sticky valves?

[dmccormack]

Personally I think it's the Chevy/Ford argument. Yeah, each one has its weak points. I like my Ford better than the Chevys I used to have. Is either one really better than the other? No, I think they're all about the same. Each of us has had whatever experiences we've had that make us like or dislike one more than the other. And at the end of the day, we probably just end up with whatever makes the most sense for us to own or use.

If you said Ford/ Chevy vs Honda argument, then there would be an easy winner.



This is our first Honda (2005 Accord). 167k miles and still runs like it did day one.

Wow.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

If you said Ford/ Chevy vs Honda argument, then there would be an easy winner.

Chevy vs. Ford/Honda...:wink2:

But I fly behind a Rotax, so what do I know?

 

[tonycondon]

If you said Ford/ Chevy vs Honda argument, then there would be an easy winner.



This is our first Honda (2005 Accord). 167k miles and still runs like it did day one.

Wow.

my oldsmobile has similar mileage and still runs fine. My GMC pickup has ~260,000 and i won't blink at pulling the trailer 1000's of miles with it this summer (until I have to fill it up with gas)

 

[Ted]

If you said Ford/ Chevy vs Honda argument, then there would be an easy winner.



This is our first Honda (2005 Accord). 167k miles and still runs like it did day one.

Wow.

My Ford Excursion has 151,115 miles on it as of this morning. I bought it at 90,000 miles. Very few issues, runs great.

A Ford or a Chevy is no worse than a Honda. And truthfully, I'll take the Ford or the Chevy any day - I hate the way Hondas drive, and hate working on them even more.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

If you said Ford/ Chevy vs Honda argument, then there would be an easy winner.



This is our first Honda (2005 Accord). 167k miles and still runs like it did day one.

Wow.

my oldsmobile has similar mileage and still runs fine. My GMC pickup has ~260,000 and i won't blink at pulling the trailer 1000's of miles with it this summer (until I have to fill it up with gas)

My Ford Excursion has 151,115 miles on it as of this morning. I bought it at 90,000 miles. Very few issues, runs great.

A Ford or a Chevy is no worse than a Honda. And truthfully, I'll take the Ford or the Chevy any day - I hate the way Hondas drive, and hate working on them even more.

And one of the reasons you get so many miles out of an engnie without an overhaul nowadays is the PCV system...

 

[Ted]

And one of the reasons you get so many miles out of an engnie without an overhaul nowadays is the PCV system...

There are a lot of aspects to it. Fuel injection has helped by getting better air/fuel ratios. Better materials and processes for building the bits. Overdrive transmissions allow engines to spin slower. Better tolerances, water cooling...

Of course, the engines in the 310 have about 380,000 miles on them since overhaul. The plane has around 1.5 million miles on it.

 

[Dan Thomas]

What are you using for oil? bacon grease?

Aeroshell 15W50. The cooler climate here doesn't help, and the cooling setup in the Citabria is most at fault. There's just far too much cooling. The front sides of the front cylinders, where the incoming air blasts the fins, get it the worst, but all the cylinders experience pitting. Both the first and second engines did it and required cylinder work at about mid-time after aluminum chips showed up in the screen.

We don't have the problem with any of the other Lycs in the fleet (O-320s/360s/540s/IO-360s.). Just the 235.

Dan

 

[dmccormack]

My Ford Excursion has 151,115 miles on it as of this morning. I bought it at 90,000 miles. Very few issues, runs great.

A Ford or a Chevy is no worse than a Honda. And truthfully, I'll take the Ford or the Chevy any day - I hate the way Hondas drive, and hate working on them even more.

I have an F-150 with 70k. It's --ok. Repairs are expensive.

The Accord is the first car I've owned in 30 years of buying new that has been maintenance-free (replaced serpentine, tires, oil, filters, brakes) and still is as tight as new. And it still gets 30 MPG all day, doing 80 MPH up and down the hills of WV and western PA.

The GMs I've driven start to rattle, float, and generally fall part after 100k.

 

[Tom-D]

Aeroshell 15W50. The cooler climate here doesn't help, and the cooling setup in the Citabria is most at fault. There's just far too much cooling. The front sides of the front cylinders, where the incoming air blasts the fins, get it the worst, but all the cylinders experience pitting. Both the first and second engines did it and required cylinder work at about mid-time after aluminum chips showed up in the screen.

We don't have the problem with any of the other Lycs in the fleet (O-320s/360s/540s/IO-360s.). Just the 235.

Dan

That is your problem, use some thing with some corrosion protection.

My 0-235 customers use 20W50 Phillips and have no problems, but Exon Ellette is the best corrosion protection

 

[N801BH]

corrosion pitting isn't the big boogy man that many folks think it is, the cylinder wall material gets converted from iron, to iron oxide during the corrosion process, that oxide falls out into the oil and is carried away, leaving a hole in the wall we call a pit. That pit will fill with oil when the piston is above it, then the rings pass over the pit as it goes toward the bottom of the cylinder on the power stroke, and scrapes away the excess oil leaving the pit full of oil that gets burned during combustion, leaving a carbon deposit in the pit, which gets polished smooth on the up stroke, and the process is repeated until the pit fills with carbon. Making carbon in this manor (heat and pressure) is the first stage of making a diamond. the carbon is very hard.
This is the reason we do the cross hatch pattern during the honing of a cylinder, hoping the scratch will fill with hard carbon and stop wear. and it has been proven to work.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
At this point I should explain the concept and reason behind the "cross hatch" method of conditioning cylinder surfaces.

1- The main reason for cross hatching the cylinder walls is to help the rings seat without adding excessive wear to them. Different applications call for different intersecting angles fo the microscopic scratches embedded in the walls. 99% of the time you try to achieve a 90 to 120 degree intersecting angle. The shallower the angle the faster the ring will "wear in" or seat. During this break in time the ring will slightly rotate in the piston ring land which actually laps in the surface while the face of the ring thats in contact with the cylinder wall is being 'sheared off' ever so slowly to conform to the cylinder bore and its small but always present imperfections. Too steep of a crosshatch and you get the ring rotating a few degrees back and forth as it travels up and down in the cylinder but not properly shearing off its contact face. Too shallow of a crosshatch pattern will introduce too much shear without the slight rotation needed to help the ring take a set in the piston ring land.

2- As for your theory of oil turning to carbon in the small pits of the cylinder surface,,, that happens to a very small extent and only up real close to the combustion chamber of the cylinder as it takes heat to transform that oil into carbon. At the bottom of the stroke there is not enought heat to promote this process. If the pitting is located down close to the base only the iol ring will travel across the pitted section and there will be additional oil consumption as the pits will not fill in and "carbon" over. From experience I can verify there is additional HP to be made from the honing process alone. On a qualifying motor a shallow angle is preferred as that promotes quick ring break in / sealing. They don't care about longevity. For endurance motors you want a cross hatch angle of around 110 degrees.

3---- Another small but critical aspect of the cross hatch is to be able to 'store' a very slight amount of engineoil to help lubricate the piston/ rings as they rub across that surface multiple times a minute. Too fine of a honing stone will not leave the proper 'ditches' the honing stone will transfer. Too course of the honing stone used will add to early piston rings wearing. Too fine of stone and the cylinder has a greater chance of glazing over too.

Ben Haas.
www.haaspowerair.com

 

[el con]

I have an F-150 with 70k. It's --ok. Repairs are expensive.

The Accord is the first car I've owned in 30 years of buying new that has been maintenance-free (replaced serpentine, tires, oil, filters, brakes) and still is as tight as new. And it still gets 30 MPG all day, doing 80 MPH up and down the hills of WV and western PA.

The GMs I've driven start to rattle, float, and generally fall part after 100k.

Tish Tosh
I've got a 2005 GMC Safari Van with 305,000+ on it , just drove it from Mi. to Gulf Shores ALA.and back in a weekend at 70-80 mph. I see no reason to send profit money to foreign countries, our nit wits in Washington give enough away. I've seen Honda's that try and make it to 300,000, they are just a pile of rice hulls at that point. My ex-son in law had a Honda Qualude( I mean Prelude) and after 125,000 what a POS.
I do like their Motorcycles and generators though.

Back to Aviation, on oil Aeroshell 15W-50 is 50% synthetic and I have read it is great in an engine used everyday, but for more occasional use engines something with 0% synthetic is recommended, it sticks better to the internal parts. Corrosion is the killer on most aero engines, I've read that Cam Guard is a good product.
It would be nice to have a cockpit controlled winterization plate to be able to open or close as neccessary a slide or guillotine(spelling?)
I heard something like this was being developed.

 

[Ted]

I have an F-150 with 70k. It's --ok. Repairs are expensive.

The Accord is the first car I've owned in 30 years of buying new that has been maintenance-free (replaced serpentine, tires, oil, filters, brakes) and still is as tight as new. And it still gets 30 MPG all day, doing 80 MPH up and down the hills of WV and western PA.

The GMs I've driven start to rattle, float, and generally fall part after 100k.

Our experiences are different. I got rid of my '97 GMC Sierra work truck when, after 173,000 miles (the first 142 of which were DOT construction, the last 30 of which were me), it threw the #8 rod. My '95 Suburban had 214,000 miles on its 454 and 4L80-E when the transfer case went out, and I decided to get the Excursion, mentioned above.

My motorcycles barely get 30 mpg, but that's because I try to have vehicles that give me an excuse to fly.

 

[Dan Thomas]

That is your problem, use some thing with some corrosion protection.

My 0-235 customers use 20W50 Phillips and have no problems, but Exon Ellette is the best corrosion protection

Phillips may have some better corrosion protection, but we don't have any corrosion issues with the rest of the fleet. None. Just the O-235. The Phillips wouldn't change the amount of water condensing in the case, anyway, and such a large amount would be difficult to deal with in preventing corrosion. The real solution is for American Champion to develop a better cooling system and send out an SB on it.

Dan

 

[Jeanie]

Well, I got a call today from the mechanic that just replacing the cylinders/pistons etc won't do. The engine is going to have to be completely replaced which means that we will be looking for a factory overhauled/rebuilt engine starting tomorrow.

 

[Tom-D]

Phillips may have some better corrosion protection, but we don't have any corrosion issues with the rest of the fleet. None. Just the O-235. The Phillips wouldn't change the amount of water condensing in the case, anyway, and such a large amount would be difficult to deal with in preventing corrosion. The real solution is for American Champion to develop a better cooling system and send out an SB on it.

Dan

Try putting in the winter baffle kit, raise the temps a bit, see what happens./

 

[Tom-D]

Well, I got a call today from the mechanic that just replacing the cylinders/pistons etc won't do. The engine is going to have to be completely replaced which means that we will be looking for a factory overhauled/rebuilt engine starting tomorrow.

that's the poorest choice you have.

 

[Jeanie]

OK, what's a better choice? I'm all ears uh, eyes...

 

[Tom-D]

OK, what's a better choice? I'm all ears uh, eyes...

custom overhaul by Charley Malot. "Zepher engines" google them, call and see what Charley says.

I don't do Lycomings or I'd say send it here.

 

[Ted]

Jeanie:

When looking around at options for overhauls on the 310, I called several places. Notably, PennYan, Teledyne Mattituck (Continental), Western Skyways, Signature Engines, and Zephyr engines (who Tom recommends). There were some others who I can't remember.

Zephyr had the highest price, longest lead time, worst warranty, and I was least impressed in talking to them. Plus, aside from Tom trying to bolster his sales, I haven't heard of anyone who's actually used him independently. Anyone who has, feel free to chime in. At the moment, we're looking at Western Skyways for the 310, as they had the best price, best warranty, and (other than Tom, who denounces them) those I've talked to have given me similar feedback to factory overhaul or Penn Yan.

Factory overhaul is a good option, despite what Tom says (and I haven't heard him give any reasons why everyone other than he and Zephyr are idiots). I believe this to be true for either brand L or brand C. There are also good overhaul shops out there who do offer good warranties and service after the sale. That's the real important thing from my perspective, because you have to live with this engine for a long time.

It is worth your time to call around to the various options you have, and talking to people who've dealt with it recently. There are also plenty of individuals (like Tom) who can do field overhauls. I believe that Lycoming is offering some deals on factory rebuilt engines (which come as 0 time engines). It's worth calling and asking, I don't know the details of the offer. It's just one of the many things to consider.

Now, out of curiosity, why does your mechanic say that it needs to be overhauled?