Superbowl TFR--Air Force shootdown

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
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Feb 27, 2005
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Display name:
Dave Siciliano
>From AOPA online...you don't really want to fly in Michigan Sunday, do
you?
AIR FORCE SAYS IT WILL SHOOT SUPER BOWL TFR VIOLATORS No doubt about it, they're serious about security around this Sunday's Super Bowl in Detroit. Some 10,000 security officers will be carefully watching 67,000 spectators at the game. Radiation and explosives detectors will be deployed at all of the approaches to Ford Field. And the super security includes the air. Both the United States and Canada have issued presidential-sized TFRs encircling the stadium out to 30 nautical miles and up to 18,000 feet. Inside that is a 10 nm no-fly zone that will be patrolled by Air Force fighters. "We're the last line of defense," Lt. Col. Bill Hargrove told ABC News Wednesday. When correspondent Pierre Thomas asked if he was prepared to take the order to shoot down a non-responsive civilian aircraft entering the inner ring, he answered, "Absolutely!" AOPA urges pilots to exercise extreme caution.
 
Now we can bet on the action both on the field and above it!
Is this a great country or what!
 
I confess, I'd really like to see a violation of the TFR. I would not want it to be a pilot but in some manner I would want this to happen. Then we'll get to see the heads roll. Our own fed govt shooting innocent civilians to death in what amounts to trespassing of pvt property.

I could get into my truck and drive it wildly at breath taking speeds and crash though the front gate and I doubt I'll be shot down. I would be apprehended, certainly, but not by personnel intending to kill me.

Maybe instead of shooting down civilian pilots they should pluck out their fingernails? Or put an ice pick through their eye socket. Oh wait, that's torture, a fed govt sanctioned killing is better than that, right?

I am so upset about this I can hardly think straight. God rest that pilot who does the deed, even if out of ignorance.

Maybe they can wait until half time for a real show. I'm getting all teary eyed already for that hapless pilot and for the declining state of our country.
 
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Dave Krall CFII said:
Now we can bet on the action both on the field and above it!
Is this a great country or what!
Click to expand...
Dave, you're a funny guy. That's funny what you said, seriously. My fear is it won't be so funny come Monday.
 
Richard said:
I am so upset about this I can hardly think straight. God rest that pilot who does the deed, even if out of ignorance.
Click to expand...

I'm right there with you. I don't see a Tractor Trailer or Minvan TFR.
 
Richard said:
I confess, I'd really like to see a violation of the TFR. I would not want it to be a pilot but in some manner I would want this to happen. Then we'll get to see the heads roll. Our own fed govt shooting innocent civilians to death in what amounts to trespassing of pvt property.

I could get into my truck and drive it wildly at breath taking speeds and crash though the front gate and I doubt I'll be shot down. I would be apprehended, certainly, but not by personal intending to kill me.

Maybe instead of shooting down civilian pilots they should pluck out their fingernails? Or put an ice pick through their eye socket. Oh wait, that's torture, a fed govt sanctioned killing is better than that, right?

I am so upset about this I can hardly think straight. God rest that pilot who does the deed, even if out of ignorance.

Maybe they can wait until half time for a real show. I'm getting all teary eyed already for that hapless pilot and for the declining state of our country.
Click to expand...

You know what Richard, if they shot down a small plane, it will be the end of GA as we know it. There will be huge outcry, and the upshot will be that the only solution the Government finds is that everyone must fly under IFR at all times. If we get to fly at all.

I really hope it does not occur.
 
Richard said:
Dave, you're a funny guy. That's funny what you said, seriously. My fear is it won't be so funny come Monday.
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Yeah, I hear ya Richard, I was thinking about how bad it could be for everybody when I wrote that, too. Wow, 1 security guy for each 6-7 people! I wonder how much that increased ticket costs by?
 
wsuffa said:
You know what Richard, if they shot down a small plane, it will be the end of GA as we know it. There will be huge outcry, and the upshot will be that the only solution the Government finds is that everyone must fly under IFR at all times. If we get to fly at all.

I really hope it does not occur.
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I know. How Carrollian can our govt be? GA is not the threat, let's build walls to protect us from GA, the walls are insufficient, let's ban all GA. Off with their heads!

My brother was on a business trip and happened to be within sight of where TWA 800 went down. In fact, he was looking out over the ocean in that general direction when he swears he saw a smoke trail leading to the airline. I've read up on that flight and one scenario was a GA bird on an intercept to fire it's missile from close distance at a scheduled carrier. ATC tapes supposedly have documented evidence of two blips merging.

Of course, that theory was, uh, shot down....

But I have to wonder if someone knows something we don't. It could be a real reason for the TFRs. Wouldn't the existence of TFRs discriminately targeting GA be de facto proof of a real GA threat predicated on a previous incident? I'm trying to be sane in the midst of all this stupidity.
 
Richard said:
I know. How Carrollian can our govt be? GA is not the threat, let's build walls to protect us from GA, the walls are insufficient, let's ban all GA. Off with their heads!

But I have to wonder if someone knows something we don't. It could be a real reason for the TFRs. Wouldn't the existence of TFRs discriminately targeting GA be de facto proof of a real GA threat predicated on a previous incident? I'm trying to be sane in the midst of all this stupidity.
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Of course none of us WANTS it to happen and many more people besides us here have put much more effort into implimenting their ways of "wanting it not to happen".

So in the meantime, who'll make odds for/against an aircraft incursion into the Super Bowl TFR?
Nobody?

OK, I'll give 50/50 chance under ANY circumstances and then go to 5 to 3 odds FOR an incursion IF the WX is VFR.
Any takers?
 
From another board: gives new meaning to the 'sudden death' nature of the playoffs.

Who knows, perhaps they have 'reliable intelligence' is that an oxymoron or what!

I have real mixed emotions about this and just don't understand why pilots keep straying into these well publicized areas. Pop up TFR busts are understandable. We're still getting busts over the Prohibited area around Waco. How widely has that be published? The National Guard pilots I know that intercept these yahoos hate doing it.

Dave
 
Ugh don't get me started. What I really wonder is what would happen in a Canadian busted the TFR on the Canadian side. I can't picutre the Canadians shooting anyone down and if we splash on of theirs they are in some deep Doo.
TFRs are an absolute waste. IMHO security at these events is just another part of the show. I have a frined who is with a major media outlet and he needs to take suitcases of equipment into these games. The folks who search the bags have NO CLUE what they are looking at.

I was speaking with Spike today when from his office window he could see AirForce One land at Love Field. I'm sure there must have been a TFR but know one checks the office buildings over looking the airport. IMHO it just a big freaking joke just a big show for the public. As Spike said how bout a Ryder Truck TFR.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Of course none of us WANTS it to happen and many more people besides us here have put much more effort into implimenting their ways of "wanting it not to happen".

So in the meantime, who'll make odds for/against an aircraft incursion into the Super Bowl TFR?
Nobody?

OK, I'll give 50/50 chance under ANY circumstances and then go to 5 to 3 odds FOR an incursion IF the WX is VFR.
Any takers?
Click to expand...
I'll take the bet. I bet there isn't a single violation by a GA aircraft. However, if a corporate guy screws up somehow, all bets are off. what are we betting?
 
Guess what. If a corporate guy busts it or Congressman Dinglehoffers pilot busts it guess who's gonna take the heat? Thats right us good ole GA.
 
AdamZ said:
Guess what. If a corporate guy busts it or Congressman Dinglehoffers pilot busts it guess who's gonna take the heat? Thats right us good ole GA.
Click to expand...
I picture three scenarios leading to a TFR violation:

--Some turd is farting around in his J-3 or Airknocker without a care in the world. This includes his positional awareness.*

--Someone declares emergency but the actual events unfold so quickly that the response is inappropriate because knowledge of the true nature of the event is not dessiminated fast enough.

--Rep. Kadiddlehopper's plane loses a primary instrument which causes a panic in the cockpit when the pax start ranting now they'll be late.

*This does not imply I think there is anything wrong with a)being a turd, b)farting, c)unelectrified small planes, d)all of the above concurrently. Should you be a)a turd, b)farting, and c)in a small plane I suggest you avoid Michigan this wknd. You may be shot dead for farting.
 
Richard said:
*This does not imply I think there is anything wrong with a)being a turd, b)farting, c)unelectrified small planes, d)all of the above concurrently. Should you be a)a turd, b)farting, and c)in a small plane I suggest you avoid Michigan this wknd. You may be shot dead for farting.
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I've been trying to answer a question someone asked for a couple years now and can't find any other answer. How many other common, or even exotic, mostly harmless activities/hobbies and such in this country put you in a situation where an inadvertent broken rule can result in a first time offense summary execution? I know they try to warn you off first but still.... If someone is in full blown idget blunder mode, they get in trouble, not shot.

Aviation is the only one I can think of where an honest person is likely to get shot to smithereens for an inadvertent legal screwup.

Hopping fences or driving past big nasty gov't keep out signs would get you arrested at most. Parking a big truck in front of a federal building would possibly get you a nasty talking to at worst. Taking a small motorboat into a military ship yard would probably get you keel hauled at gunpoint and they might possibly even shoot your boat engine if you got too close but you'd likely live through the ordeal. Heck, someone could deliberately set up an impromptu shooting gallery in a packed mall at christmas time and get off fairly easily. The vehicles out there that have a proven history of causing trouble have no real restrictions placed on them. OTOH, a teeny J-3 that couldn't hurt a barn putzing around the pattern at 50mph anywhere in the country requires a call to FSS just in case someone 1000+ miles away decided to change the rules since you got out of bed that morning...or even worse, change the rules between the time you hang up the phone while sitting on the numbers and release the brakes.

This whole scenario is just bad messed up.

Being a scapegoat in someone's gunsights for no reason gets extremely annoying after about FOUR AND A HALF YEARS...and that mentality is here to stay until they lock down the airspace completely.

Sigh.
 
Well most likely it's going to be crappy for weather. So the models are saying. We shall see. Most a/c's will probably be on an IFR Plan but that doesnt leave the responsibility out from the PIC. I have to take a load of people up there tomorrow. We are scheduled to leave around mid night. If you guys are really bored and want to know how crappy it was to go in and out, let me know. I'll post it.
 
Well, it was pretty uneventful going into DTW. We got here around 1pm local. The weather wasn’t too bad. We only got to stay at FL410 until around 90 west of FWA. Then they were stepping people down pretty quickly but wanted max speeds. Gotta love that in jet. Poor more expensive jet-A thru that engine! We got four crossing altitude restrictions. That’s usually a little more than normal. So about 80 out from the airport they started picking you off the arrival and giving you radar vectors. Hold 250kts below ten unless told otherwise. They were bringing us non airline guys around for 21L at DTW. Around the south and up the east side of DTW. The tops were around 6000 MSL so we really didn’t get to see much on the ground. The lowest ceiling at that time was around 2800 MSL so that wasn’t too bad either. The winds were blustery at altitude and on the ground so entering the clouds the ride got worse. The winds were around 290 degrees. Landing was just spitting snow and gusty. All in all, flying in was pretty easy. There were more controller hand offs down low than I remembered at DTW. The controllers were really pleasant but busy. A normal day at Chicago is worse than this was so it really wasn’t that bad.

They had you taxi up W and hold short of P4 for parking. Metro FBO was parking people on that taxi way. I had heard last night the guys were parking on a different location but the tower changed runways and they had to move about 12 aircraft. Line guys were not too happy. They bused you and your people over to the FBO. Everything was handled with class. After are people left, they handed us a packet of info with all the questions you would normally ask, answered. They also gave the pilots gift bags, which was nice. It had a super bowl hat, shirt, mug, and something else I cant remember.

So, head into the FBO. Fill out our slip of paper they had in the packets of info. Handed it too the front desk girl. They looked it over and gave us our rental car keys and we were gone. This FBO had it down to a science on how to flow the pilots thru the building. Now we will see tonight how they do with everyone leaving at once. J They did bring in an extra big screen TV and they are having a buffet all day long. Hopefully, that will be there tonight when I get there.

We leave around 12am local. I will let you know how it goes. Getting out is always the issue.
 
Brent Bradford said:
Well, it was pretty uneventful going into DTW. We got here around 1pm local. The weather wasn’t too bad. We only got to stay at FL410 until around 90 west of FWA. Then they were stepping people down pretty quickly but wanted max speeds. Gotta love that in jet. Poor more expensive jet-A thru that engine! We got four crossing altitude restrictions. That’s usually a little more than normal. So about 80 out from the airport they started picking you off the arrival and giving you radar vectors. Hold 250kts below ten unless told otherwise. They were bringing us non airline guys around for 21L at DTW. Around the south and up the east side of DTW. The tops were around 6000 MSL so we really didn’t get to see much on the ground. The lowest ceiling at that time was around 2800 MSL so that wasn’t too bad either. The winds were blustery at altitude and on the ground so entering the clouds the ride got worse. The winds were around 290 degrees. Landing was just spitting snow and gusty. All in all, flying in was pretty easy. There were more controller hand offs down low than I remembered at DTW. The controllers were really pleasant but busy. A normal day at Chicago is worse than this was so it really wasn’t that bad.

They had you taxi up W and hold short of P4 for parking. Metro FBO was parking people on that taxi way. I had heard last night the guys were parking on a different location but the tower changed runways and they had to move about 12 aircraft. Line guys were not too happy. They bused you and your people over to the FBO. Everything was handled with class. After are people left, they handed us a packet of info with all the questions you would normally ask, answered. They also gave the pilots gift bags, which was nice. It had a super bowl hat, shirt, mug, and something else I cant remember.

So, head into the FBO. Fill out our slip of paper they had in the packets of info. Handed it too the front desk girl. They looked it over and gave us our rental car keys and we were gone. This FBO had it down to a science on how to flow the pilots thru the building. Now we will see tonight how they do with everyone leaving at once. J They did bring in an extra big screen TV and they are having a buffet all day long. Hopefully, that will be there tonight when I get there.

We leave around 12am local. I will let you know how it goes. Getting out is always the issue.
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How much extra fuel will you need for the "hold for release" time over normal?
 
bharris said:
How much extra fuel will you need for the "hold for release" time over normal?
Click to expand...

Really will not know until I get back out to the 'port. I am about to head back out soon. We are pre-filled for an extra hour right now. You can always add more after talking to clearance. :)
 
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Orignally posted by Richard
I could get into my truck and drive it wildly at breath taking speeds and crash though the front gate and I doubt I'll be shot down. I would be apprehended, certainly, but not by personnel intending to kill me.
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Don't count on it. Remember, this is Detroit. :D

Haven't been able to see the miljets from here (I am about 16 miles out as the Cessna flies). They're probably running up and down the waterfront.

Weather is not that great still, ceilings have gone up a bit but the wind is still blustery. Not likley many of us VFR types would have ventured out today anyway. Good thing, now we can credit the awareness of our local GA pilot community!

Seriously though, the gov'mint needs to lighten up on all this TFR crap. I mean it's football for cryin' out loud!
 
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deafsound said:
I'll take the bet. I bet there isn't a single violation by a GA aircraft. However, if a corporate guy screws up somehow, all bets are off. what are we betting?
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We had a power outage here in North Seattle from a kicker windstorm yesterday after only a few minutes on the computer box in the morning and then today was just able to get to a house across town for the SuperBowl show which at this point in the fourth quarter looks fairly well over. No news reports of attacks on the crowd so far which is great but have heard no news on TFR busts which might not be news until tomorrow anyway.
 
Well getting out was easy. We do a lot of these major events and that was the smoothest I have seen yet. You are always going to have a small hiccup but all in all it was quick.

The line guys were really good out on the taxi-way. They had been standing out in the spitting dry snow, so to keep warm, they had been brushing off aircraft. Even the smaller Navajo beside us was spotless. Not much was sticking but it was the thought that counted.

Clearance was the hardest part. That poor lady was hauling butt on the clearances. If there was a problem, then you got sent to the “penalty clearance” frequency. Since our passengers were arriving early, I got sent there when I tried to request my clearance early. The lady was very nice about it (laughing), “Sorry Mr. Omni 45, you get to go to the other frequency on 118.75. I have nothing in front of me for you.”

There was not a ground hold nor big line for take-off. Passengers showed up quickly and we fired up the engines and were off taxing. The parking area was very close to the end of 21L. We were number three for take-off. Tops again were around 6000MSL. Little light to moderate rhime was reported at the tops. The ice light on the TV screen agreed and we were gone.

FBO’s cannot make everything seamless but they did a great job trying. I checked we were airborne in under an hour after arriving at the airport. Of course, we pre-fueled and that makes a big difference. Plus, no one had to de-ice yet. I was at an oil convention last week in HOU. We were number 28 for take-off! :no:

I guess the GA guys did good. No one was shot down!
 
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BTW, BB

What was the ramp fee for this little sortie to DTW?

Just curious, considering the amenities provided.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
We had a power outage here in North Seattle from a kicker windstorm yesterday after only a few minutes on the computer box in the morning and then today was just able to get to a house across town for the SuperBowl show which at this point in the fourth quarter looks fairly well over. No news reports of attacks on the crowd so far which is great but have heard no news on TFR busts which might not be news until tomorrow anyway.
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Sure sure, a good story to get out of the bet :)
 
deafsound said:
Sure sure, a good story to get out of the bet :)
Click to expand...

Looks like I would have lost any bets. YEAH!
(Do I owe you a new car or something?)
Hope it always works out good for GA somehow with these PITN TFRs.
Although the cold weather probably helped us more than some pilot's IQs.

May I also submit the following:
Here is the TAF for Boeing Field and Whidbey Island NAS (Saturday) note the wind
gusts:



KBFI 040536Z 040606 14011KT P6SM SCT030 BKN060 OVC100

FM0900 16012G22KT P6SM -RA OVC035

FM1600 19025G40KT P6SM -SHRA BKN025 BKN050



KNUW 040403 14020G30KT 8000 -RA BR SCT010 BKN025 OVC030 QNH2930INS

TEMPO 0309 14025G35KT 4800 RA BR FEW005 SCT010 BKN020 OVC030

BECMG 0911 14030KT 4800 RA BR SCT005 BKN015 OVC030 QNH2917INS

TEMPO 0912 14035G50KT 3200 -RA VCTS FEW002 SCT005 BKN010 OVC025

TEMPO 1218 14035G50KT 3200 RA FEW002 SCT005 BKN010 BKN025 OVC035

BECMG 1820 16025G35KT 6000 -SHRA SCT005 BKN010 BKN030 OVC060
QNH2919INS

BECMG 2301 25025G35KT 6000 -SHRA FEW004 SCT015 BKN025 OVC050 QNH2953INS

AMD 0407Z
 
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