Student Pilot Cross Countries

bqmassey

bqmassey

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Brandon
Solo'd Saturday (Yay!!)

From what I've read in the regs, I need to log some dual cross-country time, complete a dual night cross-country, and do a solo cross-country.

My instructor mentioned doing a short dual XC, and then the same XC, solo... followed by a longer dual XC, and then that same XC, solo. I've heard of that pattern before in other people's training.

Is that simply a common method of checking off those aeronautical experience requirements, or is there regulation that encourages that pattern?
 
Your CFI wants to make sure you don't screw up.

I do two short cross countries which then I have the student repeat. On the long cross country it is over new territory. I save the night cross country for closer to the check ride.
 
My CFI went went on the short one together, then I went alone. Then we went on a longer one and he got me lost in the mountains, I found my way out. Next solo XC was to an airport I had never been to before.
 
For my sport, I did a cross country with my instructor that had 4 legs (W29-CGE-SBY-GED-W29), and then solo I just did an out and back to one of those airports (W29-GED), repeating one of the legs we had flown together. I got my sport, and now that I have the money, am going for private, so I could do whatever I wanted for my private cross countries. I did a shortish there and back (W29-W41) and a nice long one in three states, seeing a good friend at one of the stops (W29-58M-OQN-LNS-33N-W29).

I always found cross countries fun. Going places I haven't been before is a hoot.
 
We combined the night and dual X/C in one trip one night. He told me to plan a short and a long solo X/C and he'll sign me off. I suspect it may have helped that I cold show him I don't get lost when we were on the way south navigating by pilotage. Twice he was pretty certain that we were significantly off course. Both times he caught me at a time when I hadn't been cross checking the chart for a bit, and both times I could establish within a minute that we were exactly where I said we'd be

I'm still not sure whether he actually thought we were off course, or was seeing if he could convince me that we were to see a what I'd do.
 
bqmassey said:
Solo'd Saturday (Yay!!)

From what I've read in the regs, I need to log some dual cross-country time, complete a dual night cross-country, and do a solo cross-country.

My instructor mentioned doing a short dual XC, and then the same XC, solo... followed by a longer dual XC, and then that same XC, solo. I've heard of that pattern before in other people's training.

Is that simply a common method of checking off those aeronautical experience requirements, or is there regulation that encourages that pattern?
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I was not allowed to repeat X/Cs.
 
I did a XC Dual to A-B-A..
Then one more A-C-D-A..
We did Dead reconing, VOR's, Pilotage, Radar Vectors, and eventually a handheld GPS. Some under the hood, some not...

Then I did two Solo XC's. One A-B-E and another A-F-G. So I had been to one of the fields before, but not the other 3. After the workout with the CFI, he was sure I wasn't going to get lost.. I was pretty sure as well.
 
I flew a cross-country dual to the same airport as my first cross-country solo. Then I planned and flew my long cross-country to two unfamiliar airports and a familiar airport in addition to the home drome. However, I'd already flown many dual cross-countries to unfamiliar airports, including NY to California and back as "copilot" before my first solo. The night dual was a fun flight over [Edit: Disney World] (when that was still allowed).
 
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There was a time when:
XC was done with a chart and a compass because that was mostly all we had....
But the initiated also carried a gas station road map so they could read the town name off the water tower and locate it on the road map and then follow the roads to an airport... This was the days of slow airplanes (though fantastically fast compared to cars on dirt roads), no weather reporting (MK-I eyeballs was your weather device), and winds aloft were what you found them to be by the method of eyeballing your crab angle compared to a road or train tracks and entering that on the backside of your E6B to navigate... With the advent of VOR in the early 50's you could determine distance to station by flying at right angles to the radial you were on for a set period of time and finding the new radial (I never done that for real but in practice it does work)
While it sounds really primitive in todays glass cockpit world, these methods worked and worked quite well... Flying trips were normally much shorter than today - a couple hundred miles was a major trip...
Flying altitude was usually under 800 feet.. People ran out into the yard and waved (today they call the police on you)
There were no restricted areas except a few around army depots, shooting ranges, etc. and if you did bust one of those you just turned away and kept going and no one took official notice...
A simpler time...

Not that today is bad... The most recent trip from Michigan to FLorida started by checking the weather channel... On the way to the airport I called FSS for official Wx any sudden TFR's (&^%$#@! money grubbing politicians) Fired up Fat Albert and away we went on top of some scattered cumulus following the moving map GPS... 4.5 hours later we stopped in Perry Georgia for fuel... Then straight South to the Gulf and and a 45 degree left turn and out across the water to Tampa (we could see sharks in the shallows) 5 miles off shore we followed the coast to Venice where we landed and called Enterprise for a car... Lots different from the old days - of course, these will be the old days to you folks someday...
 
The way I was taught, and I teach, and you'll find in most 141-approved syllabi, is at least two dual XC's before a solo XC. Personally, I like to see my trainees do something more than once with me before letting them do that thing alone.

And I'm also a fan of making the first solo XC be a route already flown dual -- but not the second or subsequent. The first time there's a lot of mental stress which route familiarity can help reduce. After that, I want them out there on their own building their confidence in their ability to go new places.
 
Ron Levy said:
The way I was taught, and I teach, and you'll find in most 141-approved syllabi, is at least two dual XC's before a solo XC. Personally, I like to see my trainees do something more than once with me before letting them do that thing alone.

And I'm also a fan of making the first solo XC be a route already flown dual -- but not the second or subsequent. The first time there's a lot of mental stress which route familiarity can help reduce. After that, I want them out there on their own building their confidence in their ability to go new places.
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That sounds like the best policy to me.

On that dual cross-country just before my first solo cross-country, we flew my route. I pointed out all my checkpoints to the instructor and he pointed out other ways to identify our location. I set up for the VORs and did the timings while he made sure I got it right. We practiced calling up Flight Following and he made sure that I had all the frequencies I would need on my kneeboard. We discussed the approach to the field for landing on both runways and landmarks that I could use to locate my position relative to the airport. We landed at the airport and located the telephone and restroom and made sure both were available when the FBO was closed. On the way back, I practiced finding alternative airports and off-airport landing spots. Once again, he made certain that I had all the frequencies for those alternate airports. He pointed out reporting points for ATC and made sure I understood about which altitudes would keep me out of Bravo airspace and when to call up NY Approach for landing back home.

For my long cross-countries, he just reviewed my route and signed me off. By that time, he felt I was ready to fly.
 
AuntPeggy said:
I flew a cross-country dual to the same airport as my first cross-country solo. Then I planned and flew my long cross-country to two unfamiliar airports and a familiar airport in addition to the home drome. However, I'd already flown many dual cross-countries to unfamiliar airports, including NY to California and back as "copilot" before my first solo. The night dual was a fun flight over Disneyland (when that was still allowed).
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That would be now.
 
My mistake, Disney World. Isn't there a permanent TFR over it?
 
AuntPeggy said:
My mistake, Disney World. Isn't there a permanent TFR over it?
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Same for both and you can fly right on through the Disney ones as long as you are talking to ATC, besides I think they only go up 3500'.
 
Ron Levy said:
And I'm also a fan of making the first solo XC be a route already flown dual -- but not the second or subsequent. The first time there's a lot of mental stress which route familiarity can help reduce. After that, I want them out there on their own building their confidence in their ability to go new places.
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This is what my CFI did and I executed. It made my solo XC much more enjoyable because I had a better handle on what to do when, the landmarks I needed to know for navigation and finding the target airports, and more.
 
I think it's too bad that a lot of CFIs are so afraid of getting busted for something their students do that they don't allow them the experience of finding their way to an unfamiliar airport. In these days where controllers are expected to file paperwork whenever something unexpected happens I can understand it, but it really doesn't work to the student's benefit at all. My first CFI had been nearly burned by a student who got lost and ended up busting the DTW surface area so I understood, and didn't hold it against him, especially considering that otherwise he was really excellent. But I didn't regret leaving him, for other reasons (marginally airworthy aircraft was all he had access to at the flight school he was at at the time), and by the time I finished up I had done a few solo XCs, every one of them to at least one field I had never been to before. Since then I've never been afraid of visiting new airports and I think that getting that experience as a student pilot is invaluable, and instructors who force their students to do all their solo XCs first as dual are protecting themselves at their students' expense.
 
My student cross counties were 28 years ago, but I do remember a couple dual followed by a couple solo. Actually my CFI and I took my gf (now wife) and her roomate on a couple double dates to Calloway Gardens, 50 nautical miles from our home base, so I had a couple dual night cross countries. :D
My son has done his night cross country and all his night landings, one short solo cross country to Anniston AL, same place he did his night dual. He is also signed off to fly between FTY and CTJ (30 miles) so he can get out of the pattern and practice. He's down to his long cross country and 2 hours under the hood and he'll be good to go for the checkride. :D
 
Congrats on the solo! I started my x-country training after my solo flight. I've done a few dual x-countries with my CFI. My next flight will be my solo x-country to an airport we've been too already. After that will be an airport that I've never been too and the long x-country will be to at least 2 airports I've never been too.
 
LearDriver said:
Your CFI wants to make sure you don't screw up.

I do two short cross countries which then I have the student repeat. On the long cross country it is over new territory. I save the night cross country for closer to the check ride.
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This. My CFI sent me to a place we had already been for my short cross country. You literally just follow highway 101 and you are there. Impossible to get lost. Like this poster, however, he believes in sending students to new places for the long cross country so they can go somewhere on the map they have never been. Oh and he goes big - rather than 150 total miles my long XC was well over 200.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This. My CFI sent me to a place we had already been for my short cross country. You literally just follow highway 101 and you are there. Impossible to get lost. Like this poster, however, he believes in sending students to new places for the long cross country so they can go somewhere on the map they have never been. Oh and he goes big - rather than 150 total miles my long XC was well over 200.
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I don't see the value in exceeding the NM requirement. A long cross country is nothing more than a series of short cross countries.
 
My dual and solo xcs were all different, although one or two airports were repeated.

Long xc sent me on a 150+nm first leg to a common vacation destination, two more stops on the way home - all new-to-me airports.
Great value in going farther than min ... New geography, different wx, unfamiliar airport operations, all while still under instructor's wing, just in case. Big confidence builder.
 
JoeSelch said:
My dual and solo xcs were all different, although one or two airports were repeated.

Long xc sent me on a 150+nm first leg to a common vacation destination, two more stops on the way home - all new-to-me airports.
Great value in going farther than min ... New geography, different wx, unfamiliar airport operations, all while still under instructor's wing, just in case. Big confidence builder.
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That's all fine, and it is exactly the kind of experience you build after you obtain your certificate. In training, you just need to demonstrate you can navigate from point A to B safely.

If money is no issue and you don't care how far you go on student cross countries, more power to you. But a lot of students are getting tapped out by that point in training and don't need the extra expense.
 
vintage cessna said:
That's all fine, and it is exactly the kind of experience you build after you obtain your certificate. In training, you just need to demonstrate you can navigate from point A to B safely.

If money is no issue and you don't care how far you go on student cross countries, more power to you. But a lot of students are getting tapped out by that point in training and don't need the extra expense.
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True but it was a big confidence builder. I had to cross some mountains (at around 4500 or 6500 forget which) and I went to a place with no landmarks (good for VOR practice since I had no GPS). That may be why he sent me to an airport 90+ miles away.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
True but it was a big confidence builder. I had to cross some mountains (at around 4500 or 6500 forget which) and I went to a place with no landmarks (good for VOR practice since I had no GPS). That may be why he sent me to an airport 90+ miles away.
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Can't build confidence after you get your cert?
 
vintage cessna said:
That's all fine, and it is exactly the kind of experience you build after you obtain your certificate. In training, you just need to demonstrate you can navigate from point A to B safely.

If money is no issue and you don't care how far you go on student cross countries, more power to you. But a lot of students are getting tapped out by that point in training and don't need the extra expense.
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It was my training and I'm glad I did it the way I did.
If I'm going to do it after, why not do it during?
If a person is so tapped out that they can't afford to do the kind of flying they're going to do anyway, then perhaps they really can't afford this whole flying thing?

(No need to respond. You've made your point of view clear.)
 
vintage cessna said:
I don't see the value in exceeding the NM requirement. A long cross country is nothing more than a series of short cross countries.
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I did the same thing. I had to burn 3.1 hours solo cross country time. So, I went to Merced and Fresno. Fresno is far from anywhere.

There was a lot of value to this. It was far enough that a fuel stop was marginally called for, so I did it. It was also far enough that I had to keep an eye on the weather back home, from 120 miles away. I learned quite a bit on that trip. Not the least was that haze viewed from far away kinda looks like overcast, and the FSS is of little help telling the difference, unless there happens to be an airport with weather reporting there.

And I got to land on the second-biggest runway I've ever seen. :) Merced/Castle is a former SAC base. Landing a dinky little c172 on a runway meant for B-52s is an interesting experience. I was tempted to try 5 or 6 stop'n'goes on it (but I didn't). Of course, this doesn't need to be done as a student pilot, but it was fun, and it did build confidence to go so far afield.

Total cost was 3.3 hours Hobbs. I could have done two shorter cross-countries, but what would the point be?
 
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There is also the possibility of doing something you want to do on a cross country.

I soloed my only ab inicio student May 20th (16th birthday) and she flew ~99miles to the Ladies Love Taildraggers fly-in on June 1 and about 350NM on the 20th for the National Waco Club fly-in and return on the 24th. I had done the 99 mile with her dual before the solo. The other included three new fields including the grass destination. I think she had a lot of fun, learned a lot and built some real confidence. For full disclosure though, she had 50 hours before the first solo X-C because of the age thing.

Edit: she had done another dual X-C about a year ago (last year's LLT) and she had done the pilotage thing well with just a watch, sectional and compass.
 
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Personally I think those who say wait until you have your ticket are overlooking the possibility that doing the longer XC might uncover issues that should be addressed BEFORE the checkride. If not, then it's a confidence builder like no other, and that's another very valuable piece of feedback.

But I think the length is less important than having the student figure out how to navigate there from scratch, without having been "shown" how first in a dual flight. That's a skill that can't be demonstrated any other way, and it goes way beyond the on-paper-only flight planning of the DPE-assigned route for the checkride.
 
azure said:
Personally I think those who say wait until you have your ticket are overlooking the possibility that doing the longer XC might uncover issues that should be addressed BEFORE the checkride. If not, then it's a confidence builder like no other, and that's another very valuable piece of feedback.

But I think the length is less important than having the student figure out how to navigate there from scratch, without having been "shown" how first in a dual flight. That's a skill that can't be demonstrated any other way, and it goes way beyond the on-paper-only flight planning of the DPE-assigned route for the checkride.
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Agree. Plus, you are taking the chance that the first time the student is planning a trip to an unknown airport is for the checkride, if you don't know far enough in advance what the DPE is going to ask for.
 
I really believe that solo flying and especially solo XC are the most important things you do as a Student Pilot. It really builds both confidence and proficiency in the things you will probably do most as a pilot. I'm still beaked over the FAA's decision to cut the solo and solo XC requirements in half 15 years ago, and I think we'd see a lot fewer problems if the FAA kicked the solo requirements back up to the old 20 solo/10 solo XC.
 
azure said:
Personally I think those who say wait until you have your ticket are overlooking the possibility that doing the longer XC might uncover issues that should be addressed BEFORE the checkride. If not, then it's a confidence builder like no other, and that's another very valuable piece of feedback.

But I think the length is less important than having the student figure out how to navigate there from scratch, without having been "shown" how first in a dual flight. That's a skill that can't be demonstrated any other way, and it goes way beyond the on-paper-only flight planning of the DPE-assigned route for the checkride.
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An instructor had better uncover any deficiencies prior to signing off a student for solo cross country flight.
 
My original instructor and myself flew from KGAI, to KLNS, to KFDK(before tower) back to KGAI. My new instructor wants me to fly KGAI KMQS KTHV KGAI. I have never been to KMQS or KTHV. Is it normal to be a little apprehensive about getting lost, for the first XC? I am capable of planning the XC, I am capable of using VORs, it is just spotting a new airport is usually the difficult part for me. Reading the PTS, it appears as if I am supposed to use the available technology on the plane. I have never used the AP, which I think is useful when I have to calculate using pilotage to figure out my actual GS. Also, since the plane has GPS, am I supposed to use that in navigating my XC, or can I use it if I only feel I am lost?

Any feedback is appreciated.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
My original instructor and myself flew from KGAI, to KLNS, to KFDK(before tower) back to KGAI. My new instructor wants me to fly KGAI KMQS KTHV KGAI. I have never been to KMQS or KTHV. Is it normal to be a little apprehensive about getting lost, for the first XC? I am capable of planning the XC, I am capable of using VORs, it is just spotting a new airport is usually the difficult part for me. Reading the PTS, it appears as if I am supposed to use the available technology on the plane. I have never used the AP, which I think is useful when I have to calculate using pilotage to figure out my actual GS. Also, since the plane has GPS, am I supposed to use that in navigating my XC, or can I use it if I only feel I am lost?

Any feedback is appreciated.
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The apprehension is normal, and that's why we all give you XC training before sending you out alone, and why many of us send you out on a route you've already flown for your first solo XC. As for the rest, talk that over with your instructor, although I strongly suggest that for initial XC training, you use the GPS only if your primary DR/pilotage nav fails you, because DR/pilotage is always available but GPS is not. Clearly, the a/p is also a nice thing to have when your hands are needed for other tasks like refolding charts and writing on your flight log, but again, learn first to work without it and then use it as a "nice to have" aid rather than a crutch.
 
Ron Levy said:
The apprehension is normal, and that's why we all give you XC training before sending you out alone, and why many of us send you out on a route you've already flown for your first solo XC. As for the rest, talk that over with your instructor, although I strongly suggest that for initial XC training, you use the GPS only if your primary DR/pilotage nav fails you, because DR/pilotage is always available but GPS is not. Clearly, the a/p is also a nice thing to have when your hands are needed for other tasks like refolding charts and writing on your flight log, but again, learn first to work without it and then use it as a "nice to have" aid rather than a crutch.
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Thank you, Ron.
On the Checkride, will the DPE just evaluate the DR/Pilotage? Or, will he want to see me take advantage of the AP and GPS?
 
MDeitch1976 said:
On the Checkride, will the DPE just evaluate the DR/Pilotage? Or, will he want to see me take advantage of the AP and GPS?
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You will be expected to use everything you have installed until the examiner fails it, then you'll be expected to make do with what's left. :wink2:
 
Ron Levy said:
You will be expected to use everything you have installed until the examiner fails it, then you'll be expected to make do with what's left. :wink2:
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And let me tell you...examiners have this very bizarre knack of breaking things in cockpits.
 
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