Student issues advice

I've been thinking about this all day. I haven't read anything I really disagree with but none quite describe how I feel about it. It's kind of complicated so excuse me while I dance around the issue.

On one hand we have a duty to provide efficient training. It's uncomfortable to get in the situation where the student doesn't seem to be making progress while spending money at a prodigious rate.

On the other hand as stated it's not our job solve all the personal issues that people bring to flight training. I've had a few primary students with over 100 hrs, almost all of them women with confidence issues. Plenty of talent but just not ready and willing to take on PIC responsibilities.

What do we do with a student that comes day after day and doesn't make progress?

I hate to even consider the option of telling people they will never be a pilot and they are wasting my time, mainly because I don't believe it's true except in very exceptional cases. Given enough time, money and dedication almost anyone can learn to fly and I enjoy the challenge of finding something worthwhile to do during a flight with one of these "difficult cases".

I do discuss the problems we're encountering and the money we're spending. But I leave the decision on whether or not to continue up to them. As long as I'm comfortable I can keep them safe, I'll continue.

Joe
 
How do you decide when they can be safely self-reliant for some extended period of time after you're not there?

Areeda said:
I've been thinking about this all day. I haven't read anything I really disagree with but none quite describe how I feel about it. It's kind of complicated so excuse me while I dance around the issue.

On one hand we have a duty to provide efficient training. It's uncomfortable to get in the situation where the student doesn't seem to be making progress while spending money at a prodigious rate.

On the other hand as stated it's not our job solve all the personal issues that people bring to flight training. I've had a few primary students with over 100 hrs, almost all of them women with confidence issues. Plenty of talent but just not ready and willing to take on PIC responsibilities.

What do we do with a student that comes day after day and doesn't make progress?

I hate to even consider the option of telling people they will never be a pilot and they are wasting my time, mainly because I don't believe it's true except in very exceptional cases. Given enough time, money and dedication almost anyone can learn to fly and I enjoy the challenge of finding something worthwhile to do during a flight with one of these "difficult cases".

I do discuss the problems we're encountering and the money we're spending. But I leave the decision on whether or not to continue up to them. As long as I'm comfortable I can keep them safe, I'll continue.

Joe
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saracelica said:
I know two people who took flying lessons just for the experience. When it came to "solo" they passed on it and just did everything else. Never took the checkride or written test.
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Obviously the "Aunt Bea" syndrome.
 
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Mtns2Skies said:
Say what?!:eek:
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Based on nearly 40 years as a CFI, I think most people do indeed have some apprehensions about soloing -- and I also think that's perfectly natural, given the situation into which they are about to place themselves. In fact, I'd be kinda worried about someone who approached solo without any apprehension at all.
 
wabower said:
How do you decide when they can be safely self-reliant for some extended period of time after you're not there?
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I wish I had a fool proof objective way to do that but as with every student is only my opinion based on time spent in the plane and on the ground.

Joe
 
Ron Levy said:
Based on nearly 40 years as a CFI, I think most people do indeed have some apprehensions about soloing -- and I also think that's perfectly natural, given the situation into which they are about to place themselves. In fact, I'd be kinda worried about someone who approached solo without any apprehension at all.
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I'd say that's pretty correct.

In my case, the sweaty palms and heart racing were quickly replaced by "WOOHOO!!!!" :)
 
Ron Levy said:
You may not like to be categorized this way, Ted, but my experience suggests that makes you pretty much average in this regard.
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Actually, Ron, that was my point.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd say that's pretty correct.

In my case, the sweaty palms and heart racing were quickly replaced by "WOOHOO!!!!" :)
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Yup. I was apprehensive about it but definitely looking forward to it. My last three lessons leading up to solo (and I didn't know when he was going to cut me loose) I intentionally wore a sacrificial T-shirt when I went to the airport, just in case today was the day.
 
I lost the ability to count when I solo'ed.

"Take it for three touch and gos..."

OK!

Seven circuits later...

"How many did I say to do?"

ummmmmmmmmmm....:dunno:
 
Tristan, you did the right thing.

Many of the posts above sound inappropriately harsh. This person is a client. Just based on that, he decides what happens. If he wants to procrastinate on the medical, that's his right and his decision.

The bigger question is what his motivation is and _how you can help him achieve his goals_, whatever they might be. People generally have a reason to act a certain way. A good instructor needs to keep that in mind.

Whether or not you think he is acting immaturely or irresponsibly is irrelevant.
 
sba55 said:
Whether or not you think he is acting immaturely or irresponsibly is irrelevant.
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Before anyone takes that too generally or broadly, some degree of maturity and responsibility are necessary before letting someone take a plane out by themselves (not to mention the instructor's safety if forced to deliver bad news), so in that regard, the trainee's maturity and responsiblity are relevant to the instructor's decision on how to handle the situation.
 
sba55 said:
Many of the posts above sound inappropriately harsh. This person is a client.

{snip}

Whether or not you think he is acting immaturely or irresponsibly is irrelevant.
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Sorry, nope.

The CFI - Student relationship is a partnership, which requires mutual respect and dedication to the student's success.

If someone approaches me as their personal servant, they can continue looking.
 
Good news, my student actually did call me today and said he was able to talk to someone about his medical. I told him to let me know when he has it all worked out. So at least I'm seeing some effort.

Felix, I disagree. My ticket is on the line and my judge of personality and what I believe is a safe pilot is also my responsibility. Now of course, if they do something stupid after they get their license, there is only so much judgement I can forsee. I liked how another CFI put it, "I teach as if I had to explain it to the FAA why I did what I did, would it look good?" You are correct in the sense that they are customers, but I'm not in a business where "the customer is always right." If that was the case, I wouldn't have a job but I do try to keep everyone as happy as possible. This guy is sort of like teaching the clear eyes commercial guy. I have seen him smile when he talks about things outside of class, but he's pretty emotionless otherwise. I've never seen him get scared or excited but he does ask me "how was that landing?" so I at least know he's trying to learn how to fly. I think when it comes to ground I'll have to encourage myself to be quiet more and let him teach me about the topics he needs to know. This is a way of teaching that I do already but I believe it will have to become a primary choice of his learning.

One big thing I've learned is no matter if I'm dealing with customers, pilots, or flight instructors in person or even on POA, everyone has a different perspective and everyone learns/teaches differently. It's not that its always wrong, it's just different.
 
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Tristar said:
Good news, my student actually did call me today and said he was able to talk to someone about his medical. I told him to let me know when he has it all worked out. So at least I'm seeing some effort.

Felix, I disagree. My ticket is on the line and my judge of personality and what I believe is a safe pilot is also my responsibility. Now of course, if they do something stupid after they get their license, there is only so much judgement I can forsee. I liked how another CFI put it, "I teach as if I had to explain it to the FAA why I did what I did, would it look good?" You are correct in the sense that they are customers, but I'm not in a business where "the customer is always right." If that was the case, I wouldn't have a job but I do try to keep everyone as happy as possible. This guy is sort of like teaching the clear eyes commercial guy. I have seen him smile when he talks about things outside of class, but he's pretty emotionless otherwise. I've never seen him get scared or excited but he does ask me "how was that landing?" so I at least know he's trying to learn how to fly. I think when it comes to ground I'll have to encourage myself to be quiet more and let him teach me about the topics he needs to know. This is a way of teaching that I do already but I believe it will have to become a primary choice of his learning.

One big thing I've learned is no matter if I'm dealing with customers, pilots, or flight instructors in person or even on POA, everyone has a different perspective and everyone learns/teaches differently. It's not that its always wrong, it's just different.
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No disagreement there.

Thanks Ron, glad you clarified this for me! :) Apparently, it was necessary.
 
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sba55 said:
It's not about being a "servant", but it's also not a partnership. They're paying your salary; they're calling the shots. As simple as that.
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I disagree, it's not simply they're calling the shots.

The CFI has too much responsibility, especially with the primary student.

In one sense, and maybe that's what you're talking about, the student decides whether to continue training and whether to continue with this instructor. They also have a lot of input into how fast and in what order things are being done.

But, I'm getting paid to teach and keep us both safe. If the student doesn't agree with my decisions on how to do those two things they are more than welcome to move on. We're pretty much betting my ticket and both our lives on those decisions.

Joe
 
Tristar said:
"I teach as if I had to explain it to the FAA why I did what I did, would it look good?"
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Would that all instructors had the same attitude. And that all pilots "flew as if they had to explain it to the FAA why they did what they did, it would look good." We'd probably see our light GA accident rate drop more in the same ballpark with airliners rather than motorcycles.
 
sba55 said:
Many of the posts above sound inappropriately harsh. This person is a client. Just based on that, he decides what happens. If he wants to procrastinate on the medical, that's his right and his decision.

The bigger question is what his motivation is and _how you can help him achieve his goals_, whatever they might be. People generally have a reason to act a certain way. A good instructor needs to keep that in mind.

Whether or not you think he is acting immaturely or irresponsibly is irrelevant.
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I don't see any problem if someone wants to be a perpetual student as long as everyone is on the same page about it and agreeable to it.

This is different than someone acting immaturely or irresponsibly.

However, when someone professes a desire to be an airline pilot then drags their heels about everything, something seems off.
 
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Both of those require an element of planning, preparation and logic. What's wrong with this picture?

Ron Levy said:
Would that all instructors had the same attitude. And that all pilots "flew as if they had to explain it to the FAA why they did what they did, it would look good." We'd probably see our light GA accident rate drop more in the same ballpark with airliners rather than motorcycles.
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Re: Aeronautical Knowledge
Motivation is a big component. Some people require hand-holding through ground school, so maybe something more structured and less self-study (ie, more costly) is more up his alley. Maybe he's discouraged because it requires effort. He needs to let you know what this is, and he needs to know that he's not going to be judged for why, and that an honest answer is the only way you can help him sort out whatever the road block is.

Re: Medical Contingencies
I believe CAMI's review board only meets a few times per year. Anything requiring review will queue up. In 2008 & 2009, USPS responses were 3-6 weeks. For simple questions (how do I request a replacement medical? Is there anything you still need from me?), Dr. Silberman and his staff responded to email in a week or less.

Note that phone calls don't necessarily count as a response. There will be a PI# and an APP ID# which is used to associate any written responses to his file, and it's important that any replies include those numbers. If they sent a letter requesting additional information, it probably included this line:
Please note that your medical certification has not been denied at this time; however, if no reply is received within 30 days from the date of this letter, we will have no alternative except to deny your application in accordance with Title 14 od the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR's), Section 67.413.
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You may want to simply ask him what his goals are, and discuss alternatives. Maybe he's no longer interested in becoming certificated. Maybe he'd be OK just getting enough to be safe in an ultralight. Maybe he has a skeleton in his closet and doesn't want anyone to know. Maybe he has a recent DUI or drug conviction that he doesn't want his mom to know about. Maybe he's discouraged by the effort required. Maybe he just likes flying with you in the right seat and doesn't care about the cert.

Ultimately though, while it's your job to keep him from being discouraged, and to give him good feedback, and good training, it's not your requirement to create motivation in him. If he is just going through the motions because he's supposed to, then maybe you should discuss with the mom and make sure she knows and whether she's ok continuing to fund this.

Lots of maybes, lots of rambles. Good luck!
 
I re-read the title of this thread and thought a student was telling you what to do!!:D
 
xaminmo said:
snip... Some people require hand-holding through ground school, so maybe something more structured and less self-study (ie, more costly) is more up his alley..... snip
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I have mixed feelings about hand holding. I would be more likely to strongly encourage them to do as much as they can on their own, and if they don't, I'd warn them I will drop them as a student.

In my opinion, if someone requires so much hand holding that they only know what you tell them, they are not going to be a safe pilot. A good pilot is always learning, and its impossible for an instructor to tell a student everything they possibly need. An instructor can teach them as much as they can to keep them safe and alive, but its ultimately on the student to make sure they are learning all they can. If the instructor can not trust the student to do so, I would drop them.

Sure, the hand holding might be a temporary thing due to confidence and eventually they will overcome it, but I'd have a hard time trusting a student who required hand holding.

On the other hand, If I was convinced this student would keep flying anyway, even if it meant going to another instructor after being dropped, I might be more likely to work with them to overcome whatever it is that makes them require hand holding because, lets face it, some instructors are only trying to build time, and I'm not sure they would sincerely care.

I guess I am saying, I feel my time would be much better spent on someone who didn't require hand holding.
 
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