Story of My Failed Negotiation on C182

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JoseCuervo

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JoseCuervo
Kind of looking to purchase a C-182, so I keep an eye on the Barnstomers-Trade-a-Plane/etc types of sites to see what is available. End of June, I find a 1969 182 for $39k, OBO that might meet my needs. It is listed by a broker about 350 miles away.

I happen to have a buddy that is a AP/AI that lives about 50 miles from where the plane was listed, I ask him if he knows anything about the plane, or the Broker. He had never heard of the broker, didn't know fo the plane. No big deal.

My buddy did say that a plane just came back to his shop after being based 100 miles away (closer to the coast) and the owner wanted to sell it. An early -60s C182, had the back window, the swept tail, the wider fuselage. The guy wanted $35k for it, as is. The engine only had 900hrs smoh.

The last annual had been done at another airport, so my buddy hadn't worked on it for awhile. When it came back, he was asked to see if he could sell it. He checked everything out, decided it would need a new cylinder (exhaust valve guide). He also said it needed a tach.


I offered, to the owner, via my buddy:
  • $35k
  • 50/50 on the Annual/Pre-buy done by my buddy (Annual expires August 30).
  • 50/50 on the first $4k in repairs (cylinder+tach+_____???)

My logic was his price was fair for a ratty exterior, acceptable interior, Garmin 430 WAAS, and a mid time engine, assuming the cylinder was replaced. I wanted the Seller to share in making sure the plane was airworthy and split the annual/pre-buy. I wanted to cap the repairs at $4k, as I wasn't interested in replacing wings for corrosion, or other hidden disasters.

The Seller countered back that I should have to pay the entire "annual/pre-buy" so that I would have "skin in the game". Whatever, I knew the annual would be less than $1k, so losing it over $500 wasn't that big of a deal to me, but his "skin in the game" attitude kind of was a bit off putting. I agreed to the entire annual, based upon my inspection and wanting to proceed.

I then traveled 400 and some miles, hotel on the way, met up with my buddy, spent a day and a half at his shop, BS'ing, working/inspecting on the plane, then flying it. The plane was quite a bit worse on paint than I was expecting, but I convinced myself that I would tie it down outside, and worry more about flying than waxing. In any event, I was gone from the office 3 days, spent a day of my buddy's time on the plane, and decided to go ahead and write up the contract.

We kept the same terms as agreed: $35k, I pay for annual, 50/50 on the first $4k in repairs. I then added "Seller has option to pay for 100% of repairs in excess of $4k", just so that the Seller would still be able to make the transaction go thru if the bill were to be some silly $4,250 type of thing. If the seller didn't want to pay for the repairs in excess of $4k, then I wanted "Seller to reimburse me for the Annual on his airplane if Seller declines to perform repairs", as he had exercised the option to not continue the transaction.

This last clause had a small chance of being important (10%??) as my buddy was pretty sure he had a handle on the cost of the repairs, and the $4k was about 2x what he estimated the repairs to be. If I use math, the 10% probability of a $1000 reimursement being required of the Seller, the expected value of the clause, to the Seller was $100. (10% x $1000 = $100)

What I knew about the Seller was that he:
  • doesn't fly, no license
  • had been allowing a son to fly it, who quit flying
  • had been allowing employees to fly it, neglecting maintenance
  • Supposedly had a $XXk note on the plane, more than the $35k
  • Had $1500 a year in insurance ($125/mo)
  • Had $75 tie downs
  • Needed a $1000 annual on Sept 1
  • Needed a New Cylinder
  • Needed a new Tach
  • Needed a new muffler

All total, he had $3k expenses coming due in 45 days if he wanted to keep the plane airworthy. Plus, he had $200 a month in insurance and tie downs, plus $200-300 a month in interest expenses on the plane.

Based upon all of the Seller's fixed expenses on the plane, and the fact that I had actually offered him his "full price", plus the fact I conceded the first "skin in the game" counter offer, I felt my proposal was fair. I didn't want to be in the business of paying for other people's annuals, if they were walking away from the deal.

The Seller responded back that he wouldn't agree to reimbursing me for the Annual if the Seller opted to not complete the transaction as that was my "skin in the game".

I responded back "Unfortunately, we aren't able to reach agreeable terms, any future offers for the plane will be with much different Terms and Conditions".

From my view point, the guy had pushed back one too many times, when he was selling something that was in poor condition (I think he really valued the Garmin 430), and there are plenty of other C182's around. So, for sake of a $100 item (the 10% chance of having to reimburse me $1000), the guy has a bunch more tie-downs on a plane he doesn't fly, another year of insurance, $3k in Annuals due on Sept 1 (including the cylinder, tach, muffler), plus a $200-300 a month in interest expenses that his bank wants.


Oh well, onward to the next plane.....
 
That's too bad. Just curious, did you speak directly to the seller in the process?
 
Well, I see your problem right off. You want a 182.
 
Why does somebody without a certificate have a loan on an airplane, and for more than its value??
 
Irritating when people cant just be straight forward with everything.... Wastes everyones time
 
Well you are set on purchasing a 182 for short money and the seller noticed that.He underestimated your desire to own a 182 and yor right there are plenty of 182s around.the old adage comes true never buy the first airplane you look at.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Jose; what is your budget?

A nice C182RG was posted on the red board: http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=88769
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I let my membership slide....

I have been trying to stay under $40k on the purchase price, then figuring another $3-5k on hidden items, improvements, etc... They are out there in the $35-40k range.

I don't care about IFR, just want something that will be happy flying backcountry and landing on grass, while also making 150-300 mile business trips. Obviously a 180 or 185 would be better, but the 182's are fine, would serve my needs well.




That's too bad. Just curious, did you speak directly to the seller in the process?
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Never spoke with the owner directly. My buddy had been asked to do the selling, and I was more than happy with him representing my communications. I did type up the formal contract, and sent the PDF on to the Seller, so, in that way, he clearly was able to read what I was offering.



bullwinkle said:
Why does somebody without a certificate have a loan on an airplane, and for more than its value??
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My understanding is that he is a "successful businessman" who bought this for his kid to learn to fly, and then a couple of employees convinced him to keep it and let them fly it for free.

Seems the kid grew up, left hid Dad's checking account, and couldn't afford to fly the plane and/or lost interest in flying. The employees enjoyed the plane but felt no obligation to keep it clean, fix squawks, etc...

The loan supposedly came about back when prices were much higher (not sure if it was an aircraft loan, or the plane was just pledged on another type of note). He is just upside down on the plane, but his thinking is "small checks each month are better than a one-time much bigger check to get out from the loan". No logic, but that is the story.
 
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frfly172 said:
Well you are set on purchasing a 182 for short money and the seller noticed that.He underestimated your desire to own a 182 and yor right there are plenty of 182s around.the old adage comes true never buy the first airplane you look at.
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I honestly didn't think I could get a 182 in that price range. I thought they were holding more value. I started looking at Cherokee 235s, and they are easily in that range. Then I noticed a couple of 182's, and they are there. They are all 40-50 year old planes, they have drawbacks, but for a VFR, Backcountry, and Cross-country bird, they seem to be able to meet my needs.

There are more out there than I thought in that price range.
 
Keep looking there's a deal sooner or later.nothing wrong with an older airplane if its been maintained well.
 
I just can't stand going that slow, burning that much gas. But, it's a popular choice.
 
docmirror said:
I just can't stand going that slow, burning that much gas. But, it's a popular choice.
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Where I fly, the scenery is pretty spectacular. I wouldn't want to hurry thru the best places in life. :yes:


Tell me a better choice for "unimproved" strips, able to possibly haul 3 full sized men, and able to fly 130kts?

Also, the nice thing, is they are pretty "ordinary" planes, I am guessing there is always some sort of a market to sell it if I want to step up or step down...
 
I too went through several "$35K 182s" dealings when I was searching for a replacement aircraft after I sold the Warrior II. I fully admit I wouldn't commit that kind of effort at this price point, but I completely admire your due diligence. For me, in-depth logbook checks and a semi-forensic approach to extrapolating use and maintenance trends in the prior 36 months, verified that they were hangar queens or otherwise neglected to a point where it wasn't worth the effort.

In the end, I bought an Arrow II. I utilized the approach I described above, had a willingness to entertain aircraft with properly documented damage history and repair, and otherwise leveraged my position with cash on hand. The rest is timing and luck. I would have loved a 182 but it was the right price for the right equipment. I can't complain; 135KTAS at 9gph on a common-as-dirt PA-28 airframe and 40 more ponies for the climb than the warrior, keeps me happy.The guys selling 182Ps were out to lunch price-wise.

All that said, I don't want to think about buying or selling another airplane in a LONG time. The next time I trade this thing will be for a 2 seater 160KTAS experimental when the kids are out of the house, in 20 years. What I'm REALLY hoping that happens before then is that owner experimental becomes a reality; at that point I'll keep it for life, rip that crap o' certified panel for a Dynon AHRS setup and bolt a Lyco IO-540 with compatible C/S prop and get the Dakota RG Piper should have made in the first place.
 
I flew a couple years with a Doctor who owned a 64 C-182........one of us would fly left seat out and the other one fly left seat back........we had a blast in the thing. Never burned a drop of oil and ran like a top. It helped having a nice full color Bendix King GPS in it. Used 10 gph no matter what we did. Flew all over SoCal in that thing shooting IFR approaches, never landed gear up..........
 
The 182 has been "best of class" for as long as I can remember. Maybe the market just doesn't understand it as well as you do.

docmirror said:
I just can't stand going that slow, burning that much gas. But, it's a popular choice.
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my hanger partner is selling his 182. I think its a 63. Has no back window. swept back type fuselage. Don't know the exact hours but I wanna say its 6-800 on motor. Plane is in excellent shape. IMO needs upgraded radio's. He is 84yrs old and just doesn't fly anymore. Just had an annual done 3 months ago. Turn key airplane. Paint is a 7 Interior is a 7 (would be an 8-9 but he left the original carpet in when he did everything else). Told me he would like to get 35k for it

Plane is always in a hanger. Its in Ca, KCCB
 
wabower said:
The 182 has been "best of class" for as long as I can remember. Maybe the market just doesn't understand it as well as you do.
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There's no question that the market doesn't understand a lot of things as well as I. Beech never really had a trainer aircraft, so all the pilots who grew up on Cessna know only - Cessna. I don't know who you're quoting but I can't find any google results with that. All the 'best of class' results refer to some Kodak camera.

Bonanza's aren't your grandma's airplane. But - they will do what the OP wants, better than the 182.
 
Yep, everybody needs an old retrac. No question about it. Even if they have to sit on a suitcase to stay within the envelope.

docmirror said:
There's no question that the market doesn't understand a lot of things as well as I. Beech never really had a trainer aircraft, so all the pilots who grew up on Cessna know only - Cessna. I don't know who you're quoting but I can't find any google results with that. All the 'best of class' results refer to some Kodak camera.

Bonanza's aren't your grandma's airplane. But - they will do what the OP wants, better than the 182.
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I hate the Skin in The Game argument. When I bought my house I had to leave concessions on the table because the bank wanted to make sure I had skin in the game...

What, a 30 year note with a year and a half's worth of income tied to it isn't enough skin?
 
wabower said:
Yep, everybody needs an old retrac. No question about it. Even if they have to sit on a suitcase to stay within the envelope.
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If you're sitting on a suitcase, you're doing something wrong. The OP has three adults, add a bag for each, and take a typical loading graph for the N35 and it's right in the middle of the W&B peak. Unless for some bizarre reason two people want to sit in back, then you'll have to put a few bags in the front pax footwell. Which is easy and safe with the Bo, because the pax rudders will fold flat to the footwell floor and not interfere(unlike the Cessna). Glad you reminded me of yet another Bonanza advantage.
 
Yeah, they're great. Nobody ever had to leave anything behind or fly with aft CG. Nooooobody.

docmirror said:
If you're sitting on a suitcase, you're doing something wrong. The OP has three adults, add a bag for each, and take a typical loading graph for the N35 and it's right in the middle of the W&B peak. Unless for some bizarre reason two people want to sit in back, then you'll have to put a few bags in the front pax footwell. Which is easy and safe with the Bo, because the pax rudders will fold flat to the footwell floor and not interfere(unlike the Cessna). Glad you reminded me of yet another Bonanza advantage.
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My .02, you got lucky. Plenty of expensive little devils hiding in any aircraft that old with that kind of ownership. You could have easily ended up paying for the guys annual and having to walk. This is par for the course when bottom feeding.

I would rather spend $50K or $60K or whatever the market demands to get a bird that someone loves, spends whatever money is required to keep it right, and fly it themselves with their loved ones aboard.

Think of how much time and money you have into your first search. If it takes 10 tries to make a deal you could have used that money to find a much nicer bird to begin with.

I think you did a great job of negotiating an amicable deal. I'm not trying to be critical, just give a different perspective.
 
Finding and buying the best one available (of whatever) is often a viable strategy when measuring total ownership-cycle cost. The bottom-dwellers will never understand it, so they will continue to fish there.

Alexb2000 said:
My .02, you got lucky. Plenty of expensive little devils hiding in any aircraft that old with that kind of ownership. You could have easily ended up paying for the guys annual and having to walk. This is par for the course when bottom feeding.

I would rather spend $50K or $60K or whatever the market demands to get a bird that someone loves, spends whatever money is required to keep it right, and fly it themselves with their loved ones aboard.

Think of how much time and money you have into your first search. If it takes 10 tries to make a deal you could have used that money to find a much nicer bird to begin with.

I think you did a great job of negotiating an amicable deal. I'm not trying to be critical, just give a different perspective.
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wabower said:
Yeah, they're great. Nobody ever had to leave anything behind or fly with aft CG. Nooooobody.
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It hauls as much as the equivalent year 182, so if you're leaving things on the ground with the Bo, you'll leave the same things behind with a 182. If you're out of CG with the Bo, move someone to a different seat, or put a bag on the floor. my experience is that exceeding fwd CG is more common with some heavyweights in the plane.

Now, if you need to get out of a 900ft strip, maybe the Bo won't be your choice. But, if you're working out of 900ft, I don't want to go in with a 182 either.
 
Full-size people need full-size seats and foot-wells. Nor is the "well, you can't sit here because . . ." story a reassuring or palatable method of seating. But if you're hauling a blindfolded pygmy tribe, knock yourself out.

docmirror said:
It hauls as much as the equivalent year 182, so if you're leaving things on the ground with the Bo, you'll leave the same things behind with a 182. If you're out of CG with the Bo, move someone to a different seat, or put a bag on the floor.

Now, if you need to get out of a 900ft strip, maybe the Bo won't be your choice. But, if you're working out of 900ft, I don't want to go in with a 182 either.
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wabower said:
Full-size people need full-size seats and foot-wells. Nor is the "well, you can't sit here because . . ." story a reassuring or palatable method of seating. But if you're hauling a blindfolded pygmy tribe, knock yourself out.
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And you shall have them. I guarantee if you can fit it in a Cessna 182, I can fit it in the Bo of the same year. All 3 will have a seat, and a footwell. We will be in CG, and it will go faster, or use less fuel. The plane will perform better than the Cessna, and it will look good doing it. some will save more money if you choose to run auto fuel like the 182. The only thing it won't do is get out of 7-900ft runway.

Face it, the Bo just does more with the same stuff as the 182. I know that's aggravating but I didn't design them, I just report.
 
Back to the OP's deal... If you remove the $8K the Garmin is worth, used... Not including labor, that means that 182 is a $27K airplane deal with a 900 hour engine.

Pretty amazing how low it is. Guy could start parting it out for that. Engine is almost worth more than the airframe at that combined price.
 
When you discovered the owner was upside down on the plane, the chances of a successful sale were not good.
 
And we'll ignore all of the retrac issues and pilot qual because they don't matter either. Just find a drunk mechanic and good to go.

docmirror said:
And you shall have them. I guarantee if you can fit it in a Cessna 182, I can fit it in the Bo of the same year. All 3 will have a seat, and a footwell. We will be in CG, and it will go faster, or use less fuel. The plane will perform better than the Cessna, and it will look good doing it. some will save more money if you choose to run auto fuel like the 182. The only thing it won't do is get out of 7-900ft runway.

Face it, the Bo just does more with the same stuff as the 182. I know that's aggravating but I didn't design them, I just report.
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docmirror said:
http://barnstormers.com/classified_814661_1954+e+35.html

http://barnstormers.com/classified_814433_B35+Bonanza.html

http://barnstormers.com/classified_813366_1955+F-35+V-tail+Bonanza.html

http://barnstormers.com/classified_731432_1960+Beech+Bonanza+M35.html

http://barnstormers.com/classified_810723_Very+clean+N35+Bonanza.html

http://barnstormers.com/classified_810005_1961+Beechcraft+Bonanza+N-61.html

I'm sure you'll find something wrong with all of them. You're a Cessna man. :)
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Not a Cessna man, I got no brand loyalty. In the last 12 months I have bought a Ford PU, a Dodge Pu, and a GMC PU. They are all just tools and utilitarian devices to me.

I don't I would ever bestow an affectionate nick name on a plane.

I like the Bonanzas, even joined BeechTalk. But, until I go to Med School, I didn't think I was allowed to consider them.
 
Vf6cruiser said:
I flew a couple years with a Doctor who owned a 64 C-182........one of us would fly left seat out and the other one fly left seat back........we had a blast in the thing. Never burned a drop of oil and ran like a top. It helped having a nice full color Bendix King GPS in it. Used 10 gph no matter what we did. Flew all over SoCal in that thing shooting IFR approaches, never landed gear up..........
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Round number guesses on how much extra the insurance on a Bo is vs. the 182?

How much more expensive is the annual on a Bo vs the 182?
 
GAZOO said:
my hanger partner is selling his 182. I think its a 63. Has no back window. swept back type fuselage. Don't know the exact hours but I wanna say its 6-800 on motor. Plane is in excellent shape. IMO needs upgraded radio's. He is 84yrs old and just doesn't fly anymore. Just had an annual done 3 months ago. Turn key airplane. Paint is a 7 Interior is a 7 (would be an 8-9 but he left the original carpet in when he did everything else). Told me he would like to get 35k for it

Plane is always in a hanger. Its in Ca, KCCB
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That is exactly what I am looking for, and, they are out there.

I found one similar, much nicer than the original plane, for the same $35k. Guy selling is losing his medical, well taken care of. We have a "handshake " agreement on it, neither of us is in a hurry , likely a month or so.

If it falls apart, I will be pursuing your hangar partner.
 
35k 182

you get what you pay for.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I have tried having the ipad in my lap. But, like Nate, the knee board option will interfere with the yoke because of where I like my seat position.
Totally dependent on pilot quals. Not a show-stopper for experienced IR folks.
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How much more expensive is the annual on a Bo vs the 182?
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At a real shop or with Doc's drunk? More complexity means more stuff to inspect, rig, repair and results in bigger numbers for the Bo on an ongoing basis. Flat rate won't be a lot higher, but budget should be set a few notches higher "just because." The "oopsie" factor is always more ominous with more moving parts and pieces, but doesn't cause me to lose sleep.

Having owned Bo's and 210's over many years, I can't begin to relate how comforting the sight of a simple fixed-gear plane can be when it's sitting there with the cowling removed and a few panels open vs. a retrac sitting with jacks in place awaiting all the action to come.
 
To me the advantage of the 182 versus the Bonanza is the high wing. I just like that the high wing allows me to see the scenery below me much better. Not a big issue when flying IFR, but when flying VFR, I find it comforting to look down below and see the scenery.
 
SkyHog said:
I hate the Skin in The Game argument. When I bought my house I had to leave concessions on the table because the bank wanted to make sure I had skin in the game...

What, a 30 year note with a year and a half's worth of income tied to it isn't enough skin?
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Exactly. The "skin in the game" comment was a tad insulting. I was gone from my office for 3 days. I traveled and had hotels. Wasted a day and a half of my buddy's time. Had another high priced attorney modify a Gulfstream contract for my 182. There was "skin in the game".


Now, I just write it all off as " a vacation to see friends" and I have no remorse.

When somebody is offering to give you a $35k check in a couple of days, you might want to quit countering.
 
docmirror said:
If you're sitting on a suitcase, you're doing something wrong. The OP has three adults, add a bag for each, and take a typical loading graph for the N35 and it's right in the middle of the W&B peak. Unless for some bizarre reason two people want to sit in back, then you'll have to put a few bags in the front pax footwell. Which is easy and safe with the Bo, because the pax rudders will fold flat to the footwell floor and not interfere(unlike the Cessna). Glad you reminded me of yet another Bonanza advantage.
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I also want to haul dead animals out of back country strips. Can a BO do that?


(By the way, a couple of the ones you linked are sweet.)
 
To me the advantage of the 182 versus the Bonanza is the high wing. I just like that the high wing allows me to see the scenery below me much better. Not a big issue when flying IFR, but when flying VFR, I find it comforting to look down below and see the scenery.
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Two doors are nice, too. Also being able to get in and out after you get past 40 or so :).
 
Alexb2000 said:
My .02, you got lucky. Plenty of expensive little devils hiding in any aircraft that old with that kind of ownership. You could have easily ended up paying for the guys annual and having to walk. This is par for the course when bottom feeding.

I would rather spend $50K or $60K or whatever the market demands to get a bird that someone loves, spends whatever money is required to keep it right, and fly it themselves with their loved ones aboard.

Think of how much time and money you have into your first search. If it takes 10 tries to make a deal you could have used that money to find a much nicer bird to begin with.

I think you did a great job of negotiating an amicable deal. I'm not trying to be critical, just give a different perspective.
Click to expand...


A big part of the value and confidence of the original plane was my buddy's assessment and willingness to help me get it to the condition I wanted it. We flew the plane, it flew nice. No regrets walking away. And, I got to see old friends, had some nice dinners, and hung around an airport hangar for a couple of days. Good times.
 
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