Student PIC Time

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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From 61.51
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
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Does this mean that I need to review my logbook between the time I received my solo endorsement and took my checkride to add the PIC time?
 
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The only time when you can log PIC as a student pilot is when your alone in the airplane or on the checkride. I think there is another regulation that clarifies it, I'll get back to you on the § #.
 
MachFly said:
The only time when you can log PIC as a student pilot is when your alone in the airplane or on the checkride. I think there is another regulation that clarifies it, I'll get back to you on the § #.
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Please cite the regulation.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Does this mean that I need to review my logbook between the time I received my solo endorsement and took my checkride to add the PIC time?
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Not sure what you are asking; all your student pilot solo time was PIC time. None of your student pilot dual time is considered PIC time.

So if you are asking whether you should have logged student solo time as PIC, then the answer is yes.
 
TMetzinger said:
Or in a couple of odd situations like getting an intitial private certificate in a multi where the insurance will NOT let you go solo.
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You mean if your getting your PPL in a multi engine without ever flying a single engine?
 
Jim Logajan said:
Not sure what you are asking; all your student pilot solo time was PIC time. None of your student pilot dual time is considered PIC time.

So if you are asking whether you should have logged student solo time as PIC, then the answer is yes.
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That's what I've heard all along, but not what is indicated in 61.51
 
Jaybird180 said:
That's what I've heard all along, but not what is indicated in 61.51
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How is that not indicated in 61.51? You realize that you are supposed to put "and"s between 4.i, 4.ii, and 4.iii so that all the criteria must be met for the PIC time to apply?

It effectively reads:
A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft (or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember,) and has a solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part, and is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.


​
Edit: Unless you got dual in an airship of course! (Older airships required more than one pilot!)
 
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Jaybird180 said:
That's what I've heard all along, but not what is indicated in 61.51
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Try 61.51(e). You'll see that the holder of a Student Pilot certificate does not qualify to log PIC time under any subsection other than 61.51(e)(1)(ii) -- the "sole occupant" clause.

BTW, if your insurance does not allow solo flight in the aircraft in which you are training, you cannot earn your Private Pilot certificate in that aircraft. There is no "simulated solo" exception for the solo requirements in 61.109 as there is for the solo requirements for Commercial Pilot in 61.129.
 
TMetzinger said:
I deleted that post... I remembered something wrong.

And you CAN get your PPL in a multi without flying a single first.
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Roger

Can't think of any reason why you would want to do it though.
 
Ron Levy said:
Try 61.51(e). You'll see that the holder of a Student Pilot certificate does not qualify to log PIC time under any subsection other than 61.51(e)(1)(ii) -- the "sole occupant" clause.

BTW, if your insurance does not allow solo flight in the aircraft in which you are training, you cannot earn your Private Pilot certificate in that aircraft. There is no "simulated solo" exception for the solo requirements in 61.109 as there is for the solo requirements for Commercial Pilot in 61.129.
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Yeah that's what I was remembering.
 
Ron- I am reading and citing from 61.51(e) and I'm not seeing the sole occupant clause. Can you cut/paste it here?
 
Here it is:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
{New-2009-20 (e)(1) revised August 21, 2009, effective October 20, 2009}
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided--
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation--
(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Takeoff and departure;
(4) In-flight maneuvers;
(5) Instrument procedures;
(6) Landings and approaches to landings;
(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;
(8) Emergency procedures; and
(9) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds--
(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.
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MachFly said:
The only time when you can log PIC as a student pilot is when your alone in the airplane or on the checkride. I think there is another regulation that clarifies it, I'll get back to you on the § #.
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This is the one I was thinking of

Ron Levy said:
Try 61.51(e). You'll see that the holder of a Student Pilot certificate does not qualify to log PIC time under any subsection other than 61.51(e)(1)(ii) -- the "sole occupant" clause.
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(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

...

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
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Neither of the above says student is limited to sole occupant.
 
Hmmmmmm.....is the key here airship???? That the student can log PIC dual in an airship versus airplane?
 
sorry, it's in 4 now...
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
Click to expand...
 
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
{New-2009-20 (e)(4)(ii) revised August 21, 2009, effective October 20, 2009}
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
 
TMetzinger said:
Well, you bought one and wanted to learn how to fly it?
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I've heard of folks buying something like a Baron and then learning to fly in it. IIRC, typical time to license was about three times national PP-ASEL average, often more, and largely driven by the insurer's minimum solo requirement.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Hmmmmmm.....is the key here airship???? That the student can log PIC dual in an airship versus airplane?
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That appears to be the portion causing the mis-read. Just elide the whole portion that states "or is performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember" and see if it makes sense.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
 
Okay Jim. Makes sense now. Thank you for clearing that up....you did say that in an earlier post. I saw but didn't see the nuance.
 
MachFly said:
The only time when you can log PIC as a student pilot is when your alone in the airplane or on the checkride. I think there is another regulation that clarifies it, I'll get back to you on the § #.
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That's the way it USED to be before 1997. It's not the way it is now.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
So what is it NOW?
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It's the way it's quoted in 61.51(e)(4):

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
Click to expand...
 
Greg Bockelman said:
So what is it NOW?
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Crikes, that was already answered at least twice including TIM citing the actual reguation. Student Pilot Certificate holders can log their PIC time while solo.

They were always PIC while solo in the past, it just took the part 61 rewrite to allow them to log it.
 
flyingron said:
Crikes, that was already answered at least twice including TIM citing the actual reguation. Student Pilot Certificate holders can log their PIC time while solo.

They were always PIC while solo in the past, it just took the part 61 rewrite to allow them to log it.
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I think the part that had some folks stirred up was the statement someone made that Student Pilots could only log PIC when solo, and someone else then pointed out that Student Pilots in airships (but only in airships) could have a second crewmember aboard and still log PIC time.
 
flyingron said:
Crikes, that was already answered at least twice including TIM citing the actual reguation. Student Pilot Certificate holders can log their PIC time while solo.

They were always PIC while solo in the past, it just took the part 61 rewrite to allow them to log it.
Click to expand...

I KNOW what it is now. I didn't know what it was in 1997, which is what I thought I was asking about. Sorry about the confusion.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think the part that had some folks stirred up was the statement someone made that Student Pilots could only log PIC when solo, and someone else then pointed out that Student Pilots in airships (but only in airships) could have a second crewmember aboard and still log PIC time.
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Just FYI for anyone interested in where the two crewmember exception came from for airships: take a look at 3:25 into the following video; you'll see two pilots standing with control wheels, each controlling a different axis of rotation:

 
MachFly said:
Roger

Can't think of any reason why you would want to do it though.
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I can. I knew a girl who bought a multi, flew it for everything, and went straight to the airlines. She never held a single-engine rating, and probably never will.
 
flyingron said:
They were always PIC while solo in the past, it just took the part 61 rewrite to allow them to log it.
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Now for the really fun questions:

A) Could someone retroactively fix their log to match the current rules?

B) Should they?

And the really fun one...

C) How many of us old-farts have actually had to explain to a young instructor that we logged something a certain way years ago because that was the rules at the time?

D) And then had the instructor tell them they wanted you to change it anyway?

E) And have to go dig up old FARs to prove it.

F) And still have them ask you to change it?

Did ya refuse, or do it? ;)

Inquiring minds want to know. That's just the hypothetical.

For real-world "fun"...

One instructor found out that another instructor had screwed up my logbook with a questionable sign off -- back when complex and high-performance were the same endorsement. So quite some time had passed.

The fix was just to go fly a complex high-performance aircraft and add two more "modern style" endorsements to the logbook. So, I have an old style "dual" endorsement and two more, in the "single" format in my logbook. It's stupid.

I was royally ****ed at the first CFI (and still am), for all the years I flew not knowing he'd goofed. Less ****ed at myself, but a little.

Learned a lesson too... Never trust that a CFI did something right in your logbook. Look up the regs yourself and ask.

I had to show one CFI the Advisory Circular for how to word a particular sign-off once too. He wasn't very active but I was surprised nevertheless. (In that case I wasn't paying for it, it was just one of those "Hey you're a CFI, you could let me log that if you don't mind" types of things. I can't fault having to do the legwork on that one.) (Also note my paranoia about getting it right stems from the other CFI's screw up.)

Just because a particular CFI is on a club roster, and you've met them and think they're a "nice guy", is not a good reason to hire them. I was 20 or 21 and didn't know any better back then...
 
denverpilot said:
A) Could someone retroactively fix their log to match the current rules?
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Yes.

B) Should they?
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Hard to say.

C) How many of us old-farts have actually had to explain to a young instructor that we logged something a certain way years ago because that was the rules at the time?
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Not me.

One instructor found out that another instructor had screwed up my logbook with a questionable sign off -- back when complex and high-performance were the same endorsement. So quite some time had passed.
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I've run into that -- pre-97 HP in an Arrow, never flew anything with over 200 HP before 1997, then later bought a PA32 and was flying it around without the necessary endorsement or grandfathering. The fix was to give him a new HP endorsement in his PA32, with the pre-97 Arrow time grandfathering him for complex -- no new complex endorsement required.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not me.
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Me either. I've never had anyone express interest in my previous sign offs. I don't even remember when my complex and/or high performance sign offs were. I do know I'm grandfathered for tailwheel although I would not fly one unsupervised at this point.
 
denverpilot said:
I can. I knew a girl who bought a multi, flew it for everything, and went straight to the airlines. She never held a single-engine rating, and probably never will.
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I know several people who, while they still got a single engine rating, pretty much jumped straight to MEL after. A couple people who got their 50-100 hours of single engine time, bought a twin (in both cases an Aztec) and never looked back. One of my friends has his ATP-AMEL and PP-ASEL, no instrument privileges.

In the situation you listed (someone going straight to the airlines), I can see benefits to just starting out with the multi rating, provided you can come up with the money.

I actually went ahead and got my CP-ASEL-IA before adding my AMEL. Makes sense for me, since I still have cause to fly singles now and then.
 
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