Student pilot with a newbie question (sorry, I tried looking)

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by CookieMonstersRevenge, Jul 27, 2020.

  1. CookieMonstersRevenge

    CookieMonstersRevenge Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2020
    Messages:
    3
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NomNomNom
    I am trying to figure out the certifications/ratings that are required for where I want to be, and I have a question about the minimum hours required under part 61. The below was taken from AOPA's website:
    • At least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command. At least 10 of these hours must be in airplanes for an instrument-airplane rating.
    • A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation listed in 61.65(c).
    • At least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for the instrument rating sought.
    Can the 50 hours of xc flight time as PIC include the xc I have flown under my PPL? Or is this an extra 50 hours on top of that, as in it's starting xc all over again.

    Similarly, does the total 250 hours required for a CPL include total hours flown from PPL to CPL, or is this 250 in addition to what was flown prior to CPL?

    I hope this makes sense. Just trying to figure out the minimum I can expect to pay for training. Any advice or guidance on anything or everything is appreciated. The best guidance I received so far is from my dad - don't crash. o_O
     
  2. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    18,807
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    You're talking about the instrument rating. I would suggest that you read 61.65 which is where AOPA is cribbing the above from.

    To answer your first question, your solo student pilot time indeed counts as long as it meets the definition of 61.1 (which are the same as for the private). It used to be that the rules called out that it had to be after you got your private, but this was changed over a decade ago.

    And yes, all your student solo time counts toward the 250 hours in the 61.129, the aeronautical experience for the commercial, as well any time you accumulated in a complex, turbine, or TAA.

    What you can't count is your 3 hours of training in flying by reference to instruments that you did for your private toward your 15 hours of training for your instrument.

    You also have to be careful to meet all the conditions of the "long" cross country for the instrument and the commercial which may have different criteria.
     
    aftCG likes this.
  3. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,122
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    Why not?
     
  4. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    12,082
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    yeah, why not?
     
  5. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,122
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    All of his time counts toward the 250 hours total time. This is not limited to PIC. Non-solo student-pilot time would not be included in the 100 hours required PIC.
     
  6. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    24,716
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ed Frederick
    Because that 3 hours is "flight by reference to instruments" and not "instrument training." It can be counted toward the 40 hours of instrument time though.
     
    midlifeflyer likes this.
  7. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    12,082
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    oh, yeah, duh. sorry, another case of eman reading the question too fast. or, more likely, picking out every couple of words and not really reading the question at all.
     
  8. CookieMonstersRevenge

    CookieMonstersRevenge Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2020
    Messages:
    3
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NomNomNom
    I have the FAA website up, but reading it gives me a headache, so I used AOPA's webpage as a quick reference. But you are correct, I should be referencing the FAA regulation and making a habit of doing so.

    Sweet!

    I initially questioned these 3 hours because I want to take what I can get. But common sense kicked in, and in the end I figured this wouldn't count.

    I will definitely keep an eye on this one. Thanks!
     
  9. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,122
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    What's the difference? I see no requirement in 61.65 to obtain "instrument training."


    Paragraph (c) requires that training includes training on flight by reference to instruments:


    Which is also required to obtain a private pilot rating:

    Is there an FAA reference that says these are different? I am sure there are situations where the time might not count (e.g., your primary instructor is not a CFII), but I see no reason in the regs why that must be the case.
     
  10. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    18,807
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    Because, the FAA says that the private "flight by refernece to instruments" training in 61.109 n doesn't meet their definition of "instrument training" for anything else (particularly 61.65). Even if it was done by a CFII, it would have to specifically be logged as instrument training to count for the instrument, and usinge the verbiage that 61.109 wants for the private.

    Perhaps you can write it so that it meets both and the instructor is autorized for both, but it usually isn't.
     
  11. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,122
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    Can you point me to the FAA reference for that?
     
  12. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    18,807
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020 at 5:21 AM
    Lindberg likes this.