Student Pilot Question

[Geico266]

A student pilot buddy (soloed 10 hours ago) of mine wants me to fly him to a B-fast flyin and I have a few questions.

1. Can he go as PIC if I'm in the plane? PPL, not a CFI. (Pretty sure the answer is no.)

2. Can he sit left seat if I'm PIC?

 

[ScottM]

The only time a student pilot can log PIC is when solo. HE cannot act as PIC unless there is a CFI on board doing training. He can still fly you, form the left seat, but you are PIC and he can log nothing.

Now I am off to look that up in the FARs

 

[ScottM]

The only time a student pilot can log PIC is when solo. HE cannot act as PIC unless there is a CFI on board doing training. He can still fly you, form the left seat, but you are PIC and he can log nothing.

Now I am off to look that up in the FARs

Here we go

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.30

So iii does state that he can log PIC when under going dual instruction, I was incorrect on that issue.

 

[mjburian]

Here we go


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.30

So iii does state that he can log PIC when under going dual instruction, I was incorrect on that issue.

Scott, I'm not sure if I'm misreading what you're saying, but since those are "and" conditions, the way I read the reg is that the only time a student pilot can log PIC time is if all 3 of the following conditions are true:

1) They are the sole occupant
2) They are signed off for solo flight
3) They are undergoing flight training (in this case, solo flight training)

That may be what you were saying, but it wasn't clear in my initial reading. If you disagree, feel free to correct me where I am (very likely) wrong.

 

[mjburian]

A student pilot buddy (soloed 10 hours ago) of mine wants me to fly him to a B-fast flyin and I have a few questions.

1. Can he go as PIC if I'm in the plane? PPL, not a CFI. (Pretty sure the answer is no.)

2. Can he sit left seat if I'm PIC?

I think these are the answers (again, someone enlighten me if these are incorrect):

1. No. See 61.51(e)4. It is my belief that this doesn't change if you are a CFI. The way I read the reg, being the sole occupant is one of the requirements for student pilot PIC time.

2. There is no reg requiring you to sit in the left seat as PIC. But, consider whether or not you can safely control the plane from the right seat. I hear it's not much different (just use opposite hands for things), but I personally wouldn't attempt it without first going up with an instructor to verify that I am competent from that seat.

 

[jesse]

1. Can he go as PIC if I'm in the plane? PPL, not a CFI. (Pretty sure the answer is no.)

No

2. Can he sit left seat if I'm PIC?

Yes

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Here we go


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.30

So iii does state that he can log PIC when under going dual instruction, I was incorrect on that issue.

No, you were initially correct. Look again. ALL of those conditions have to apply. The student may NOT log PIC when anyone else is in the plane, even a CFI.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

A student pilot buddy (soloed 10 hours ago) of mine wants me to fly him to a B-fast flyin and I have a few questions.

1. Can he go as PIC if I'm in the plane? PPL, not a CFI. (Pretty sure the answer is no.)

2. Can he sit left seat if I'm PIC?

No and Yes. But how comfortable are you in the Right Seat? Remember YOU would be the PIC.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The only time a student pilot can log PIC is when solo.

True.

HE cannot act as PIC unless there is a CFI on board doing training.

Incorrect. When there is a CFI on board during training, the CFI acts as PIC. The student can also only act as PIC when solo.

He can still fly you, form the left seat,

Yup...

but you are PIC and he can log nothing.

Actually, neither one of them can log it.

Here we go

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.30

So iii does state that he can log PIC when under going dual instruction, I was incorrect on that issue.

No - You missed the "and" at the end of (ii). *All three* conditions must be true for the student to log PIC: They're the sole human occupant of the airplane, they have a current solo endorsement, and they're undergoing training for a certificate or rating. (Not just getting solo-endorsed over and over again, I guess.)

Marty absolutely nailed it:

Scott, I'm not sure if I'm misreading what you're saying, but since those are "and" conditions, the way I read the reg is that the only time a student pilot can log PIC time is if all 3 of the following conditions are true:

1) They are the sole occupant
2) They are signed off for solo flight
3) They are undergoing flight training (in this case, solo flight training)

I think these are the answers (again, someone enlighten me if these are incorrect):

1. No. See 61.51(e)4. It is my belief that this doesn't change if you are a CFI. The way I read the reg, being the sole occupant is one of the requirements for student pilot PIC time.

2. There is no reg requiring you to sit in the left seat as PIC. But, consider whether or not you can safely control the plane from the right seat. I hear it's not much different (just use opposite hands for things), but I personally wouldn't attempt it without first going up with an instructor to verify that I am competent from that seat.

 

[ScottM]

The last one is what threw me.

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

It makes it sound that unless there is training going on a SP cannot log PIC. I was thinking that training involved having someone actually teaching you something. Ergo a CFI on board. If a SP just went up to punch holes in the sky and look around he could not log it. The other thing is it sounds as if a SP had their solo endorsement but no intention to ever get their rating that they would never be allowed to log PIC.

But I think Marty and Greg are right all three apply, there is an 'and' with the list, not an 'or'. It is just that the third item is kind of senseless. All a SP would have to say is that he intends to get a rating 'someday' and take a lesson every once and while and he fulfill that section.

 

[ScottM]

Actually, neither one of them can log it.

Want to explain that?

If a student is on board and flying the other non-CFI person must be PIC and thus can log PIC for the flight even though he is not sole manipulator. If no one, by your supposition can log PIC are you also saying no one is acting as PIC?

This case is similar to just going for a ride with a non-rated passenger on board and letting them touch the controls and fly the plane. You as the pilot are the PIC.

 

[Geico266]

No and Yes. But how comfortable are you in the Right Seat? Remember YOU would be the PIC.

No problem. I routinely fly from the right seat to remain current, in case I need to land the plane if someone else (left) cannot.

Thanks to all for replies, I really apprciate it. I know this is a no brainer question, but somehow I always overthink this stuff.

Happy 4th everyone!

 

[poadeleted20]

1. Can he go as PIC if I'm in the plane? PPL, not a CFI. (Pretty sure the answer is no.)

You are correct -- he cannot be PIC if there's anyone else in the plane.

2. Can he sit left seat if I'm PIC?

Legally, yes, as long as you have fully functioning flight controls at your seat and power controls within your reach. However, he cannot log the time. In addition, I strongly advise against this for safety reasons unless you are trained to fly cross-cockpit as well as evaluate the performance of another pilot and know when and how to take over in an adverse situation (i.e., have flight instructor type training if not the CFI ticket). Better to let your pal ride shotgun while you fly, especially if he hasn't flown in 10 years.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Want to explain that?

Based on 61.51(e), THE regulation concerning LOGGING of PIC, just who COULD log the time?

If a student is on board and flying the other non-CFI person must be PIC

Yes. ACTING PIC

and thus can log PIC for the flight even though he is not sole manipulator.

How do you figure that? It is NOT a two pilot operation.

If no one, by your supposition can log PIC are you also saying no one is acting as PIC?

Why would you say that? How many threads are there on this and other boards that make the point that ACTING and LOGGING are NOT related?

This case is similar to just going for a ride with a non-rated passenger on board and letting them touch the controls and fly the plane. You as the pilot are the PIC.

Yes you are. But technically you cannot log what does not fit in 61.51(e).

In otherwords, Scott, if you can find justification for your position in 61.51, please let us know.

 

[ScottM]

How many threads are there on this and other boards that make the point that ACTING and LOGGING are NOT related?

Doh! But I would have appreciated a less snarky response Greg. You have been jumping down people's throats a lot lately. Remember we all make mistakes.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Doh! But I would have appreciated a less snarky response Greg. You have been jumping down people's throats a lot lately. Remember we all make mistakes.

Sorry. Don't mean to be. Just explaining.

Unfortunately intent does not come across online very well.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Want to explain that?

If a student is on board and flying the other non-CFI person must be PIC and thus can log PIC for the flight even though he is not sole manipulator.

Simple. There is nothing in 61.51(e) that allows you to log PIC simply because you are acting as PIC in a single-pilot-required operation.

It's just one of those FAR quirks.

If no one, by your supposition can log PIC are you also saying no one is acting as PIC?

Not at all.

As we've been over many times in the past, there is a difference between logging and acting as PIC. There is *always* one acting PIC. One and only one. However, in various situations there can be anywhere from zero to three people logging PIC.

This case is similar to just going for a ride with a non-rated passenger on board and letting them touch the controls and fly the plane. You as the pilot are the PIC.

You're right, it's pretty much exactly the same in the eyes of the FAA. If you're giving someone an airplane ride and you let them take the controls, technically you cannot log the time that your passenger is manipulating the controls. Silly, huh?

 

[poadeleted20]

If a student is on board and flying the other non-CFI person must be PIC and thus can log PIC for the flight even though he is not sole manipulator. If no one, by your supposition can log PIC ... This case is similar to just going for a ride with a non-rated passenger on board and letting them touch the controls and fly the plane. You as the pilot are the PIC.

I would point out that in the cases described here, a strict readin of the regulation tells us that nobody can log any time in this situation. However, a 1977 Chief Counsel interpretation said that when the person manipulating the controls is not a rated pilot, the rated pilot acting as PIC can log the time anyway. One can only guess at the logic of that, but mine is that the Chief Counsel decided that it was absurd to have a situation in which nobody can log the time.

But unless we're talking about one of those cases where the pilot failed to secure it during handpropping and the plane took off unoccupied, somebody must be acting as PIC even if not logging the time.

 

[Doggtyred]

Dont forget the little detail between LOGGING PIC and BEING PIC.

There can BE only one PIC.
Multiple people can log PIC in a given plane on a given flight.

As for right seat/left seat/front seat/back seat.. If you can safely operate the aircraft from where you are seated, it doesn't matter which seat you are in... or he is in.

I've gotten quite comfortable in the right seat and its not rocket science.., but my personal limitations include having a licensed pilot (and with category/class appropriate) as a passenger in the left seat.. The passenger may not be checked out in that particular plane by the rental outfit, but the rental outfit knows that I'm flying from the right.