Survey - Instrument Time Building

[lsimonds]

I'm trying to plan and weigh options for the path to an instrument ticket. Specifically, what I'd like to ask is how each of you built your simulated/actual time, e.g., flight instuction for the whole 40 hours or only for 15 and safety pilot for the rest, or somewhere in between. How much actual vice simulated? How would you do it differently again? I look forward to hearing your pros and cons, what you'd do over, what worked. Thanks!

 

[bbchien]

I drank from the firehose. I don't recommend that method.

 

[DeeG]

I think I had about 60 hours total for the IFR. Most of it with my CFII. I had about 10 hours of acutal, as i would grab ANY available CFII anytime there was any signifgant cloud cover. Its not a whole lot, but by SoCal summertime standards, its not too bad.

I probably could have done the ride with less time, but I wanted to get everything almost perfect for the DE, and I'm glad I did. Besides, Courtland loved to torture me. Partial panel NDB intersection holds were a favorite form of abuse for him. He was a very anal CFII, and once I would complete a given 'task' to his standards, he would push the bar even higher.
I got so nervous the day of the ride I made myself sick, so all I did was the oral portion. Re-scheduled the ride for the following Monday. The Santa Anas were a howling that day. But I nailed EVERYTHING and the DE commented on what a great job I did on the partial panel portion considering there was a 30kt wind out of the east. I just wish she wouldn't have told me that I passed the ride as I was flaring the plane. Glad she didn't deduct 'points' for the landing!

I didn't have any sim time, and I got most of my x/c time by ferrying an Arrow from SoCal to TX. I was supposed to get it to Orlando, but the weather turned ugly. Icing sucks.

I don't think I would have done anything different, I was very pleased with the way my training went, but I wish I had more actual time. Hoods/Foggles do not compare with being in a cloud.

 

[AdamZ]

I did it 141 so it was a bit different. It did seem like I was in the FTD forever. I hated that think all I wanted to do was get back into a plane. Now of course having my IR it was all worth it.

 

[Henning]

I'm trying to plan and weigh options for the path to an instrument ticket. Specifically, what I'd like to ask is how each of you built your simulated/actual time, e.g., flight instuction for the whole 40 hours or only for 15 and safety pilot for the rest, or somewhere in between. How much actual vice simulated? How would you do it differently again? I look forward to hearing your pros and cons, what you'd do over, what worked. Thanks!

Well, since my CFI gave me a great deal ($30 hr for his 172 wet+ 50,000+hr corporate jet pilot instructor, I did have to do the labor on his annual though) and I needed to do it in just over a week, I did it all with him, and I think out of the 40hrs, 38.5 of them were partial panel and all of them including the check ride were single radio (no flip flops either). That was probably the second most intense learning curve I've been under. I recommend doing them all with the II, and I also recommend finding a really good one. What mine taught me saved my life, and a lot of what he taught me isn't found in a PTS. Beware the 275hr CFII. Not saying they can't be good, just beware.

 

[wsuffa]

I did it part 61 with my (second) primary instructor. Older guy after the first left for Comair.

Bought my plane midway through after seeing the condition of trainers for IFR work (and a vacuum failure, and a 3-degree difference between VORs, and and and).

I got most of my instrument time thereafter. And I still train a lot, because you can't be too proficient.

I really didn't want to believe the wag that said "you're the most proficient that you'll ever be right after the checkride". I hope I'll proved him wrong. The more I fly IFR the less I think I know.

 

[ejensen]

I did it all with my instructor in 5 weeks. Took the practical at 40.5 hrs instrument time in the log book. Not bragging but you don't back slide much flying 5+ days a week. Did over half at night. No IMC only because none occured. I got 3.5 hours two days after the check ride.

Eric

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I did mine Part 61, independent instructor, renting from a large flying club.

Before I started the flying portion, I spent about 6 weeks home-studying for the written, with heavy use of Sporty's Instrument Rating DVDs (they were a new offering at the time). I passed the written a couple/few weeks before I started the flight training.

I started my instrument rating instruction with a few hours in the plane, then a mix of sim and plane (using the sim to polish procedures), then back to just the plane for the last 15 hrs or so. I finished the rating with about 46 hours of instrument training, which was really less, because about 6 hours of this was simulator and hood time spread out over a few previous years. 20 hours of this were in the simulator. There were also quite a few hours (ok, probably over 100) messing with MS-flight sim in "instrument conditions" for a few years too.

The training was "concentrated" as much as I could within a 2-1/2 month period, while working my regular 40/week (probably took a couple/few days off of work), flying/simming about 3 times a week, on average.

All of the ~40hrs during training were with an instructor (no hrs w/safety pilot-type time logged). All time was with the same instructor, except one informal phase-check type ride that I requested to fly with another instuctor late in the training.

It was a tremendous amount of work, but also a great sense of accomplishment once it was done! If I had to do it again, I would do it exactly the same way. What works for some doesn't work for all though, and you need to evaluate your individual situation and learning style.

Good Luck, and have fun with it!

Jeff

 

[spiderweb]

Not done yet, but here's what I've done so far:

First of all, during the PPL training, my CFII emphasized precision with the instruments whenever I was performing a task related to them. Also during this time, I was training out of a Class B, which helped tremendously with communications and working with ATC. Finally, during the PPL training, my CFII gave me roughly double the amount of required time under the hood.

For one year after that, I flew for fun accumulating hours, occasionally flying with my CFII on a "light" instrument lesson. Also during this time, I studied for the IR written which I took and passed one year ago.

After passing the written, I focused 90% of my flying on instrument training. I have been averaging three lessons per month, and one or two private flights for fun. Of my lessons, about 1/3rd have been on the sim. Using the sim has been very helpful in that I could get in many more approaches in less time, and for less money. (I also fly MS2002 and MS2004 to practice procedures.)

Where I am at now: I currently have about 50 hours of instrument time with a bit more than 14 hours being in actual. I finished my long IFR X-C this past month, and am now refining skills. I am ready for the "big push" towards the checkride, but will have to be satisfied with four lessons per month until the semester is over.

Hope that helps.

 

[RobertGerace]

I flew about 50 business trips with high time CFI-IA's and took whatever weather came -- which was rarely VFR due to where I live and the time of year.

Like Bill, I had some crappy trainers, and opted for training in SR20's and SR22's after that. The Cirri made training a little harder at first, and very nice once I got used to them.

After my ticket, I flew about 50 more trips with instrument instructors to make sure I really knew what I thought I knew.

Those hundred trips totalled between 200 and 250 hours of instrument instruction in all types of weather.

Also, like Bill said, I always feel like I could learn more. I insist on an IPC every six months at SimCom.

 

[kath]

I have close to 50 hours of instrument logged (about 10 in the simulator, about 1 actual, and the rest with foggles -- and all with the CFII) and my checkride is in a couple weeks. (!) It's taken me about 8 months, and because I've been training in my school's fancier planes, it's been expensive. I did it part 141.

My biggest regret about the training is that I picked the wrong season to do it (winter). Up until very recently, whenever it was cloudy, it was also freezing to the ground. Thus almost no actual.

If I had it to do over again, I would also have chosen to learn the "basic" stuff in a cheaper plane without all the bells and whistles.

--Kath

 

[Len Lanetti]

I did it 141 so it was a bit different. It did seem like I was in the FTD forever. I hated that think all I wanted to do was get back into a plane. Now of course having my IR it was all worth it.

I used the same school as Adam probably did but several years earlier...it was a Part 61 but the school was figuring on becoming Part 141 and had been a Part 141 school in the past.

The benefits were that the school used a very well organized syllabus between that and having an experienced instrument instructor I was able to finish the rating in minimum time.

The school did not have a simulator at the time so all the time was in the aircraft where a school with a simulator would be able to lower the cost somewhat.

Len

 

[EdFred]

At the time I started my instrument I was the only person I knew that flew. (Or was current, etc) I also started on my instrument training soon after ASEL. I only had about 30 hours of cross country PIC time. All of my instrument time was with an instructor. So, I got out with one and after a couple of lessons which showed I could handle flying on instruments, I doubled up the XC and the instrument hours. And I did about 15 hours or so at night including IMC at night. I think I had only about 3 hours of actual, 40.2 hours dual - sorry - "training received" (that's for you Ron), and 50.0 hours of cross country PIC when I took the check ride on May 8. The morning after I took a martial arts test, no less. I was exhausted

Like Kath, I started my instrument training in the fall. Bad idea. Started training in September, flew a few times into early December. Then did not get back in the plane until, um....late March. I know I was well past my passenger currency. Then someone in my company came down with aplastic anemia, and I could only train at night. I'll run all the exact numbers when I get home.

 

[bstratt]

I drank from the firehose as well in that I did the 7 day GATTS course. I had about 1.5 hours and the written completed before going.

Not for everyone but suited my requirements and learning style.

 

[poadeleted20]

Back in 1971, while in college, I teamed up with a buddy in the same position (Pvt-ASEL and about 150 TT, as the IR then required 200 TT) and worked with one instructor. For dual flights, we'd both go along -- one flying, one in the back observing. It's amazing how much more you see when the other guy's flying. Then we'd go out together and swap hood time practicing what we learned, with the pilot flying logging instrument and PIC, and the safety pilot logging SIC. The latter was useful building total time towards the then-needed 200. We each got our IR's with about 40.5 of instrument time, including a bit over 15 of instrument instruction. I highly recommend this system. Just limit what you practice to what your instructor has already taught you, so you don't teach each other any bad habits.

I also strongly recommend getting as much actual instrument time as you can on the instructor-aboard hops -- ain't nothing like the first time you go into the weather, and you're much better off having an experienced instructor there with you. If your instructor won't instruct in the weather, find one who will.

 

[lsimonds]

Thank you all for the great posts! See? You earned yourselves five stars!

A lot of good information here. A couple things that jump out at me right away are getting actual instrument time and having frequent training sessions. There are may other good points that I intend to file away for when my time arrives.

Those of you who haven't responded, keep 'em comin'

 

[John J]

Thank you all for the great posts! See? You earned yourselves five stars!

A lot of good information here. A couple things that jump out at me right away are getting actual instrument time and having frequent training sessions. There are may other good points that I intend to file away for when my time arrives.

Those of you who haven't responded, keep 'em comin'

I did my work on the instrment after the commercial. At the time in the early 1960's the FAA required 250 hours of TT and they really wanted people with the comercial rating. So I had lots of VFR X-C time before I started my training. Also with no money to get the rating in short order I had to get my time as I could. I did spend 5 hours in a Link and the rest was hood and Actual. Total of 50 hours spaced over 9 months. The equipment was from Tripacers to the 172 with venturies and tube radios. My test was in the 172 with venturies ( no vacume pomp) with a Narco Omingator with whisle stop tuning and a Super Homer for Back up. No ILS and yes on the plane was a DF unit. You got to use your timer alot and got to know morse code very well. When I passed my test I was very happy and felt like I had climbed Mt Everest.

John J

 

[lsimonds]

When I passed my test I was very happy and felt like I had climbed Mt Everest.John J

Shoot, I reckon....with that equipment list! We're spoiled today, arent we? At least you didn't have to worry about a Venturi tube failure, did you? I think one of the C150's I flew when I got my private (1975) may have had a Venturi...or maybe I'm thinking of the Cub or just an airplane I saw on the field. Lord, it was too long ago to remember...

 

[EdFred]

I'll run all the exact numbers when I get home.

Specific to getting the IR:

43.0 Training Time which included
5.3 Night
3.2 Actual
23.3 Simulated Instrument
10.3 Flight Training Device
15.8 XC

106.9 total hours from never being in a plane to my instrument

 

[lsimonds]

I did my work on the instrment after the commercial. John J

Actually, John, I'm still toying with doing that myself.

 

[John J]

Actually, John, I'm still toying with doing that myself.

Lisa;

It worked out well for me for at the time I earned my ticket the requirements were to have 250 tt before taking the test. The commercial ticket was 200tt of which 100 hours were x-c time. I found when I was working on my commercial I got to fly a lot of x-c time ferrying planes for expenses and it was a great time builder. Plus the practice of navigating to the exactness of what was needed to get the Instrument ticket was great. Practice, Practice and Practice. Also studying the weather, and making go-no go decisions.

The planes I trained in as I look back I would not change for anything. Learning to fly with the basics makes me appreciate all the great tools that we have now. I still get out once a month or more to do particial panel work with one radio to keep sharp. I do rememeber when I got my Instrument ticket the examiner said to me; "Welcome to the guild of airplane drivers" It was one of the best moments in my flying life.

Enjoy your training and pick a way that works best for you.

John J.

 

[grattonja]

I did not have a safety pilot readily available when I started instrument training, so I did pretty much all my time with a CFI. Now that my wife has her PP, she safety pilots for me. I did one or two sessions near the end with a safety pilot, but would do more had I to do it again. My wife is doing more of her hood time with a safety pilot, as she starts her training. It is a real $ saver for me to fly as her safety pilot so that both of us can log the time. We did that on a cross country yesterday and basically doubled the time aloft. I highly recommend that you safety pilot for someone with an IR at some point, if you can.

I started my training in January, which was great. By the time I was ready for actual approaches in actual, the weather here in Central PA was cooperative. That part of the training made sense. Get every minute you can in the clouds. You will be a better pilot for it.

I have never been in a sim. Sometime I would like to rectify that. In partial panel training, the instruments fail when they are covered. In a sim, I understand that they can really fail gyros, i.e. the AI gets the leans and the DG just wanders aimlessly. I would like to experience that. I have flown with dead instruments, and they are definitely more distracting than a sticky note over the instrument.

In the end, though, you have to do what works for you.

Jim G

 

[gismo]

It took me over two years, having gotten started more than three times only to have other priorities blow me off track. I'd guess that about 10% of my time was with a safety pilot and another 10-15% was on a FTD (sim). I even have an hour in an old Lear instrument trainer (looks like a minature airplane with stubby wings). The rest was dual with about four different instructors.