Sump after fueling

Graueradler said:
We always sump the trucks first thing in the AM before pumping any fuel. I was talking about confirming that the customers plane had no water in it before we pump into it.
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We have a stationary tank, and I've noticed a sign saying that the tank is to be sumped daily.

Dr. O said:
Ya know, in over 50 years of banging around in airplanes it never occurred to me to sump after fueling - especially where I just landed, fueled the bird myself, and took off again... But after reading this incident, I am gonna have to rethink this...

denny-o .... you are never too old to learn to sit, rollover, and fetch, if Murphy is using a big enough stick
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And this is precisely why I started this thread, as an opportunity to learn.

I intentionally didn't post the entire text of the accident because I wasn't trying to look at potential causes to that particular accident, but to look at the issue of sumping as a whole.
 
Sounds like they were flying too low to make it to a suitable emergency landing field. Eyewitness reports always seem to be worth less the paper they're printed on when they say something you guys don't like.
 
steingar said:
Eyewitness reports always seem to be worth less the paper they're printed on when they say something you guys don't like.
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Because eyewitness reports are notoriously unreliable. Every accident has people saying the engine was sputtering, the plane was in a nose dive, etc... Which are all people's perceptions of what a small airplane crash should be like, thanks to the media. My favorite is the one where the lady swore the engine was sputtering - On a glider. :rolleyes:
 
Richard said:
Approx 6 gallons of Jet A to top off a 25 gallon tank made it very easy for me to visually detect wrong fuel was used to top of my tank. If I had not sumped after fueling I would have been the first to arrive at the accident. It was one of the rare times I do not supervise fueling.

Given all the risks of aviating, I cannot fathom a substantial reason to not seek to minimize those risks. In this case, sumping after fueling is a way to minimize the risk.
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I can tell you five gallons of diesel in a 25 gallon Dodge Intrepid will shut it down within 2 miles! My wife ran the experiment: I just paid to have it fixed.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Because eyewitness reports are notoriously unreliable. Every accident has people saying the engine was sputtering, the plane was in a nose dive, etc... Which are all people's perceptions of what a small airplane crash should be like, thanks to the media. My favorite is the one where the lady swore the engine was sputtering - On a glider. :rolleyes:
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Sounds like they're getting quite a bit of credence here, since we're all focused on sumping, despite the fact that there is no evidence that water or contaminants in the fuel system caused the crash, except perhaps for those normally unreliable eyewitness reports. I think I'm the first in this thread to point out they should have had a bit more altitude.

Whatever mistakes the pilots may or may not have made, they paid a horrible price. RIP.
 
steingar said:
Sounds like they're getting quite a bit of credence here, since we're all focused on sumping, despite the fact that there is no evidence that water or contaminants in the fuel system caused the crash, except perhaps for those normally unreliable eyewitness reports. I think I'm the first in this thread to point out they should have had a bit more altitude.

Whatever mistakes the pilots may or may not have made, they paid a horrible price. RIP.
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Michael, the thread was not started as an accident investigation thread, so that's not a fair statement to make. This is NOT about a particular accident!
 
Sorry, seemed to be the way it was going. My overly critical mind at work. My sumps leak something fierce, as do the sumps of other cherokee pilots I know. Lots of stained wheel pants at the big fly-in.
 
steingar said:
Sorry, seemed to be the way it was going. My overly critical mind at work. My sumps leak something fierce, as do the sumps of other cherokee pilots I know. Lots of stained wheel pants at the big fly-in.
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I've flown Cherokee's with sumps that don't leak. Perhaps you should get them fixed?
 
steingar said:
Ever owned one?
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Nope. But I'm pretty sure if I did I wouldn't be cool with AvGas leaking all over the place out of them. I kind of like my gas staying in my tanks.

As Dr Bruce says - if you can't sump for fear of them leaking afterward then you shouldn't be flying it.
 
Ron Levy said:
When a plane crashes, the last fuel souce is supposed to be quarrentined for inspection. If there was nothing in that source, the lineman's statement is irrelevant to the crash. OTOH, "pilot took off without sumping the tanks after fueling" is another one of those embarassing things you'd hate to have the rest of the world read in an accident report where you are the "accident pilot," whether it's relevant or not. Choose wisely.
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That is assuming the last source can be determined. I challenge anyone to determine where I got my last fuel from.
 
jesse said:
Nope. But I'm pretty sure if I did I wouldn't be cool with AvGas leaking all over the place out of them. I kind of like my gas staying in my tanks.

As Dr Bruce says - if you can't sump for fear of them leaking afterward then you shouldn't be flying it.
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Try owning airplane. They all have their warts.
 
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I did have my sump drains "fixed" on my Cherokee more than once, finally replacing them, and the even the new ones wouldn't seal up great. Blue Stain of Honor.
 
i think a lot of the leakage problems with cherokees has more to do with landing gear loads flexing the fuel tank than with the sumps.
 
tonycondon said:
i think a lot of the leakage problems with cherokees has more to do with landing gear loads flexing the fuel tank than with the sumps.
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You sayin my landings sucked??? Are ya punk?

In my cherokee is was definitely the sump valve.
 
then why didn't replacing the sump valve fix the problem? cheap/crappy replacement?
 
tonycondon said:
i think a lot of the leakage problems with cherokees has more to do with landing gear loads flexing the fuel tank than with the sumps.
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I know quite a few mechanics who would disagree with you. But who are they compared to the experts here.
 
what do the mechanics say causes the fuel to leak?
 
If it's the valve I refuse to believe that a non-leaking valve can't be found. If it's not the valve then sumping the valve isn't going to make it worse and isn't an excuse not to sump.
 
tonycondon said:
then why didn't replacing the sump valve fix the problem? cheap/crappy replacement?
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Residual small granuals that were near impossible to get out, they would get stuck in the valve and not allow it to close up, and you'd just get this slow slow drip. But come back the next weekend and it was enough to stain the wheel pant. Once the gasket in there twisted just a little bit too, and that caused another drip at another time.
 
steingar said:
I know quite a few mechanics who would disagree with you. But who are they compared to the experts here.
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Any chance we could discuss something without you making a demeaning statement and instead provide a useful reason to contribute to the value of this conversation?
 
EdFred said:
Residual small granuals that were near impossible to get out, they would get stuck in the valve and not allow it to close up, and you'd just get this slow slow drip. But come back the next weekend and it was enough to stain the wheel pant. Once the gasket in there twisted just a little bit too, and that caused another drip at another time.
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Thank you Ed...that makes some sense.
 
jesse said:
Any chance we could discuss something without you making a demeaning statement and instead provide a useful reason to contribute to the value of this conversation?
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you mean i'm not an expert?? :( :(
 
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I had seen one owner make a catch that he put under the valves so the pants wouldn't stain. A plastic cup with some wire that would hook over the stems on the valve. The fuel would evaporate away by the time you would get to it of course, but it would prevent the pants from turning blue.
 
EdFred said:
I had seen one owner make a catch that he put under the valves so the pants wouldn't stain. A plastic cup with some wire that would hook over the stems on the valve. The fuel would evaporate away by the time you would get to it of course, but it would prevent the pants from turning blue.
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I like it!! Sort of a drool cup for Cherokee's! :thumbsup:

Gary
 
why not just paint the wheel pants 100LL blue? :)
 
jesse said:
Any chance we could discuss something without you making a demeaning statement and instead provide a useful reason to contribute to the value of this conversation?
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Not after you make statement like this:

jesse said:
If it's the valve I refuse to believe that a non-leaking valve can't be found. If it's not the valve then sumping the valve isn't going to make it worse and isn't an excuse not to sump.
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jesse said:
Nope. But I'm pretty sure if I did I wouldn't be cool with AvGas leaking all over the place out of them. I kind of like my gas staying in my tanks.

As Dr Bruce says - if you can't sump for fear of them leaking afterward then you shouldn't be flying it.
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jesse said:
Okay - I'll do that. I still maintain that if you can't sump fuel for fear of your sumps leaking excessively afterward then the aircraft shouldn't be flown. Own it or not.

We're talking about relatively inexpensive critical safety items....
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ap/fuel_drainvalves.html
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I've spent a tidy sum trying to fix this problem, and the first real solution I've heard is in this thread. Thanks. I usually leave a shop rag, but that sounds better.

Pontificating from the peanut gallery about a relatively common problem in Cherokees smacks of arrogance. That may not be how you mean it, but it is how it comes off.
 
In the mid-80s I co-owned a 1976 Warrior II. In 2006-2008, I owned a 1964 Cherokee 160. The only problem I ever had with the sumps on the 160 was a small drip on one sump after sumping. A bit of exercising the spring eliminated the drip. The Warrior II did have the sumps replaced once. After that, no problem. Was I lucky?
 
From my own experience, yes. The cherokee is a wonderful airplane, but the sumps really suck, for reasons Ed explained nicely. I've seen fuel stains on more than a few.
 
EdFred said:
I had seen one owner make a catch that he put under the valves so the pants wouldn't stain. A plastic cup with some wire that would hook over the stems on the valve. The fuel would evaporate away by the time you would get to it of course, but it would prevent the pants from turning blue.
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Doesn't the fuel melt the plastic?:dunno:
 
steingar said:
I've spent a tidy sum trying to fix this problem, and the first real solution I've heard is in this thread. Thanks. I usually leave a shop rag, but that sounds better.

Pontificating from the peanut gallery about a relatively common problem in Cherokees smacks of arrogance. That may not be how you mean it, but it is how it comes off.
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Uhm, okay, whatever you say. I still maintain that if I owned the airplane I would figure out a way to keep the fuel from staining and if it were bad enough that I couldn't sump the tanks I wouldn't fly it.

Are you defending the concept that it's OK to let the sumps degrade to the point that you don't sump your fuel for fear of causing them to leak too much?
 
skidoo said:
Doh! Good point. I really didn't think of that. I suppose it is light. I can push it. But, it is not that easy pushing alone, while at 2600 lbs.
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Mine's a bit harder at 5100 lbs to push by hand, especially if there's the slightest uphill incline.
 
jesse said:
Uhm, okay, whatever you say. I still maintain that if I owned the airplane I would figure out a way to keep the fuel from staining and if it were bad enough that I couldn't sump the tanks I wouldn't fly it.
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Pretty easy to say from the peanut galley. When its your 30 AMU sitting in the hangar because of dribbling fuel sumps, you let me know.

jesse said:
Are you defending the concept that it's OK to let the sumps degrade to the point that you don't sump your fuel for fear of causing them to leak too much?
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Funny, mine did it the day they were installed. Those things must degrade pretty fast.

The drips I myself get from the sumps are an annoyance, not a safety issue. I like my wheel pants white. It is one of the very few downfalls of owning a Cherokee.

There are a few gremlins in Cessnas as well, like the fact that liquid can get into the tanks and be utterly unsumpable. For all I know they dribble too; I don't think they're right over the wheel pants. I'm certain there are others, but most are annoyances that we put up with. I'm certain every kind of aircraft has its warts. When they become safety issues, they get addressed.
 
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