Student Pilot In Big Trouble...

[skywolf2108]

Good morning/evening to all seniors pilot,

I am a foreign student pilot currently training in Arizona for my ppl, ifr, cpl and other qualifications. Today was my last solo cross country before I go on an FAA checkride for my ppl, unfortunately it did not go well, my vfr flight planning did not expect the weather to deteriorate so badly, at the altitude I'm used to fly pilotage and dead reckoning was covered by clouds and I have to constantly change altitude to see what was ahead of me (I should have went back but I was too eager to fly) added to that I have a lot of difficulty contacting ATC agencies, the reception was really bad and I ended up not using flight following. Prior to this flight i got wx briefed but no notams was issued concerning milatry activity at Gilabend.

My route of flight was from eastern central phoenix up to wickenburg (e25) to gilabend (e63) i did obtained a flight transition through Luke App to fly to the Buckeye VOR and then down south to Gilabend (my apologies if any1 not farmiliar with this general area). During the time I was in the air to Gilabend the visibility went down quickly and i had to lower myself down to follow ground references to Gilabend at the supposed time of arrival I could not Gilabend and flew high up circled to find the airport but to no luck so I headed back to my home base. Sadly during the time I wandered myself at Gilabend, right next to the uncontrolled airport is Gilabend's afb, the 2 airports are 1-2 miles apart, there was military a/c exercise in the restricted R-2305 R2304 and I flew right in one of those with the mindset that I havent got into Gilabend yet...(I had the afb freq to monitor on rad 1 but never heard from there nor did i make any initial contact) so they have to hold the excercise and waited for like 5 mins for me to get out, I never heard, saw or knew anyone was there but when I got intouch with Phoenix app they told me I had a pilot deviation and had to call the Airforce safety manager.

I filled out the ars NASA form and some internal safety form and talked to the afb and my school chiefs, this was considered a serious mishap caused by me, I explained to the best of my ability what I did, listed out what i should do instead and gave them my sincerest apologies, still I am confused and scared for the damage it can cause to my pilot certificate and everybody that was involved, I felt like i put myself in danger and others in trouble because I decided to go ahead to fly in deteorating wx. I just wanted to ask any pilots farmiliar with this and wanted to know what actions am I looking at taken against me?

Sorry for this long windy post and thank you for reading and helping a student pilot out.

 

[MachFly]

I personally do not have any experience flying though USAF's practice areas, but I think unless you caused a dangerous situation this should not be a major problem. I flew around that area today and your right the weather was not the best for a VFR flight, not even close, given that you are a student pilot with not much flight time logged I'm sure they will understand.

You said you spoke to someone from the Air Force, how did that conversation go?

 

[skywolf2108]

Hi MachFly,
I was flying in a little diamond 20 with around 40-50 hours total and 7 hours xc solo experience. We called the AFB straight away, he was calm on the phone, he stated that no-one was harmed, they had 3 radars on me and had some sort of tracking when I left that airspace, he mentioned that he had to follow up with some paperwork with the FAA and told me to expect some calls in the next few days depending how serious the FAA sees this might get investiagated further, he also mentioned they published internal notams but not to the public and asked was i briefed by a flight briefer, i said no because there was no notams or tfr...

thank you for your insights

 

[MachFly]

Hi MachFly,
I was flying in a little diamond 20 with around 40-50 hours total and 7 hours xc solo experience. We called the AFB straight away, he was calm on the phone, he stated that no-one was harmed, they had 3 radars on me and had some sort of tracking when I left that airspace, he mentioned that he had to follow up with some paperwork with the FAA and told me to expect some calls in the next few days depending how serious the FAA sees this might get investiagated further, he also mentioned they published internal notams but not to the public and asked was i briefed by a flight briefer, i said no because there was no notams or tfr...

thank you for your insights

That's good, I'm glad to hear the Air Force was not "p1$$ed off" at you. In case if the FAA decides to go after you NASA should help you out.
Also given that your student pilot I don't think FAA can do anything, I never heard of anyone loosing their student pilot licence.
I have no idea about the instructor though.
Perhaps some else from the forum could add some more information on this.


Continue working towards your PPL, don't let this stop you.

 

[skywolf2108]

Well, the things is I was pic, I am responsible, I am aware of the the situation and I will gladly take all the blames for things I did but it kills me inside to know that my instructor and the one who authorized my flight will also get into this mess (I respect them and love them very much for what they have done for me). I don't know how can I look them in the eyes anymore.

Thank you for your response Mr. MachFly

 

[sba55]

I personally do not have any experience flying though USAF's practice areas

That's good. Flying in active R- airspace without clearance is quite serious - this isn't a MOA.

OP - I don't think you should blame yourself too much. You're still learning and it sounds like you tried to do the right things....

 

[dmspilot]

Looking at the map on skyvector. Where is your home base? Why didn't you take advantage of the VOR right at your destination to keep track of your position?

 

[skywolf2108]

My home base is close to gateway (iwa), this is my longest xc flight yet, i used vor for getting to buckeye but discontinued using it because i thought i can manage to the destination with dead reckoning and pilotage, like i said in my post it was my bad decision that contributed to this mishap.

 

[dmspilot]

i used vor for getting to buckeye but discontinued using it because i thought i can manage to the destination with dead reckoning and pilotage

I flew right in one of those with the mindset that I havent got into Gilabend yet

So you hadn't reached your ETA yet? Or did you keep flying after your ETA had passed?

 

[skywolf2108]

I was hesistant with my ETA at the time at Gilabend so I went up and circled to find what I was looking for, it was rather hard to see and I cannot visually confirm things until I got really close, during that time I wandered directly south into that R airspace. Thank you sir for asking, I learnt that I should have used all available resources for nav aid.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Wolf,

I think that one of the best things that you have going for you in this situation is that you are dealing with it in a professional manner and are showing that you are contrite.

Many situations like this in flight as well as business or other parts of life are made WAY worse by denial or making yourself be seen as an adversary.

Your attitude should be commended, and I'm sure that you learned alot from the experience and won't let it happen again. Best of luck with it.

Doc

 

[RotorAndWing]

Wolf,

I think that one of the best things that you have going for you in this situation is that you are dealing with it in a professional manner and are showing that you are contrite.

Many situations like this in flight as well as business or other parts of life are made WAY worse by denial or making yourself be seen as an adversary.

Your attitude should be commended, and I'm sure that you learned alot from the experience and won't let it happen again. Best of luck with it.

Doc

 

[murphey]

Another learning experience to call WXBRIEF at the last possible moment to check on any changes to airspace. Just because there's no NOTAM or TFR listed doesn't mean one won't magically appear. I've learned (also the hard way) no matter what I use to check weather & TFRs, I either call or check DUATS at the last minute, just in case. That way there's a record that you checked a legal source of information.

 

[EppyGA]

I was hesistant with my ETA at the time at Gilabend so I went up and circled to find what I was looking for, it was rather hard to see and I cannot visually confirm things until I got really close, during that time I wandered directly south into that R airspace. Thank you sir for asking, I learnt that I should have used all available resources for nav aid.

The RR tracks would have been a good identifier to not have flown south of. They run just south of the Gilabend airport.

 

[taters]

Good on you to file the NASA form...(it offers enforcement protection for most situations)that with the fact that you are a student pilot and have a good attitude likely means nothing more than some verbal counseling from the FSDO


....At the very worst (unlikely), you might get a "warning letter" that expires 2 years. This letter will be sealed and is not visible or retrievable to anyone but the FAA. But take a lesson from this....FAA violations no longer expire in 5 years now. After the Colgan crash the FAA suspended the expiration of violations..so they get to "follow" you now forever on your PRIA and FOIA pre-hire check that airlines do.

 

[poadeleted20]

One problem you're going to have when the FAA calls is your statement to the Air Force that you did not obtain a telephonic briefing. Obviously you did obtain a briefing, or your instructor would not have signed off on your flight planning (at least, I hope that's true), so you're going to have to explain to the FAA that you did obtain a briefing, just not telephonic.

The other issue (and one for which your instructor will also have to answer, as s/he signed your flight planning endorsment for the flight) is that R-2304/2305 are listed on your aeronautical chart as active Mon-Sat 0630-2400, and it's only other times beyond those hours which will be listed in the NOTAMs. Thus, you should have known that those areas were active during your flight whether the briefing said anything about them or not.

Clearly you have learned a good lesson about continuing into deteriorating weather. There are many who don't survive that lesson. Also, as a Student Pilot, your instructor carries some of the responsibility for this, particularly as regards your apparent lack of understanding of how to determine whether R-areas are active or not (it's not just NOTAMs) -- the FAA will almost certainly be talking to both your regular instructor and the one who signed for your flight planning for this trip (if they aren't the same person).

Filing the ASRS report was a good idea, and may avoid a certificate action, but it won't stop the FAA from pursuing an enforcement action which would remain on your record forever. The best outcome for you will come if you can convince the FAA that you have a positive safety attitude, and want to learn from this and improve your knowledge and skill. Getting with your instructor for some remedial XC training (including flight planning, inflight decisions, and navigation) before the FAA comes looking for you can help. If you are honest, forthright, and open about how this happened and what you plan to do about it, the Inspector investigating can downgrade this to an administrative action such as a Warning Notice, counseling, or remedial training, which is not listed as a "violation" and will stay in your FAA records only two years before being expunged.

One more point -- it doesn't matter what the Air Force said to you -- if the controller sends a Pilot Deviation report, that goes to the FAA, not the Air Force. Also, the Air Force does not take action against civilian pilots -- they just pass the information to the FAA, which then decides what to do about it, and if the FAA does decide to do something, the FAA does it.

 

[L.Adamson]

I find it interesting, that for student pilots, some instructors will maintain the thought, that a GPS should remain in the flight bag, for a period of time. Of course, a good GPS will outline in perfect detail, all of these military boundaries (as well as other restricted airspace). And with an addition such as XM weather................active TFR's will pop up, not to mention knowing what the weather is for a hundred or more miles ahead of you. In addition to current altimeter settings, winds, etc.

I don't have to call an FSS at the last moment for a update of TFRs and weather. I prefer to get them in real time, in the cockpit, as the flight progresses. My GPS will do just that. I do pour over a sectional and get current weather, notams, and TFRs on line..........before flight. ALL long distance cross countries are outlined & planned on my sectionals beforehand.

However, in some weather situations, which I've certainly encountered, I don't have to worry about stepping into a miitary airspace, when I'm threading my way between it's boundary, and a nearby mountain range. Out here in the mountain west, it's very common to see narrow corridoors between military airspace and rising terrain. In a situation such as this, the GPS with instant awareness, is much of an improvement over trying to identify terrain that looks much the same, or attemting to triangulate VOR's that can't be picked up anyway, due to mountains.

So really? Why is it, that GPS is sometimes regulated as a "backup". Why can't it be taught with it's proper use, on day one. Or a least of the first day, that the instructor begins to teach the principals of navigation. GPS is not a "cheat" box. It's just a fantastic improvement over the older methods of "electronic" navigation.

L.Adamson

 

[Fearless Tower]

So really? Why is it, that GPS is sometimes regulated as a "backup". Why can't it be taught with it's proper use, on day one. Or a least of the first day, that the instructor begins to teach the principals of navigation. GPS is not a "cheat" box. It's just a fantastic improvement over the older methods of "electronic" navigation.

You really need to do both - teach them how to use the GPS and teach them how to function without it. The challenge with teaching the GPS first is that the student becomes overly reliant on it which makes it more challenging to truly comprehend or be proficient in the old style stuff.

I used to see this problem back when we were learning Celestial Nav on the ships.....it was way too easy when you had access to GPS position data - students could work the problems backward. The only way the instructors could ensure that people were truly doing the work was to take the GPS away and make us figure out where we were without it.

GPS is great and should indeed be taught to primary students...but you still have to know how to function without it. It won't always be there and even when it is, it is NOT failsafe.

 

[ejensen]

There are TFRs that FSS will know about sometimes several hours before they get out to web sites, XM and other electronic media. These are the emergency TFRs for fire, law enforcement, etc. I worked fire dispatch/spotting with the USFS. We would request a TFR within minutes of requesting aircraft for a fire. It would quite a while before they showed up on DUATs. Usually less than an hour but sometimes more. FSS knew about it and we learned to call ATC directly.

 

[skywolf2108]

Thank you Doc and others for your words of encouragement.

L.Adamson: Sir it's funny how you spoke out about the gps, I was gonna save up this month to buy a portable gps but decided not to in the end because this is my last xc before i move up to the diamond 40 where gps are installed.

Captain Ron: Would you mind shed some light on what is telephonic briefing? I was taught to either use DUATS or call briefer on flight service, on that particular day I filed my 3 flight plans and got briefed on the wx ahead, just 20 mins before my takeoff. Thank you very much. I now spend more time learning all that is said on the sectionals to avoid this ever happen again.

 

[poadeleted20]

Captain Ron: Would you mind shed some light on what is telephonic briefing? I was taught to either use DUATS or call briefer on flight service,

"Telephonic" means "by telephone," i.e., calling the briefer at Flight Service.

on that particular day I filed my 3 flight plans and got briefed on the wx ahead, just 20 mins before my takeoff.

How did you get that briefing (calling FSS, online with DUATS, etc), and if you did that only 20 minutes before takeoff, how did you have time to fully plan that flight based on that data and for your instructor to review all your planning (including weather) and enter the required endorsement in your logbook before takeoff? I find it takes me at least that long just to go over a Student Pilot's planning before signing that endorsement, and that doesn't include the time it took the Student Pilot to evaluate that briefing information and incorporate it into his/her planning.

I now spend more time learning all that is said on the sectionals to avoid this ever happen again.

Document that! Get with an instructor to go over that, and have that ground training entered and signed by the instructor in your logbook. That will make a significant impression on the investigating Inspector. Also document training on inflight decision making and obtaining weather updates in flight.

 

[JeffDG]

Thank you Doc and others for your words of encouragement.

L.Adamson: Sir it's funny how you spoke out about the gps, I was gonna save up this month to buy a portable gps but decided not to in the end because this is my last xc before i move up to the diamond 40 where gps are installed.

Captain Ron: Would you mind shed some light on what is telephonic briefing? I was taught to either use DUATS or call briefer on flight service, on that particular day I filed my 3 flight plans and got briefed on the wx ahead, just 20 mins before my takeoff. Thank you very much. I now spend more time learning all that is said on the sectionals to avoid this ever happen again.

I think Ron misunderstood when you were asked if you'd been briefed on the NOTAM and said "No" that you had not called FSS for a briefing...If I understand you correctly, you called FSS, but they did not mention any NOTAMS or TFRs, correct?

 

[TripleZ]

Thank you Doc and others for your words of encouragement.

L.Adamson: Sir it's funny how you spoke out about the gps, I was gonna save up this month to buy a portable gps but decided not to in the end because this is my last xc before i move up to the diamond 40 where gps are installed.

Captain Ron: Would you mind shed some light on what is telephonic briefing? I was taught to either use DUATS or call briefer on flight service, on that particular day I filed my 3 flight plans and got briefed on the wx ahead, just 20 mins before my takeoff. Thank you very much. I now spend more time learning all that is said on the sectionals to avoid this ever happen again.

1-800-WX-BRIEF is the standard phone call flight briefing. Just call, get a standard briefing and its on record. I got out of the habit when I got the iPad, but now still use it as a double check.

If you KNOW the weather is going to be good, you can just get a abbreviated briefing for NOTAMS, TAFs, and active MOAs.

Takes 5 minutes, they're typically happy to talk through a flight plan, and it can put you at ease for weather and NOTAMS that you didn't miss anything.

 

[TMetzinger]

Now, if an R area is "normally" hot, they won't mention that in a briefing - you're supposed to look it up on the chart. Only if the R-area is made hot by NOTAM will FSS tell you about it.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think Ron misunderstood when you were asked if you'd been briefed on the NOTAM and said "No" that you had not called FSS for a briefing...If I understand you correctly, you called FSS, but they did not mention any NOTAMS or TFRs, correct?

Right -- what the OP wrote was:

he also mentioned they published internal notams but not to the public and asked was i briefed by a flight briefer, i said no because there was no notams or tfr

...which I thought meand s/he hadn't received a briefing from FSS, although it might mean s/he got a DUATS briefing but not one from an FSS briefer. Either way, that statement will be on tape, and if the FAA Inspector hears it, s/he will likely think it means the OP did not get a briefing at all (which would be real bad thing). It will be important when the FAA Inspector calls, to make sure the Inspector understands that the OP meant only that the briefer said nothing about NOTAM's on the R-areas, not that s/he did not get a briefing at all.

BTW, I also foresee FAA interest in the OP's instructors, but that's another story and not the OP's concern.

 

[dell30rb]

1-800-WX-BRIEF is the standard phone call flight briefing. Just call, get a standard briefing and its on record. I got out of the habit when I got the iPad, but now still use it as a double check.

If you KNOW the weather is going to be good, you can just get a abbreviated briefing for NOTAMS, TAFs, and active MOAs.

Takes 5 minutes, they're typically happy to talk through a flight plan, and it can put you at ease for weather and NOTAMS that you didn't miss anything.

If the weather is good I just give my tail number, route of flight and ask for an abbreviated briefing "Notams and TFR's Please". Takes less than 5 minutes. Some of the briefer's will drone on for 20 minutes giving you the weather report when its good VFR everywhere along your route and forecasted to stay that way

In addition if I am flying through a MOA or R-Area (when not listed as active) I always ask for flight following and / or ask the nearest approach facility or FSS if they are active.

 

[JeffDG]

Right -- what the OP wrote was:

Give him a break...I don't think English is his first language, and some of the nuances that you can use reading meaning in with a native speaker may lead you astray...

 

[poadeleted20]

Give him a break...I don't think English is his first language, and some of the nuances that you can use reading meaning in with a native speaker may lead you astray...

...which is why I asked the OP what s/he really meant, and amended my answer when I got that response.

 

[poadeleted20]

If the weather is good I just give my tail number, route of flight and ask for an abbreviated briefing "Notams and TFR's Please". Takes less than 5 minutes. Some of the briefer's will drone on for 20 minutes giving you the weather report when its good VFR everywhere along your route and forecasted to stay that way

For an experienced pilot, that may be enough. For a Student Pilot on a solo XC, it's not -- a full standard briefing is essential.

 

[skywolf2108]

Captain Ron, I planned everything the night before my flight except the weather input, my flight was at 7am so i woke up at 4 and looked for winds aloft (WCA), measure engine performance, magnetic variances and deviations, tas, gs and all that before I leave for dispatch.

At dispatch I called for a briefer, filed with him 3 flight plans, he told me no adverse wx, no tfrs, no notams and the wind will slightly pick up on the South West side of the state. So everything was on tape, my safety manager also photocopied all I wrote down during that weather brief. Did i confuse you sir?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Thank you for posting this, and good luck to you. I know a lot of student pilots read this site and they are learning by reading.

 

[skywolf2108]

I think Ron misunderstood when you were asked if you'd been briefed on the NOTAM and said "No" that you had not called FSS for a briefing...If I understand you correctly, you called FSS, but they did not mention any NOTAMS or TFRs, correct?

Yes that is correct, I called WX Briefing and no Notams or TFR and the AFB did mention they do have internal notams but it takes sometimes before that information goes to the public, again I have very little experience in flying, in this case flying in the usa, I tried reciting to the best of my ability so I can hear what others have to say about this case. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[SCCutler]

I may have missed this, but were you using ATC advisory services ("Flight Following")? If not, this is something you should seriously consider doing in the future, as the controllers can be an invaluable aid to you when you try to run afoul of some airspace.

Good on you for stepping up and "owning" the problem - that's shows a good safety attitude.

Stay in touch!

 

[skywolf2108]

Rangers Baseball: on my nasa form, I wrote that I have a lot of difficulty getting in touch with anybody (Flight Watch, Flight Following) the radio reception was the worst I have experienced, took me about 5 times to get my flight activated, after that I tried flight following and it was even harder, both sides couldn't understand at all what the other said...and then it took me 3 times just go get my call sign through to Luke App where I had my first flight transition.

Thinking back about that flight, when I climbed to cruise, my sight picture of the sky was so much different, clouds was on my windshield at low altitude and gray sky ahead. I shared this with my classmates who will start flying soon and suggested just to turn back, for some odd reasons, I went on, like I said before I was always too eager to fly

 

[SkyHog]

Hi MachFly,
I was flying in a little diamond 20 with around 40-50 hours total and 7 hours xc solo experience. We called the AFB straight away, he was calm on the phone, he stated that no-one was harmed, they had 3 radars on me and had some sort of tracking when I left that airspace, he mentioned that he had to follow up with some paperwork with the FAA and told me to expect some calls in the next few days depending how serious the FAA sees this might get investiagated further, he also mentioned they published internal notams but not to the public and asked was i briefed by a flight briefer, i said no because there was no notams or tfr...

thank you for your insights

I know exactly where you're talking about (and presumably, from the details, I know the flight school you are flying for as well).

Unless something has changed, last time I went through that area, the AFB practice area was an Alert Area, not a Restricted Area, right? If that's changed, my apologies, but if its still an Alert area, no harm no foul.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I know exactly where you're talking about (and presumably, from the details, I know the flight school you are flying for as well).

Unless something has changed, last time I went through that area, the AFB practice area was an Alert Area, not a Restricted Area, right? If that's changed, my apologies, but if its still an Alert area, no harm no foul.

The area around Luke is indeed still an Alert Area, but the OP busted the Restricted areas south of GBN.

 

[poadeleted20]

Captain Ron, I planned everything the night before my flight except the weather input, my flight was at 7am so i woke up at 4 and looked for winds aloft (WCA), measure engine performance, magnetic variances and deviations, tas, gs and all that before I leave for dispatch.

At dispatch I called for a briefer, filed with him 3 flight plans, he told me no adverse wx, no tfrs, no notams and the wind will slightly pick up on the South West side of the state. So everything was on tape, my safety manager also photocopied all I wrote down during that weather brief. Did i confuse you sir?

A little bit, initially, yes. But it's clear you did the rest of that part right. The issues in which the FAA will be interested with you will be your lack of understanding (until now) about where to find published (as opposed to NOTAM'd) R-area active times, your inflight decision-making, your navigational skills, and your knowledge of inflight weather update information. Be humble, be honest, and do what you can now to improve your knowledge and skills in those areas now, and it will all work out.

 

[skywolf2108]

Mr Nick: Naw too bad I wish it was an alert area, it says Restricted right on it on my update sectional and we confirmed that with the safety manager. That particular area is known for pilot deviations, the uncontrolled airport is covered by the sand so it matches perfectly with the wasteland, on a clear (and i mean severe clear in Arizona) you have to be around traffic pattern distance to see it, you just know it's up ahead somewhere with a lighter color compared to the sand and your turn for base have to be real tight so you won't touch the Gilabend's AFB which is 1-2 miles away.

 

[MachFly]

L.Adamson: Sir it's funny how you spoke out about the gps, I was gonna save up this month to buy a portable gps but decided not to in the end because this is my last xc before i move up to the diamond 40 where gps are installed.

Does your DA20 have the instruments to get a DME?

Perhaps it will be easier to you to take your checkride in the 20 and than switch to the 40? When you do switch you'll not only have to learn the way the new airframe performs but also the constant speed prop and the glass cockpit. I think it would be easier to take a checkride in an airplane your more familiar with.

 

[dell30rb]

For an experienced pilot, that may be enough. For a Student Pilot on a solo XC, it's not -- a full standard briefing is essential.

very good point

My flight school had a rule that a student pilot had to obtain a standard briefing on the phone before any flight - even a trip around the pattern.

Good for keeping me safe and out of trouble as a student.

I guess my point to the OP was to show that there is no substitute for checking notams and tfr's over the phone. Its a good cover-your-ass move and occasionally there are notams critical to safety or navigation. Its hard to separate them by just glancing over the DUATS stuff..