Suggestions

[rundogdave]

New to the forum. Getting back in to flying after a 20 year hiatus. I only have 100 hours, all in a 1956 172 that my father owned. Sold it 20 years ago. I would like to get my instrument and commercial tickets, and possibly work towards a second career after I retire from the current occupation, in roughly 5 years. What are your thoughts on purchasing a plane for training and time building? Get something with fixed gear and lower hp for now, then transition to a high perf/retractable gear or go for the high perf/retractable to start with? I believe I have a partner lined up. Thinking around $30k each. Which aircraft would you suggest? I understand the insurance costs will be high for a while on the retractable. Thanks in advance.

 

[James331]

That's what I did to build hours for my CPL, I'd look at Cessna 140s, Chiefs, 8As, etc.

 

[arnoha]

If it's been a while since you've been in the game and a 172 is your only experience, what about renting for a while? If you really know what you want, buying can make sense, but until then, play the field a little and figure out what you like today.

Only problem may be your location. Westover Field is your local aerodrome? Looks like there's only one plane for rent that I can find, a Warrior. It's a little pricey at $140/hr, but that's what happens when you're the only game. So, maybe moving or owning are the only options.

I'd stick with a something slower and fixed gear to start if you're going to own. Aircraft are pretty much depreciated out of the gate, so you won't lose much by switching aircraft later if you want to.

 

[Timbeck2]

Dave I was in the same boat earlier this year. I started back in '85 and never finished my PPL. Rent back then was $40 wet plus $12 for the instructor. Rent today is $135 plus $50 for the instructor.

I bought a $31K Cherokee 140 and financed it for 15 years (standard practice) and my payments are $209 per month which is less than the cost of one average training flight in a rental. To me it was a no-brainer and I've never looked back or regretted my decision. Insurance is $815 per year.

If you have partners already lined up, even less expensive.

 

[James331]

Dave I was in the same boat earlier this year. I started back in '85 and never finished my PPL. Rent back then was $40 wet plus $12 for the instructor. Rent today is $135 plus $50 for the instructor.

I bought a $31K Cherokee 140 and financed it for 15 years (standard practice) and my payments are $209 per month which is less than the cost of one average training flight in a rental. To me it was a no-brainer and I've never looked back or regretted my decision. Insurance is $815 per year.

If you have partners already lined up, even less expensive.

I'd shop that around, AVEMCO, AirPower, AOPA, etc.

 

[Timbeck2]

That price was AOPA pre-pilot certification. It will go down next year. I should have clarified.

 

[rundogdave]

Renting anything has always been hard to choke down for me. Plus, at a buck forty an hour, if I fly 3 hours a month, that's a payment on a plane. My instructor has been a friend for 45 years, and a 12,000 United/Coast Guard pilot. My lessons cost me a lunch at our favorite BBQ joint. I'm leaning towards buying a hi/perf retractable after I get my currency/competence back, and gaining that experience right off the bat. I'd like to hear peoples experiences jumping into a complex with minimal flight time.

 

[James331]

Renting anything has always been hard to choke down for me. Plus, at a buck forty an hour, if I fly 3 hours a month, that's a payment on a plane. My instructor has been a friend for 45 years, and a 12,000 United/Coast Guard pilot. My lessons cost me a lunch at our favorite BBQ joint. I'm leaning towards buying a hi/perf retractable after I get my currency/competence back, and gaining that experience right off the bat. I'd like to hear peoples experiences jumping into a complex with minimal flight time.

If you're instructor is as good as you say it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Theboys]

Geez. My instructor wants to tear my plane apart and do 200,000 remodel he was telling me. Seems kinda expensive. Probably cheaper to get new instructor I think.

 

[Henning]

New to the forum. Getting back in to flying after a 20 year hiatus. I only have 100 hours, all in a 1956 172 that my father owned. Sold it 20 years ago. I would like to get my instrument and commercial tickets, and possibly work towards a second career after I retire from the current occupation, in roughly 5 years. What are your thoughts on purchasing a plane for training and time building? Get something with fixed gear and lower hp for now, then transition to a high perf/retractable gear or go for the high perf/retractable to start with? I believe I have a partner lined up. Thinking around $30k each. Which aircraft would you suggest? I understand the insurance costs will be high for a while on the retractable. Thanks in advance.

How old will you be starting this second career, and what sector do you want to be in? Your best bet will to be buy something you can instruct in and build/sell multi time if you are looking at airline flying. I think a Travelair is the most cost effective. Otherwise I would get a Citabria for giving initial training, plus adding tail wheel endorsements, spin training, and aerobatics for niche markets that pay at higher rates.

 

[flyingron]

I had a ten year hole in my logbook. I grabbed a FAR and AIM and my old private book and reviewed. Redid my medical and did a few hours with an instructor.

What the insurance will cost you on the retract depends on what time amounts you have now. Frankly, my wife had zero retract time and I had practically none (just some I picked up getting the complex signoff and some random get some instruction while ferrying club planes around). Insurance was not the significant part of our operational expense.

 

[petrolero]

Insurance on an RG largely depends on a) hull value and b) how much RG time you have. So once you buy it your insurance will only be "high" for the first year. Then it falls by quite a bit assuming you've flown it for 40 or 50 hours in the first year.

I bought my RG with only about +/-200 hrs, 175 PIC and it dropped about 20% after the first year and maybe another 10% after the Instrument Rating.

 

[rundogdave]

How old will you be starting this second career, and what sector do you want to be in? Your best bet will to be buy something you can instruct in and build/sell multi time if you are looking at airline flying. I think a Travelair is the most cost effective. Otherwise I would get a Citabria for giving initial training, plus adding tail wheel endorsements, spin training, and aerobatics for niche markets that pay at higher rates.

I'll be 58 or 59 when I retire from my current job. Not sure what sector it is called, but I've spoken to a pilot at Surf Air, and they are hiring co-pilots with 300 to 400 hours total time. They fly a fleet of PC-12s in Ca, Nv, and Az. That's why I am looking at a retractable to build time in.

 

[arnoha]

Renting anything has always been hard to choke down for me. Plus, at a buck forty an hour, if I fly 3 hours a month, that's a payment on a plane. My instructor has been a friend for 45 years, and a 12,000 United/Coast Guard pilot. My lessons cost me a lunch at our favorite BBQ joint. I'm leaning towards buying a hi/perf retractable after I get my currency/competence back, and gaining that experience right off the bat. I'd like to hear peoples experiences jumping into a complex with minimal flight time.

You'd have to look at your situation in particular, but for most folks the break even point for buying vs. renting is around 100 hours a year. Things to factor in include:

• Depreciation (minimal for an older aircraft)
• Money cost (what would you be making on this money if it weren't tied up?)
• Tie-down
• Insurance
• Annual
• Inspections
• Updates (GPS, etc.)
• Tax (sales, property)
• Fuel
• Oil
• Engine reserve
• Prop reserve
• Repairs
• Upgrades
• ...and more!

You'll note I did not include any loan payments. That should be rolled into money cost calculations. If you're paying cash, use that. If you're getting a loan, figure out the down payment and monthly and figure that in. Also, figure in the level of risk you're willing to take. If it's close to break-even, the added risk of owning generally pushes toward renting. On the other hand, factor in the intangible value you get from actually owning.

I just stepped into the market myself. I'm also putting the plane on leaseback. On leaseback, I'm currently estimating I need 600 hours a year to break even! The monthly payment is actually just noise in all the other expenses.

So, be honest with yourself about what it will really cost.

 

[Henning]

I'll be 58 or 59 when I retire from my current job. Not sure what sector it is called, but I've spoken to a pilot at Surf Air, and they are hiring co-pilots with 300 to 400 hours total time. They fly a fleet of PC-12s in Ca, Nv, and Az. That's why I am looking at a retractable to build time in.

Interesting since their website says 800hr minimums for FO. Have you looked into this service further? There is a good chance they will not last. 58-59 is tough to get hired at.

 

[DoubleD]

You should better define your mission, beyond just building time.

 

[flyingron]

I spent more money because of two things:

1. The gopher engine
2. Having stupid and dangerous Appalachian-American mechanics

The extra expense (insurance/maintenance) on the retract aspect was down in the noise.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Interesting since their website says 800hr minimums for FO. Have you looked into this service further? There is a good chance they will not last. 58-59 is tough to get hired at.

There could always be something else.

He should still proceed with his goals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rundogdave]

I spent more money because of two things:

1. The gopher engine
2. Having stupid and dangerous Appalachian-American mechanics

The extra expense (insurance/maintenance) on the retract aspect was down in the noise.

Gopher Engine??

 

[Henning]

There could always be something else.

He should still proceed with his goals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, not if he has an unrealistic goal that is going to use his flying money in a manner that doesn't get him the most for his money. The reality is that his chances of getting a decent flying job that will show an ROI when at 58 or 59 applying is extremely slim, lottery ticket slim.

Why waste $50k building time and ratings to get a job that doesn't exist when you can take that $50k and have some serious assed fun flying rather than chasing ratings? It's not just the flying part of the rating chase either, there is all the studying as well.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Well, not if he has an unrealistic goal that is going to use his flying money in a manner that doesn't get him the most for his money. The reality is that his chances of getting a decent flying job that will show an ROI when at 58 or 59 applying is extremely slim, lottery ticket slim.



Why waste $50k building time and ratings to get a job that doesn't exist when you can take that $50k and have some serious assed fun flying rather than chasing ratings? It's not just the flying part of the rating chase either, there is all the studying as well.

That is a much different conversation than your previous comment not to pursue his dreams due to your premonition about the future finances of Surf Air.

 

[flyingron]

Gopher Engine??

Geared Lycoming. The GO-435 (or as we tended to call it the Gopher35...get it GO-4, Go-Fer).

 

[rundogdave]

Geared Lycoming. The GO-435 (or as we tended to call it the Gopher35...get it GO-4, Go-Fer).

Ah, I get it. Geared engines no bueno? I've read that TBO is reduced on the GO-300 in the Cessna 175. Are there other issues with geared engines, or just with your particular version?

 

[Hank S]

Renting anything has always been hard to choke down for me. Plus, at a buck forty an hour, if I fly 3 hours a month, that's a payment on a plane. My instructor has been a friend for 45 years, and a 12,000 United/Coast Guard pilot. My lessons cost me a lunch at our favorite BBQ joint. I'm leaning towards buying a hi/perf retractable after I get my currency/competence back, and gaining that experience right off the bat. I'd like to hear peoples experiences jumping into a complex with minimal flight time.

I jumped into my Mooney with a fresh PPL and 62 hours. Insurance was tough the first year (2007); I flew exactly 100 hours the first year and insurance fell 50% the next year. When I got Instruments, insurance fell another third. Then I moved, changed agents and companies, and it's been about $950/year the last two years.

Don't know how much I would have been able to rent, the FBO only had two 172s. Since I owned, I had no reason to not go fly when the weather was nice. There's nothing like a spur if the moment fly out lunch with friends! Or taking the wife to see her parents in 2:30 vs. 7-8 hours' driving, traffic, construction, closed lanes, troopers, etc.

I've pretty much leveled off around 80 hours annually. With my CFII, I think I peaked at 125 hours. Well worth it in increased dispatch rate and more completed flights.

 

[flyingron]

Ah, I get it. Geared engines no bueno? I've read that TBO is reduced on the GO-300 in the Cessna 175. Are there other issues with geared engines, or just with your particular version?

It's not the gearing that's really the problem with the GO-435, it's the fact that pretty much Lycoming disavowed all knowledge of that engine. It's one of those bizarre orphans. The engine itself isn't too bad but the accessories like mags are a real pain. You can't even buy a LEGAL mag for the thing.

The TBO is indeed 1200 hours on the GO-4s but you'd be lucky to get that far. Mine blew up into little pieces at around 500.

Couple that with me being new to airplane ownership and using a incompetent set of mechanics for the first couple of years....the costs can skyrocket.

None of them had any thing to do with the fact it was a retract or even a Navion.