tired of going round and round with her.

You are right, she is wrong. But so what? Is there some compelling reason why you need to convince her of the error? Some folks can never be "cured" of their ignorance and many of those don't even want to be.

EDIT: To be fair, I should add that her position is more the practical viewpoint than the legal viewpoint. This is a point mentioned by Ron in this thread.

On the practical side the answer really is "it depends". There are situations where I'd have no trouble doing exactly as you stated (SVFR/Class G/SVFR) and there are ones where just an SVFR exit from class D to an airport in class G would be legal but I wouldn't want to try.

But if she says she doesn't care if it's legal, I don't think you really have any basis for an argument.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

...Yes, from a practical standpoint, this is definitely something that is very difficult to arrange (biggest problem is entry into the second D-space)...

It really isn't all that difficult if you know who to ask and what you need to request. You simply tell tower (ground) A what you wish to do, ask for flight following, and ask them to coordinate with the other tower. You will be told that you are "...cleared SVFR out of class delta...you can expect SVFR cleanance into Podunk class delta." At that point your bases are covered. BTDT, several times, requesting coordination between tower and approach for two SVFR clearances within Class D and adjoining Class E airspaces.

 

[poadeleted20]

It really isn't all that difficult if you know who to ask and what you need to request. You simply tell tower (ground) A what you wish to do, ask for flight following, and ask them to coordinate with the other tower. You will be told that you are "...cleared SVFR out of class delta...you can expect SVFR cleanance into Podunk class delta." At that point your bases are covered. BTDT, several times, requesting coordination between tower and approach for two SVFR clearances within Class D and adjoining Class E airspaces.

Going through the E-space was not the question -- staying below it (i.e., below the TRACON's airspace) in the G-space was, and the TRACON can't follow you or give you a SVFR clearance through the G-space underlying their E-space (ATC doesn't control uncontrolled airspace). Also, tower-to-tower only works if the D-spaces are virtually adjacent and the towers have direct communication (e.g., Bowman and Standiford in Louisville KY).

Ed may have done this between Harrisburg Int'l and Capitol City in his area, but probably only during a time of very low traffic, since it effectively closes both airports to IFR traffic during the transit.

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

Not sure if it is clear now, what the original question was about. Can you exit and enter the Class D under SVFR through Glass G? Answer is yes. SVFR and Class G day VFR limits are the same. Much of the discussion has been about the wisdom of this, but that was not the question.

As for SVFR to SVFR through Class E, that is also possible and is more frequently done. Low vis or broken clouds with tops at 2000 or 2500 AGL, so you use SVFR to get above it through a hole and then to get back down.

Better to have the IR and file an IFR flight plan. But that was not the original question.

 

[PeteJE]

OP question, yes you can do that SVFR to Class G (daytime, of course) as long as you can meet the class G weather minimums. You will have to call and request SVFR, and have it granted for the next class D entry.

 

[Henning]

Scenario: Daytime. You depart Class Delta aprt under SVFR clnc to fly to another Class Delta. Between Delta sfc areas you fly under Class Echo to remain in Class Golf.

Both towers are in operation. With respect to wx minima only, can you legally exit the Delta airspace at aprt of origination even though you don't have the cloud separation required for day VFR?

EDIT: "cloud separation" refers to Class D VFR day minima.

As long as you maintain 1SM and clear of clouds, sure, unless the bottom of the E crowds you down to below required altitude over a densly populated area.

 

[poadeleted20]

OP question, yes you can do that SVFR to Class G (daytime, of course) as long as you can meet the class G weather minimums. You will have to call and request SVFR, and have it granted for the next class D entry.

The only issue I can see the FAA raising on this is what happens if you get out into the G-space and the second tower refuses to issue an SVFR clearance into their D-space (e.g., IFR traffic in progress) -- do you have a good plan B for either somewhere else to go or what to do until they find an opening in their IFR traffic flow? If not, and you either crash or have to declare an emergency to get somewhere you can land, the Feds might well wave the 91.13 careless/reckless flag. IOW (and as always), you'd better have an "out" in case things don't go the way you wanted.

 

[MauleSkinner]

This actually used to be a fairly common scenario between Midway and Miegs...Miegs had no instrument approaches for years, and when the clouds were below the MVA, it was normal to shoot an approach into Midway, get a special outbound, and another special into Miegs. IIRC, there was about a mile of airspace in between the Class D's, so you had to coordinate fairly rapidly. I also don't remember what the airspace was in between the two D's.

Don't know if anybody ever had problems with not getting the special into Miegs...been a while ago.

Fly safe!

David

 

[PeteJE]

The only issue I can see the FAA raising on this is what happens if you get out into the G-space and the second tower refuses to issue an SVFR clearance into their D-space (e.g., IFR traffic in progress) -- do you have a good plan B for either somewhere else to go or what to do until they find an opening in their IFR traffic flow? If not, and you either crash or have to declare an emergency to get somewhere you can land, the Feds might well wave the 91.13 careless/reckless flag. IOW (and as always), you'd better have an "out" in case things don't go the way you wanted.

Yes! This is not the wisest of scenarios for a VFR pilot to get into. We can see it is possible legally, but not smart IMO. Given the OP scenario - I would not do it without an IR - what fun is it (or how safe) trying to do VFR with 1 mi. Vis? I am just starting my IR written study and an exclamation went off in my head when I was told there is no ATC separation in class G. Now, getting in class G is probably a rarity, but I would not want to be IMC in class G just relying on the big sky theory - is this a real world IFR concern?

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

Yes! This is not the wisest of scenarios for a VFR pilot to get into. We can see it is possible legally, but not smart IMO. Given the OP scenario - I would not do it without an IR - what fun is it (or how safe) trying to do VFR with 1 mi. Vis? I am just starting my IR written study and an exclamation went off in my head when I was told there is no ATC separation in class G. Now, getting in class G is probably a rarity, but I would not want to be IMC in class G just relying on the big sky theory - is this a real world IFR concern?

Just to be clear, SVFR would be needed to get in or out of C or D airspace at anything below 3 miles vis, and it is legal to fly in or out of an uncontrolled airport down to anything above 1 mile vis. So, depending on the actual visability, 1.1 or 2.9 miles, this could be a fairly normal VFR flight except for the low altitude to stay under Class E. A flight at 600 AGL with 2.5 mile vis would not be much of a problem over flat land. Not so good with towers and hills in the area. Not good at all with closer to 1 mile vis.

 

[Henning]

A flight at 600 AGL with 2.5 mile vis would not be much of a problem over flat land. Not so good with towers and hills in the area. Not good at all with closer to 1 mile vis.

Welcome to the world of flying pipeline in the winter, only bring it down a few hundred feet.

 

[poadeleted20]

Now, getting in class G is probably a rarity, but I would not want to be IMC in class G just relying on the big sky theory - is this a real world IFR concern?

Not unless you fly into/out of some private ranch airstrip in the big G-spaces out in Montana or Wyoming.

 

[t0r0nad0]

I'm just a 23-hour student, but from the sounds of this discussion the answer can be summed up very simply... it is legal, but not necessarily a good idea unless you are INTIMATELY familiar with the area over which you are flying. It sounds like something that reminds me of an admonishment I received on one of these forums that before you start making excuses for why it is a good idea, precede your excuse with, "Your Honor, I...", then see how good it sounds.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Yes! This is not the wisest of scenarios for a VFR pilot to get into. We can see it is possible legally, but not smart IMO. Given the OP scenario - I would not do it without an IR - what fun is it (or how safe) trying to do VFR with 1 mi. Vis? I am just starting my IR written study and an exclamation went off in my head when I was told there is no ATC separation in class G. Now, getting in class G is probably a rarity, but I would not want to be IMC in class G just relying on the big sky theory - is this a real world IFR concern?

Not unless you fly into/out of some private ranch airstrip in the big G-spaces out in Montana or Wyoming.

Sigh. We are the 49th state.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Just to be clear, SVFR would be needed to get in or out of C or D airspace at anything below 3 miles vis, and it is legal to fly in or out of an uncontrolled airport down to anything above 1 mile vis. So, depending on the actual visability, 1.1 or 2.9 miles, this could be a fairly normal VFR flight except for the low altitude to stay under Class E. A flight at 600 AGL with 2.5 mile vis would not be much of a problem over flat land. Not so good with towers and hills in the area. Not good at all with closer to 1 mile vis.

Bingo.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Now, getting in class G is probably a rarity, but I would not want to be IMC in class G just relying on the big sky theory - is this a real world IFR concern?

Getting into Class G happens every time I fly my Maule...getting OUT of Class G happens a couple of times a year in my Maule...and we achieved statehood nearly 150 years ago

Some people fly in class G only when they have to. Some people fly in class G because it's all that's there. Some people fly in Class G because it's useful airspace. And it can be used safely when used properly.

Same with SVFR...You don't get a Special simply because it's legal. You get a Special because you have a plan in mind that can be completed safely, and you have options in mind in case the plan doesn't pan out. Personally, I've got to go through plans A, B, and C before I get to my first alternative that involves anything resembling IMC, and and several more letters before anything resembling the "big sky theory" comes into play.

Fly safe!

David

 

[PeteJE]

Getting into Class G happens every time I fly my Maule...getting OUT of Class G happens a couple of times a year in my Maule...and we achieved statehood nearly 150 years ago

Some people fly in class G only when they have to. Some people fly in class G because it's all that's there. Some people fly in Class G because it's useful airspace. And it can be used safely when used properly.

Same with SVFR...You don't get a Special simply because it's legal. You get a Special because you have a plan in mind that can be completed safely, and you have options in mind in case the plan doesn't pan out. Personally, I've got to go through plans A, B, and C before I get to my first alternative that involves anything resembling IMC, and and several more letters before anything resembling the "big sky theory" comes into play.

Fly safe!

David

Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with class G (that is where my istructor is teaching floats outside of Seward for the season - I will start the IR flying in earnest upon her return). I was just surprised to hear Martha King tell me there is not controller provided separation if IMC in class G - I shouldn't be surprised, it is uncontrolled after all. I just thought it sounds scary to be IMC in class G with nothing other than cross your fingers separation. Probably more a theoretical scenario than a real one (I would plan around that if I knew I could potentially be IMC in class G) Sorry for getting this a bit of topic.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with class G (that is where my istructor is teaching floats outside of Seward for the season - I will start the IR flying in earnest upon her return). I was just surprised to hear Martha King tell me there is not controller provided separation if IMC in class G - I shouldn't be surprised, it is uncontrolled after all. I just thought it sounds scary to be IMC in class G with nothing other than cross your fingers separation. Probably more a theoretical scenario than a real one (I would plan around that if I knew I could potentially be IMC in class G) Sorry for getting this a bit of topic.

Well, at least you realize that you CAN fly IFR in IMC in class G, if I were a betting man I'd say 50% of GA pilots would say (incorrectly) you can't even legally DO it.

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

Legalities: Depends on the weather in the Class G airspace through which you transit. Assuming you have 1 mile visibility and can remain clear of clouds without violating the 91.119 minimum altitude rules, you would be legal to transit that G-space between the D-spaces. The D-space VFR rules apply only in the D-space, so what you do once you exit the D-space is governed by the G-space rules alone.

Safety issues: This would be a very risky proposition, both in terms of the safety of flight during the transit between the D-spaces, and in terms of entry into the second D-space. Staying below the E-space means staying below 1200 or 700 AGL, and that's risky business with 1 mile/clear of clouds weather -- lots of stuff you might hit, including TV towers, hills, etc. Also, if you call the second tower from the G-space for the SVFR clearance into their D-space, and they say "no can do," and the airport from which you departed won't take you back, you are between the proverbial rock and the proverbial hard place.

Cap'nRon's most likely correct (we CFIs can often debate the regs to no end -- but he also has infinitely more experience than I do).

My read on this scenario is fairly simple: You need SVFR clearance for Class Delta.

Upon transitioning into Class Golf, you must have the specific Class Golf Wx minimums established before entering that airspace, as well.

OK, what did I miss?

I am constantly learning, more so than ever as a CFI.

 

[Dr. Bill]

OK, what did I miss?

I am constantly learning, more so than ever as a CFI.

Nuthin'.

Though a great teacher , I'm no CFI.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Well, at least you realize that you CAN fly IFR in IMC in class G, if I were a betting man I'd say 50% of GA pilots would say (incorrectly) you can't even legally DO it.

Yup...I'd also bet that a large percentage of instrument rated pilots are, at least occasionally, IMC in Class G airspace on takeoff or landing without really understanding that they are.

Fly safe!

David

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

I'm just a 23-hour student, but from the sounds of this discussion the answer can be summed up very simply... it is legal, but not necessarily a good idea unless you are INTIMATELY familiar with the area over which you are flying. It sounds like something that reminds me of an admonishment I received on one of these forums that before you start making excuses for why it is a good idea, precede your excuse with, "Your Honor, I...", then see how good it sounds.

As a student pilot, remember SVFR is NOT legal for you yet. You should plan to get through every flight with your student weather minimums. But, if you are caught up with weather closing in, you can still get home. Just takes using your PIC authority, declare an emergency, and get the help you need to get down. But a student can't use SVFR to get down within the rules, so the error of being up in poor weather will likely require an explanation - by you and perhaps your CFI. But all that comes after you get down safe, and you will get all the help you may need to do that. You just need to start with Confess.

 

[MauleSkinner]

As a student pilot, remember SVFR is NOT legal for you yet. You should plan to get through every flight with your student weather minimums. But, if you are caught up with weather closing in, you can still get home...

Keeping in mind, of course, that getting home MAY not be the best option. Finding a place to safely land is the goal, whether that be your planned destination, a nearest airport, or a field down below. Unfortunately, IMO, precautionary and off-airport landings are severely under-taught.

There are also a lot of people who advise a pull-up into IMC under these circumstances. Personally, over the vast majority of the US, I'd take a precautionary off-airport landing over a pullup into IMC almost all of the time, as the pullup into IMC adds workload in far more areas than simply flying the airplane on instruments.

Just something to consider while you're on the ground and have time to think about it, rather than while you're in the air and have to make a decision right away

Fly safe!

David