Stepping Up to a Bonanza

bluesky74656

bluesky74656

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
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746
Location
Brecksville, OH
Display Name
Display name:
Todd Kooser
For my entire flying career I've been tooling around in 152s and 172s. Now as I'm close to getting my Instrument I'm going to start training for the HP and Complex endorsements. On Wednesday I'm going to go for my first ride in the club's Bonanza BE35.

I know the thing is going to be wicked fast compared to anything else I've flown (with the exception of the replica Japanese Zero I got a couple minutes in a couple years ago). Is there anything in particular I should be watching out for? Or is it such a different beast that I'm going to be learning to fly all over again?
 
bluesky74656 said:
For my entire flying career I've been tooling around in 152s and 172s. Now as I'm close to getting my Instrument I'm going to start training for the HP and Complex endorsements. On Wednesday I'm going to go for my first ride in the club's Bonanza BE35.

I know the thing is going to be wicked fast compared to anything else I've flown (with the exception of the replica Japanese Zero I got a couple minutes in a couple years ago). Is there anything in particular I should be watching out for? Or is it such a different beast that I'm going to be learning to fly all over again?
Click to expand...

You will find it a joy and the easiest plane you have ever flown, after your first landing you will wonder why you didn't just start with this machine.
 
They fly much nicer than a 172 or 152. Make sure you keep it properly trimmed - it's a heavy airplane!

They land nice and smooth. My best landings have been in Bonanzas and Barons.
 
You don't have to fly them faster (g). One of the biggest issues I've seen folks face is just having to make decisions and do things faster. That will come, but until you have a handle on everything, just slow down a bit. Pull the power back in pattern work after departure and initial climb: same when approaching the airport/pattern. Find a power setting that gets you slowed down to a speed at which you're more comfortable.

Have a great time.

Best,

Dave
 
Really, the only thing I remember having to get used to is getting down and slowing down sooner.
 
hiflier said:
Really, the only thing I remember having to get used to is getting down and slowing down sooner.
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No doubt, you need to plan your approaches a little more. They're slippery when the gear is retracted. :yes:
 
Don't let the airplane take you anywhere your brain didn't get you ten minutes earlier. Bonanzas pick up speed quickly any time the nose is below the horizon (especially in a spiral dive) and they don't like to slow down. Advance planning is the key.

Read Flying The Beech Bonanza by John C. Eckalbar. Excellent and thorough explanation of the idiosyncrasies of the breed in handling, performance, systems, weight & balance, etc.
 
Never flew a Bonanza but I remember the Baron being easy to land if your patient and get the numbers right. Very smooth compared to the Cessna and Piper counterparts.
 
Pilawt said:
Don't let the airplane take you anywhere your brain didn't get you ten minutes earlier. Bonanzas pick up speed quickly any time the nose is below the horizon (especially in a spiral dive) and they don't like to slow down. Advance planning is the key.
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Actually they slow down quite well. I run into pilots all the time in transitions that think it won't slow down -- of course it won't -- when your nose is pointed down and the power is high. Back the power down and hold the nose level...that's all it takes..doesn't take long.
 
Consult the POH for recommended speeds for approach and landing. Then listen to Bo pilots tell you the speeds they use. Then try to figure out why the pilots speeds are ~10 knots faster than the book. Then try to figure out how far the plane will float over the runway before the extra speed dissipates so that you can touch down.
 
One nice thing about Bonanzas and Barons is that the trim wheel has calibration markings.
What I always did on my Travelair when I needed to make a speed change is set the throttle, prop and trim to my known good numbers for the configuration and then hold the plane level as the force eases the yoke while it attains and settles in at it's new speed, then I trim the power to get it to hold altitude, climb or descend as required.
 
What year? Bonanza(BE35 is the IACO designator). There are some differences in years that could be important.

One thing that most fixed gear pilots find a bit weird is the trim change when the gear comes down. You'll get used to it. Stay stabilized, and you'll do fine.

Another change is that you'll likely have gobs of power that you don't need compared to a 152. Once you are airborne, and get the gear up pull the power back on climb out. There's no reason to stress things with power you don't really need.
 
wabower said:
Consult the POH for recommended speeds for approach and landing. Then listen to Bo pilots tell you the speeds they use. Then try to figure out why the pilots speeds are ~10 knots faster than the book. Then try to figure out how far the plane will float over the runway before the extra speed dissipates so that you can touch down.
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Yeah, most seem to fly them like they're jets. I didn't know they could approach so slow and land so short until I saw a guy bring in a late-50's Bonanza into a 2300' grass strip with trees on both ends. He carried a little power, flew a slow approach...I assume at no more than 1.2Vso, and was stopped about halfway down the runway...going downhill. I'd never seen a Bonanza handled that well and flown so slow on final. Haven't seen it since.
 
For some reason they have three settings stuck in their head:

1. Don't fly less than 90 IAS in the pattern, especially on final.
2. Don't taxi at less than 1,500 RPM, no matter how much brake pressure is required.
3. All starts must be accompanied by sufficient throttle to achieve 1,600 RPM when it catches.

The gear retraction technique includes two options:
1. Yank it as soon as the wheels lose contact with the runway.
2. Try to look cool pulling it up after reaching 2,500' AGL about 4 miles past the end of the runway when cruise speed appears to be lower than normal.


RoscoeT said:
Yeah, most seem to fly them like they're jets. I didn't know they could approach so slow and land so short until I saw a guy bring in a late-50's Bonanza into a 2300' grass strip with trees on both ends. He carried a little power, flew a slow approach...I assume at no more than 1.2Vso, and was stopped about halfway down the runway...going downhill. I'd never seen a Bonanza handled that well and flown so slow on final. Haven't seen it since.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for all the advice. I'm glad to hear they're relatively docile.

The one I'll be taking on Wednesday is a P35. The club also has an S35 and an A36.

I'm not going to get a chance to see the POH until I get to the airport on Wednesday. Does anyone have a good source for an online copy so I can start looking it over before then?
 
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The hardest part will likely be that you have more knobs and gadgets to play with but you'll be going much faster, so your brain may be a bit overwhelmed at first. A good checkout (not a pencil whipping) will take care of most of it. Don't be afraid to pull the power back and slow down if you start feeling like you're behind the plane, and do everything earlier. (For example, I try to get the ATIS at least 40 miles out these days, and that's about the limit for reception much of the time.) You'll also need to plan your descents better and start them MUCH sooner than in a slower plane.

But, the bottom line after all that is exactly what David says:

DavidWhite said:
It's still an airplane, remember to put the folding bits up and down, and more right rudder.
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Just don't get a cavalier attitude about it and you'll be fine. (You're not a doctor, right? ;) :D)
 
wabower said:
Consult the POH for recommended speeds for approach and landing. Then listen to Bo pilots tell you the speeds they use. Then try to figure out why the pilots speeds are ~10 knots faster than the book. Then try to figure out how far the plane will float over the runway before the extra speed dissipates so that you can touch down.
Click to expand...

Also remember those published speeds are for max gross weight and at typical weights even the published speeds will be high. During your check out, fly the plane at different weights, do a stall and then using the IAS-CAS table make yourself a speed card that gives 1.2 & 1.3 Vs in that plane with those loads. I usually come up with solo and .5hr fuel, solo loaded with fuel, 2 up with half fuel and max cargo compartment weight, and then I confirm max gross weight figures from the book. That gives me real numbers for my most common landing configurations in that airframe (rigging errors can alter the book numbers so it makes a quick and dirty rigging check, stall speed as well as cruise speed numbers matching book).

Also fly the plane around for a while at minimum controllable airspeed with the stall warning on so you can get a feel for just how slow a Bo can go, and it is really slow and it still handles well.
 
Watching them reminds me of the guy who wore a Tux to his vasectomy.

If you're going to be impotent you gots to look the part.

Pilawt said:
More if somebody else's airplane or open hangar door is immediately behind.

:mad2:
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bluesky74656 said:
Thanks for all the advice. I'm glad to hear they're relatively docile.

The one I'll be taking on Wednesday is a P35. The club also has an S35 and an A36.

I'm not going to get a chance to see the POH until I get to the airport on Wednesday. Does anyone have a good source for an online copy so I can start looking it over before then?
Click to expand...

I have the old version of the N/P POH in PDF pm me your email address and I'll send it when I get home. The plane youre flying will likely have the new version that contains a lot more data and is contained in a small three ring binder.
 
wabower said:
The gear retraction technique includes two options:
1. Yank it as soon as the wheels lose contact with the runway.
2. Try to look cool pulling it up after reaching 2,500' AGL about 4 miles past the end of the runway when cruise speed appears to be lower than normal.
Click to expand...

I pull the gear up at about 300' AGL and climbing. That's about what mine takes to get the gear back down at best glide.
 
I was thinking the same thing. We have two puny little Archers in my club.
 
This is for Wayne.

I recently transitioned from a PA28-150 to an N35 Bonanza, Basically P with a worse panel. The P may have a higher gear down speed too.


For my checkout, My CFI had me study the POH for a couple of days before the first trip. Our first lesson we spent a couple hours on the ground going page by page through the POH hitting the high spots. Then we went to the plane and did "mock" emergency scenarios, on the ground, engine off. He'd give me a scenario like: no gear down light, engine running rough, engine quit, engine quit just after take off, engine quit in cruise etc... and make me react from memory about what to do.

After that we went up and did basic maneuvers, figured out where it stalled at etc..

PROTIP: If you've been stalling 172s the Bonanza's power off stall is abrupt, coming from a PA28 that just sort of mushes around, it was eye opening, power on stalls are a non event. I do recommend being 2 or three mistakes high.

We then went and practiced landing in various scenarios, we'd turn final 2000' above the runway, chop power abeam the numbers and land from pattern altitude, fly the lenght of the runway at 10' AGL just above stall speed in the landing configuration etc..

I've found that 90MPH final and have the power off at 80MPH over the fence works out well, I have no problem making the 1600' turn off with those numbers, I'm not sure how you get a Bonanza to float with the power off. When I fly 80MPH on final, I tend to plop it in. I'm not a fan of carrying power across the fence, though I understand some Bo pilots land that way.

Handles like it's on rails, very responsive and smooth. The cherokee was more akin to "making suggestions" where the Bo does what you tell it.

You have to plan a little bit ahead, not a big deal but it's something to get used to. If You're gear up WOT entering the pattern, you're going to have a hard time landing. GUMPS GUMPS GUMPS GUMPS GUMPS. I have a bare minimum landing checklist attached to the panel that gets referenced after 3 or 4 gumps checks.

If you were unfamiliar with the right rudder, you will learn what P factor is on your first take off. The second big difference you're going to notice is the impressive climb rate. I trim mine nose down slightly more than the markings say, mainly for CHT purposes, and I don't typically need to get to altitude that fast.

The various power settings and prop configurations seem complex at first, after a few trips, you'll have em' all down and it'll be a non issue, but it does add to your work load at first.

The tail does wag in turbulence, but the Bonanza seems to handle the turbulence better than my Cherokee did. Keep some pressure on both rudders, not a bid deal. You can also slow down in turbulence to get some relief (and should slow down if it's rough).

IMHO, the Bonanza is easier to land well than a cherokee. It lands like a dream, handles cross winds with ease, don't land with a side load.

My first solo trip, I took off and let the plane get ahead of me, it was climbing like a banshee, and I sort of froze, blew through my altitude and my brain froze on what to do with the prop, fuel, mixture, cowl flaps, trim, autopilot etc... visibility wasn't great with the forest fires in the area and that added to my anxiety. I let it climb and climb to give me some space and pointed it towards a 9,000' x 150' runway and got my bearings back, landed taxied to the FBO and realized that I needed a better game plan. About an hour later, I took back off and did pattern laps at the huge runway so that I had plenty of time to go through the motions. 100% sure I was overconfident. Haven't had an issue since, stay ahead of the plane.
 
wabower said:
For some reason they have three settings stuck in their head:


The gear retraction technique includes two options:
1. Yank it as soon as the wheels lose contact with the runway.
2. Try to look cool pulling it up after reaching 2,500' AGL about 4 miles past the end of the runway when cruise speed appears to be lower than normal.
Click to expand...


My Dad tells a story of flying a rented Bo. Something was not right, he could not get up to speed and it just felt wrong. Being conservative he decided he had better land and figure out what was going on. He found an airport and was coming in to land. When he went to extend the gear, he found the problem and retracted the gear instead and went on his way.
 
Not necessarily. Some pros take the position that climb performance is more important to safety than the hypothetical "usable runway remaining" criteria and retract the gear when positive and stabilized rate of climb is achieved.

Bobanna said:
Oh, and the professional criteria for gear retraction is "when the aircraft reaches an altitude where landing on the remaining runway is no longer possible." The fast cycle time of the electric gear may allow retraction (and re-extension below this criterion, however...but fly it like a pro. The planes behave beautifully in the pattern at 70 knots with approach flaps (17 deg, parallel to full aileron deflection) with a little power still on, but I wouldn't make a habit of being much slower than that until you cross the runway threshold. Not difficult to mix with 150s and cherokees in the pattern, but don't start a take-off roll too close. Nuf said.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Not necessarily. Some pros take the position that climb performance is more important to safety than the hypothetical "usable runway remaining" criteria and retract the gear when positive and stabilized rate of climb is achieved.
Click to expand...

I'm of that opinion as well, especially given the typical results of a gear up landing; I wouldn't even try to put the gear back down if altitude was slim.
 
Bobanna said:
Your comments are valid and appreciated. I would add that gear retraction "after establishing a climb attitude and a positive rate" is that used in heavier turbine equipment that have the power remaining if one engine should fail. Singles and light twins generally return to earth in short order if an engine fails on departure over the runway...If there's runway there aren't you better off touching down with wheels? Certainly, there are exceptions where immediate gear retraction produces the best odds of a successful departure
Click to expand...

Depends on the airplane, too - On some airplanes, the gear retraction sequence increases drag. I believe the Bonanza is one of those airplanes (as are the single-engine Cessna retracts).

Choose wisely.
 
Bobanna said:
Wayne/Henning:

Your comments are valid and appreciated. I would add that gear retraction "after establishing a climb attitude and a positive rate" is that used in heavier turbine equipment that have the power remaining if one engine should fail. Singles and light twins generally return to earth in short order if an engine fails on departure over the runway...If there's runway there aren't you better off touching down with wheels? Certainly, there are exceptions where immediate gear retraction produces the best odds of a successful departure, and my humble opinion is ofered to the OP transitioning to a retractable, high-performance airplane without contention. Actual results may vary.
Click to expand...


Not necessarily, very little damage is done in a belly landing and you stop fast. Also if/when you go off the end gear may beak off and cause a damage situation that ruptures a fuel tank. There's pros and cons to both. A major factor of consideration is the runway environment and extensions, that's why we 'brief takeoffs'. This is especially true because it is a fallacy that light twins will not climb out on one, that is a function of mission weight; even a lowely 150hp fat Apache will climb out OEI at light weights. Every take off is unique and must be considered individually. With twins the gear issue is moot anyway because single engine performance after rotation trumps any advantage wheels on set down may have and mandates we operate "Positive Rate; Gear Up".
 
I've developed a take off habit that works well. It's kind of independent of altitude. Once I get airborne, and moving nicely, I reach over and pull the noise-maker back to 2300, look down for a gauge check and if everything is fine I reach for the gear. I guess that qualifies as stabilized climb profile, but it's independent of runway type or length. My home is 2200 turf, so there isn't much use in keeping the gear down any longer than I have to because it ain't gonna help much when I'm climbing over the Shell station.

As for my landing profile, I do the entry and downwind about 80-85MPH before putting the gear down. No one has mentioned it yet, but keeping the speed down on gear extension keeps the pressure off the gear drive. I go over the fence around 75, or a bit less. I found when I don't hold a little power on final I reach the aft stops on the elevator with two in front. If I have rear seat pax, and bags I add 5MPH to that and can turn the power off over the fence because the CG is somewhat more aft.

One thing I'd advise for the OP that has been said is to get some weight in back and do a few stalls at altitude. It's quite a bit different than the Piper. Also, if your CFI doesn't make you do two emer gear extensions you should ask to do them yourself. The Bo is not an enjoyable plane to do an emer gear extension. I do one every BFR, and should prolly do two of them.
 
Todd, just remember that when you do the short field landing, the book is governed by the SLOWEST speed in whcih there is enough energy to arrest descent, if the flare is applied fully and at the correct moment. You will feel like you are dropping like a rock. Make sure someone with a bit of time doing that one maneuver in type, is with you the first time. Your eyes will be quite wide open.
 
Like any HP plane, the Bonanza has a potential to bite you, but you have to work for it.
 
bartmc said:
This is for Wayne.

I recently transitioned from a PA28-150 to an N35 Bonanza, Basically P with a worse panel. The P may have a higher gear down speed too.


For my checkout, My CFI had me study the POH for a couple of days before the first trip. Our first lesson we spent a couple hours on the ground going page by page through the POH hitting the high spots. Then we went to the plane and did "mock" emergency scenarios, on the ground, engine off. He'd give me a scenario like: no gear down light, engine running rough, engine quit, engine quit just after take off, engine quit in cruise etc... and make me react from memory about what to do.

After that we went up and did basic maneuvers, figured out where it stalled at etc..

PROTIP: If you've been stalling 172s the Bonanza's power off stall is abrupt, coming from a PA28 that just sort of mushes around, it was eye opening, power on stalls are a non event. I do recommend being 2 or three mistakes high.

We then went and practiced landing in various scenarios, we'd turn final 2000' above the runway, chop power abeam the numbers and land from pattern altitude, fly the lenght of the runway at 10' AGL just above stall speed in the landing configuration etc..

I've found that 90MPH final and have the power off at 80MPH over the fence works out well, I have no problem making the 1600' turn off with those numbers, I'm not sure how you get a Bonanza to float with the power off. When I fly 80MPH on final, I tend to plop it in. I'm not a fan of carrying power across the fence, though I understand some Bo pilots land that way.

Handles like it's on rails, very responsive and smooth. The cherokee was more akin to "making suggestions" where the Bo does what you tell it.

You have to plan a little bit ahead, not a big deal but it's something to get used to. If You're gear up WOT entering the pattern, you're going to have a hard time landing. GUMPS GUMPS GUMPS GUMPS GUMPS. I have a bare minimum landing checklist attached to the panel that gets referenced after 3 or 4 gumps checks.

If you were unfamiliar with the right rudder, you will learn what P factor is on your first take off. The second big difference you're going to notice is the impressive climb rate. I trim mine nose down slightly more than the markings say, mainly for CHT purposes, and I don't typically need to get to altitude that fast.

The various power settings and prop configurations seem complex at first, after a few trips, you'll have em' all down and it'll be a non issue, but it does add to your work load at first.

The tail does wag in turbulence, but the Bonanza seems to handle the turbulence better than my Cherokee did. Keep some pressure on both rudders, not a bid deal. You can also slow down in turbulence to get some relief (and should slow down if it's rough).

IMHO, the Bonanza is easier to land well than a cherokee. It lands like a dream, handles cross winds with ease, don't land with a side load.

My first solo trip, I took off and let the plane get ahead of me, it was climbing like a banshee, and I sort of froze, blew through my altitude and my brain froze on what to do with the prop, fuel, mixture, cowl flaps, trim, autopilot etc... visibility wasn't great with the forest fires in the area and that added to my anxiety. I let it climb and climb to give me some space and pointed it towards a 9,000' x 150' runway and got my bearings back, landed taxied to the FBO and realized that I needed a better game plan. About an hour later, I took back off and did pattern laps at the huge runway so that I had plenty of time to go through the motions. 100% sure I was overconfident. Haven't had an issue since, stay ahead of the plane.
Click to expand...
Rusty, I'd say you had an excellent instructor for the transition. Learning important stuff in the plane on the ground sounds like a good idea.
 
Predicting the outcome of any such event in advance is drawing bulls-eyes around the bullet holes. The hypothetical window that you're describing opens and closes so quickly that it's a non-event in real life. Just pick the method you like and move on. You'll be happy and nobody else gives a rats.

Bobanna said:
Wayne/Henning:

Your comments are valid and appreciated. I would add that gear retraction "after establishing a climb attitude and a positive rate" is that used in heavier turbine equipment that have the power remaining if one engine should fail. Singles and light twins generally return to earth in short order if an engine fails on departure over the runway...If there's runway there aren't you better off touching down with wheels? Certainly, there are exceptions where immediate gear retraction produces the best odds of a successful departure, and my humble opinion is ofered to the OP transitioning to a retractable, high-performance airplane without contention. Actual results may vary.
Click to expand...
 
I wish Bart hadn't mentioned it because up to now it's been a well-kept secret among CFI's. We know that pilots want to be in the airplane, and will make up any excuse to avoid ground training. So we just tell them to meet us at the airplane, then on the side we tell the line crew to stand by with the power cart.

When Joe Student shows up we let him get all strapped in the pilot seat where he's happy and then bring up "some things we should talk about before we go flying." We know there's now way in hell we'll have enough time to cover all that stuff and fly afterwards, but the student doesn't know that.

Once we're done with all the stuff that required discussion, we look at our watch and say "wow, that was a good session and you did great, but it's too late to fly today, let's get together later in the week" and hop out.

Jester said:
Rusty, I'd say you had an excellent instructor for the transition. Learning important stuff in the plane on the ground sounds like a good idea.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
I wish Bart hadn't mentioned it because up to now it's been a well-kept secret among CFI's. We know that pilots want to be in the airplane, and will make up any excuse to avoid ground training. So we just tell them to meet us at the airplane, then on the side we tell the line crew to stand by with the power cart.

When Joe Student shows up we let him get all strapped in the pilot seat where he's happy and then bring up "some things we should talk about before we go flying." We know there's now way in hell we'll have enough time to cover all that stuff and fly afterwards, but the student doesn't know that.

Once we're done with all the stuff that required discussion, we look at our watch and say "wow, that was a good session and you did great, but it's too late to fly today, let's get together later in the week" and hop out.
Click to expand...

It's really the best and most efficient way to learn modern avionics, it's what I did. I have a visual memory and needed to physically scroll through all the menus several times watching everything go by so I could get from where I was to where I needed to go by feel.
 
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