Stupid Instructors

Is this CFI dumb

  • Total clod

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Irresponsible

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • What she did was fine

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I don't see anything wrong with this.

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • Total voters
    9
Can't vote. Sometimes good instructors have problem students and other times crappy instructors have aces.
 
Agree with Ben.

That said, your friend should fly with another instructor before he solos.
 
Obviously it didn't end badly, and it often doesn't- after all, you don't go from flaps 40 to zero in a split second; the airplane starts to speed up as flaps are retracted. Did it inadvertently once on a go-around (damned toggle up/down Cessna flap switch, and I was used to the detent type), It was the first time (and last, I hope)that I'd found myself pitched down, with full power, descending rapidly...but at a very low indicated airspeed. It was, um, interesting, but it was not exactly a close call. I didn't panic and pull the yoke back suddenly, nor did I sit there and let it prang itself onto the runway. I did something in between, as you should when you need to climb, but also need a little airspeed first. Never got lower than 150 feet or so, because the whole thing started as a go-around from short final.

But it's one thing to pull the flaps over the runway, after levelling off with full power and intending to climb... on short final, descending with the power near idle and intending to land, this could be a really bad thing. It all depends on how low and slow you are, I guess, but in general, I think most pilots would agree that once you are configured with flaps for a descent, it's too late to change your mind, and not a good idea. In an emergency, with no power available, it might be a good idea if you realize you have to get more horizontal distance but you are below Vbg and the flaps are causing a steeper glide angle, but that's a survival situation, not a normal situation. And it may not even get you that distance if you are already too low and too slow.

The instructor (it was a rental checkout) made sure I realized it was a potentially dangerous error, although he was calm about it. I'm surprised that any other instructor would not also see it that way.

As for this stuff about kites, etc... I think your friend also needs a better understanding of what gusts really do to an airplane in that situation. He may actually not really understand how a wing gets lift out of airspeed, and how flaps enhance the efficiency of that process. Again, I find it disturbing that an instructor would, apparently, not be quick to enlighten him.
 
There is a serious misunderstanding of some basic aerodynamics and until that misunderstanding is corrected in the students head he should not be soloing. I teach my students to land with full flaps, period. We'll practice partial flap landings but a normal landing for them regardless of the wind is full flaps.

But...one has to realize that a student about to do their first solo isn't going to understand everything. Their knowledge really is very limited and they will say stupid things sometimes. That is why they're solos are controlled and performed in perfect weather.
 
This student is no where near ready to solo based on your description of his flying. Whether or not the instructor is an idiot would have to depend on what she actually said to him. He may not be recalling her instruction accurately so I would be hesitant to condemn her but it sure sounds like he has a way to go before being turned loose on his own.
 
Not knowing the situation, it sounds irresponsible. Your friend sounds like he hasn't been given enough instruction to think through the aerodynamic issues involved. On the other hand, if he was reading enough on the side, he would have known more anyway.

Ryan
 
There are two sides to this story. You are only getting one of them. Before there is another burning of an instructor at the stake around here, you might want to get all the facts. The instructor may be screwed up, the student may be screwed up or both.

BTW, I never commit to signing off students for solo or ratings that are limited my birthdays. It just puts too much pressure on both parties.
 
LearDriver said:
There are two sides to this story. You are only getting one of them. Before there is another burning of an instructor at the stake around here, you might want to get all the facts. The instructor may be screwed up, the student may be screwed up or both.

BTW, I never commit to signing off students for solo or ratings that are limited my birthdays. It just puts too much pressure on both parties.
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I wouldn't much like committing either. I don't tell a student when they're going to solo - I have them do the presolo written when I think they're getting close and I tell them to always be sure they bring their medical certificate. I have the endorsement stickers for them printed and with me. When the moment is right I can have their paperwork done in about 15 seconds and off they go.
 
I'm with Ryan and LearDriver. Doesn't sound like this student has hit the books enough. Hard to say anything bad about the instructor, none of us were there.

I'm not a fan of configuration changes on short final, but I do teach my students to be proficient with full, partial and no flap landings in all wind scenarios. It is important to ensure the student understands why the flaps are there in the first place and the related aerodynamic implications. I do prefer 0-10 degrees in gusty winds greater than 20, as the groundspeed is low anyway and I like the feel.

As the huge German instructor at ATP says, "Teach the student to be limited by the airplane, not the airplane limited by the student."

Stick and Rudder is a good book...
 
Perhaps he flies with one of those instructors that lets you make mistakes so you can learn from them, I know some instructors who do that. I think this mentality is less safe (for obvious reasons) but makes the student more experienced. I'm not sure whether this is a good policy or not, I certainly preferred it when I was going thought my training but everyone is different.

Also perhaps he is not going to solo on tuesday. Quite possible that it's just the plan and it might not happen. If the instructor says that the student is going to solo on the next flight it means that the student still needs to improve on a few things, so chances are that the student will not solo on the next flight.
 
spiderweb said:
Can't vote. Sometimes good instructors have problem students and other times crappy instructors have aces.
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LearDriver said:
There are two sides to this story. You are only getting one of them. Before there is another burning of an instructor at the stake around here, you might want to get all the facts. The instructor may be screwed up, the student may be screwed up or both.

BTW, I never commit to signing off students for solo or ratings that are limited my birthdays. It just puts too much pressure on both parties.
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I agree with all of the above! You could have also asked the question" is the student an idiot?"

Were getting the story second hand and via text at that! The information is just to unreliable given the transmission.
 
Agree with those that are not ready to burn a CFI based on the text messages of some kid that obviously does not understand how airplanes work. What makes you think he understands his instructor? Not meant to disparage your friend; in this context 16 is a "kid" and the other part is self-evident.
 
Hard to read into what a text says. When one of my sales reps sends an e-mail, I can tell if it came from a computer or a phone because so much information is left out when they use a phone; it is more difficult to type on a phone so the e-mails get shorter.

What might have happened is that the wind slowed the plane with respect to the dround on final and the student tried to stretch it out. The student may have gone around (or not) and did it again with no flaps, and picture made sense to him (ground speed and sink rate). He may not have texted all the details.
 
Not voting in this poll.

May or may not be the CFI on this one. Hard to say. But I do believe that a configuration change on short final other than throttle is not a good idea. The airspeed should have been monitored all the way around the pattern and if the plane was already going slow, the last 10 degrees of flaps should have been skipped possibly.


Eventually you learn to tell when you need all the flaps or no flaps. I teach my students as early as I feel comfortable with to land without the flaps just in case that flap motor goes bad. My original CFI did that for me in a Piper Warrior in case that Johnson Bar breaks. :rolleyes: Doing this pre-solo is not a bad idea to me as it prepares them just in case they need it.

Landing the plane a little faster without flaps does not hurt anything when you know what to expect.

Teaching to land without the landing light at night is the one I wait on for awhile. That scared the crap out of me when I was a student. So was the short field dirt road landing he had me do also.

Sometimes having an Ag Pilot for a CFI is a good thing. He knew where we could go for extra stuff.

David
 
Quote:
The wind was gusting 20. One point my airspeed went less than 40 (at that point I pulled up the flaps and nosed down and got my airspeed back)

I would have gone full throttle in a new york minute.. This student needs additional training before he ends up in a pile of aluminum 300 feel short of the threshold... To blame it on the instructor is not the current problem. it is the students grasp on aerodynamics and what keeps a plane in the air. IMHO..
 
Sounds to me like the guys wasn't anticipating the need for more power flying with the heavy head wind. Trying to stay on glide with a normal power setting would result in getting slow and may account for his 'kite like' statements.
 
Well, the instructor does bear the responsiblity for the transfer or failure of transfer of knowledge to the student.

Land, brief, try it again on script.
 
bbchien said:
Well, the instructor does bear the responsiblity for the transfer or failure of transfer of knowledge to the student.

Land, brief, try it again on script.
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A script for flying. hmmm.....


David
 
The actual event was probably fine. Your friend may be a texting retard. Even if it were true, every last word, I commend the CFI for not touching a thing and letting the pre-solo candidate work it out, without turning into a burning pile.

Part of the most difficult thing I see with CFIs, is sitting on one's hands until the bacon really really needs saved. The kid may or may NOT be near ready to solo. It's how the kid perceives it. He may be miles away from solo, or he may in "landing graduate school" already. Can't tell.
 
I'd have a very hard time sitting on my hands as flaps are pulled out at or near stall speed. That said, who knows what really happened.
 
I definitely agree that he needs to know more about aerodynamics before he solos. I just cant believe the instructor would let him bring flaps up when he's slow and then land with less than full flaps. No reason too, especially in a 172 on a day like yesterday. They were flying 172/150 so they dont have alot of extra power to get them out of trouble, but I had no issues landing with 40 degrees of flaps yesterday.
 
Captain said:
Sounds to me like the guys wasn't anticipating the need for more power flying with the heavy head wind. Trying to stay on glide with a normal power setting would result in getting slow and may account for his 'kite like' statements.
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He may also have been unprepared for the slower groundspeed requiring a larger crab angle into a crosswind.

I've heard beginning pilots complain that flying slower with flaps means they have to "work harder" to hold centerline. That could also be his "kite" problem.

Mix the two and the sight picture they've gotten used to in zero-wind conditions isn't there anymore, and is confusing to them.

This kid's seriously confused by wind effects on glide path. He needs to spend a week in Cheyenne, WY. ;)
 
So I went into the flight school today. It is at BAZ and I was out getting the oil off the belly of the plane and I went in to get a drink out of the vending machine. I walked in and there was this really cute girl sitting in the corner and my friend John was behind the counter and we started to chat. I mentioned that Matthews birthday was coming up and he was going to try to solo on that day, and the cute girl in the corner piped up "Matthew is one of my students." My jaw dropped. All I knew was that his instructor was a girl, I didn't know she was a hot one! Of course I was covered head to toe in oil and looked about as terrible as possible. I wouldn't care is she was a **** poor CFI, as long as I got to fly with her!
 
DavidWhite said:
So I went into the flight school today. It is at BAZ and I was out getting the oil off the belly of the plane and I went in to get a drink out of the vending machine. I walked in and there was this really cute girl sitting in the corner and my friend John was behind the counter and we started to chat. I mentioned that Matthews birthday was coming up and he was going to try to solo on that day, and the cute girl in the corner piped up "Matthew is one of my students." My jaw dropped. All I knew was that his instructor was a girl, I didn't know she was a hot one! Of course I was covered head to toe in oil and looked about as terrible as possible. I wouldn't care is she was a **** poor CFI, as long as I got to fly with her!
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Thus, you need to add option #5 to your poll: "who cares? She's hot!"
 
DavidWhite said:
So I went into the flight school today. It is at BAZ and I was out getting the oil off the belly of the plane and I went in to get a drink out of the vending machine. I walked in and there was this really cute girl sitting in the corner and my friend John was behind the counter and we started to chat. I mentioned that Matthews birthday was coming up and he was going to try to solo on that day, and the cute girl in the corner piped up "Matthew is one of my students." My jaw dropped. All I knew was that his instructor was a girl, I didn't know she was a hot one! Of course I was covered head to toe in oil and looked about as terrible as possible. I wouldn't care is she was a **** poor CFI, as long as I got to fly with her!
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No wonder he is saying the things he is saying! He can't pay attention to whats coming out of her mouth! ha :rofl:
 
So you're saying there will be lots of good photos of her pretty face at the eventual funeral?

Nobody looks hot balled up in aluminum at the end of the runway.

Allowing students to retract flaps at 40 knots and slowing, on final in a 172, is a sure fire way to find out.
 
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I know how you can woo her.

Go up to her and say, "soooo, I've got this thread on the interwebs where people vote on just how stupid you are...wanna see?"


Keep us updated please...
 
Captain said:
I know how you can woo her.

Go up to her and say, "soooo, I've got this thread on the interwebs where people vote on just how stupid you are...wanna see?"


Keep us updated please...
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I don't think that will be the best option, however saying "I have an airplane" just might work.
 
DavidWhite said:
I don't think that will be the best option, however saying "I have an airplane" just might work.
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Years ago I knew a young guy who would call his airplane his "chick magnet". Seemed to work too. :)
 
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