Stepping out of the comfort zone

[Ryan7943]

After cancelling a local flight this morning that was definitely do-able it got me thinking that I need to start testing the waters a little more. I am only a 75 hour private pilot, but I think I'm still being too conservative when it comes to weather. I'm finding that I'm cancelling flights on days where I definitely should be flying. What scared me today was showers slowly creeping in from the west. Sky conditions are high overcast and light winds, but when I checked the radar and saw those showers it made me chicken out. Does anyone have any tips to help me step out of the comfort zone a little bit?

 

[wabower]

Where are you based? Showers in Florida are different than showers in Colorado Springs.

After cancelling a local flight this morning that was definitely do-able it got me thinking that I need to start testing the waters a little more. I am only a 75 hour private pilot, but I think I'm still being too conservative when it comes to weather. I'm finding that I'm cancelling flights on days where I definitely should be flying. What scared me today was showers slowly creeping in from the west. Sky conditions are high overcast and light winds, but when I checked the radar and saw those showers it made me chicken out. Does anyone have any tips to help me step out of the comfort zone a little bit?

 

[Ted]

A no-go doesn't make you a chicken. There are lots of days when one shouldn't be flying. As a 75-hour private pilot without an instrument rating, there are going to be more of those days than for someone with more experience, more ratings, and more airplane.

For one, spending some time learning about the weather is a good idea. Flying with a CFI who's experienced in taking trips and dealing with weather to help teach you things will be very valuable. The problem with testing the waters now is you don't know what you don't know. Once you get a bit more training and experience, you'll start to have a vague idea of what you don't know, and that will get you more prepared to test the waters and learn.

License to learn - you have much to learn (as do all of us).

 

[Gary F]

It is smart for a low time pilot to be very conservative with weather. Don't feel bad about canceling a flight if you have doubt about the conditions. It would be a wise investment to get an instructor to fly with you when the weather is less than ideal, you might be able to arrange for some IFR training as well. Many pilots take up the study of meteorology as a hobby which can be very useful.

 

[Ted]

I'll add: a lot of people seem to think the point of an instructor is to get you ratings and sign you off for your flight review. The reality is instructors should be for more than that. Your rating doesn't mean you know everything you really should know, it just means you know enough to get started.

I'm one of those instructors who doesn't do much in the way of primary training, and don't really intend to. I have students who have ratings already and want to learn how to make better use of them. I'm not the only one out there.

 

[dmccormack]

Ryan,

Do you know any pilots with more time or experience?


The easy answer is "Hire a CFI," but that can get expensive, plus you are supposed to be learning on your own.

But it really helps to have someone else along who has soem time and you trust to help you learn.

 

[steingar]

The one thing about which a VFR pilot can never be too conservative is the weather.

 

[dmccormack]

The one thing about which a VFR pilot can never be too conservative is the weather.

Gotta disagree.

Light showers on a 10 mile vis day with ceilings in the thousands is still VFR. Sure, everyone has different comfort levels, but if you're only going to fly when it's clear and a million and no wind, I hope you enjoy those three days a year.

 

[Ryan7943]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm currently based at KDXR (Danbury, CT). iFlyTwins could not have said it better: "The problem with testing the waters now is you don't know what you don't know." This is exactly what makes me hesitate about just going for it. I've flown on worse days than today during training and didn't think twice, but I had my CFI with me. Making the decision by yourself is a lot tougher. As far as IFR training I plan to start the instrument rating next year. Right now I'm working on the 50 hours of PIC XC which is a learning experience in itself.

 

[steingar]

Gotta disagree.

Light showers on a 10 mile vis day with ceilings in the thousands is still VFR. Sure, everyone has different comfort levels, but if you're only going to fly when it's clear and a million and no wind, I hope you enjoy those three days a year.

First, if it rings your bell you're better off not going. Second, I've never seen light VFR showers with the ceilings still in the thousands, ever. Not even once. Third, a good sized percentage of aviation fatalities result from VFR pilots not being sufficiently conservative about the wx. Nobody dies in an airplane accident from staying home.

I do think every VFR pilot should take their airplane on a very long trip somewhere. Get out of your comfort zone geographically. Deal with weather issues, terrain, the works. That will teach one more than a hundred local flights around the patch.

 

[Gary F]

Precip this time of year in Connecticut could indicate the possibility of icing. Never take a chance with icing or thunderstorms.

 

[TMetzinger]

The problem with learning by experience is you get the test first, THEN the lesson.

That said, however, if you feel uncomfortable with the decisions you're making, the way to get more comfortable is to experiment in a safe manner. Finding a CFI or someone with more experience to go along with you as you try something is the way to do this.

It sounds to me like you have set "personal minimums" that you think might be too conservative when it comes to weather. I'm assuming that you're thinking of flying in weather that's well within the limits of VFR but may be cruddier than you experienced in your training. I know lots of pilots from the central and western portions of the US that come out to the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast and can't believe we fly around in 3-5 miles visibility - they swear it's "instrument" weather.

So... start small - go up in the pattern on a day where it might be somewhat cloudy and visibility might be less than you're used to. Then try moving out to the practice area in those conditions and coming back. Perhaps go to a nearby airport for a short X/C.

Just be sure you have a plan B - from the pattern, you can land. Be ready to return from the practice area. If you're taking the X/C, instead of a straight line go from airport to airport on the way so you have a close option to land and re-assess.

You can take all these steps solo, or you might want to bring a more experienced pilot along.

I have a rule when flying with another pilot - if either pilot wants to discontinue the flight, the flight gets discontinued. In your case this may not be appropriate since you're trying to stretch your envelope. You'll have to decide where your limit is. You should be a little uncomfortable when you stretch the envelope, but no so much that you're "scared".

Best wishes, and by the way, where are you? Geographic information can lead to better advice.

 

[dmccormack]

First, if it rings your bell you're better off not going. Second, I've never seen light VFR showers with the ceilings still in the thousands, ever. Not even once. Third, a good sized percentage of aviation fatalities result from VFR pilots not being sufficiently conservative about the wx. Nobody dies in an airplane accident from staying home.

I do think every VFR pilot should take their airplane on a very long trip somewhere. Get out of your comfort zone geographically. Deal with weather issues, terrain, the works. That will teach one more than a hundred local flights around the patch.

You need to get out more.

I've flown though light showers many times -- VFR.

Call me crazy, but I'm assuming that if someone learned to fly, it's because he/she wants to fly -- not stay at home until planets and plate shift are in alignment.

Looking for excuses not to isn't exactly beneficial, either.

I'd argue that overly careful pilots can be as dangerous as more risk-welcoming types since they never develop judgement, skills, and knowledge required to become and maintain proficiency.

 

[Gary F]

You need to get out more.

I've flown though light showers many times -- VFR.

Call me crazy, but I'm assuming that if someone learned to fly, it's because he/she wants to fly -- not stay at home until planets and plate shift are in alignment.

Looking for excuses not to isn't exactly beneficial, either.

I'd argue that overly careful pilots can be as dangerous as more risk-welcoming types since they never develop judgement, skills, and knowledge required to become and maintain proficiency.

This guy only has 75 hours. He can adjust his personal minimums gradually. I agree with the advice from TMetzinger above.

 

[EdFred]

First, if it rings your bell you're better off not going. Second, I've never seen light VFR showers with the ceilings still in the thousands, ever. Not even once. Third, a good sized percentage of aviation fatalities result from VFR pilots not being sufficiently conservative about the wx. Nobody dies in an airplane accident from staying home.

I do think every VFR pilot should take their airplane on a very long trip somewhere. Get out of your comfort zone geographically. Deal with weather issues, terrain, the works. That will teach one more than a hundred local flights around the patch.

Just last Thursday I saw light showers over Ohio and Indiana with ceilings above 9,000. How do I know they were above 9k? Cause I was at 10.5 over CVG, and in the clear.

 

[zaitcev]

Here's what other pilot with 76 hours thinks.

My phylosophy is that weather is too general a word, but there is specific kind of weather. I would not fly knowingly into icing, or actually any kind of cloud, even hazy stratus with low turbulence.

I just made my first flight as a private pilot yesterday. There were some airfields on the other side of local mountain range that I never had an opportunity to fly to when I was a student. Also, winds were blowing 21 gust 31, and I again I never could catch a good wind when training.

So, I observed taxiing control deflections carefuly, took off and flew through the nearest pass on the other side. Got shaken up a little by wind vortices sheared from downwind side of mountains, then made 4 approaches into litle airports. All 4 ended in go-arounds, because I'm just not experienced enough to handle crosswinds like yesterday's. At the first go-around, I forgot to release the rudder pressure after I applied full power and got into a situation when a pitch up killed airspeed quickly, pitch down made airplane sink, and I already departed the runway's side. Honestly, I did come close to pranging the airplane. However, I figured out what was wrong, because the ground effect gave me time to think. Once I returned to coordinated flight, airplane accelerated and easily lifted up. Then I made 3 more of these in order to make sure I understand what is going on, and how to dip the wing more while the speed decays in the flare. If I did not have to get back to work, I would practice a lot more. Never waste a good wind is my rule here.

So, basically, some risks are absolutely not worth taking. For example, if I see a nice dust devil raising 1200 ft from surface, I'm not going to fly through it. Or if I see a thundersorm, I don't consider it an opportunity to have airplane washed. But a little rain or a little cloud layer is no problem. Wind is a problem though, always get destination forecast and consider your limits, is what I do.

Oh, and one specific thing I avoid strictly is VFR-on-top. This is because we fly over mountains here and an engine-out descent through clouds would be fatal for sure. If I am trapped in the valley by cloud banks closing passes, I just resign to it.

-- Pete

 

[Ryan7943]

So... start small - go up in the pattern on a day where it might be somewhat cloudy and visibility might be less than you're used to. Then try moving out to the practice area in those conditions and coming back. Perhaps go to a nearby airport for a short X/C.

Just be sure you have a plan B - from the pattern, you can land. Be ready to return from the practice area. If you're taking the X/C, instead of a straight line go from airport to airport on the way so you have a close option to land and re-assess.

You can take all these steps solo, or you might want to bring a more experienced pilot along.

Thanks for the advice, I really like this idea. I feel like I should tackle the pattern and practice area solo, but an XC in not-so-good conditions with a CFI would be a great experience.

 

[TMetzinger]

I had rain on my car windshield on Sunday with ceilings at 4000.

I agree with Steingar that nobody gets killed staying on the ground... but I think the topic is how to safely expand the envelope a bit. I also agree with Dan that the Compleat Aviator has a wide range of experience and says "no" to risk based on familiarity with the risk and not because he can't judge it well.

So, to the OP - you are making the right decisions, both in your choice not to fly when you weren't comfortable, and in realizing that perhaps you could become comfortable with those conditions.

 

[Bob Noel]

You need to get out more.

I've flown though light showers many times -- VFR.

Call me crazy, but I'm assuming that if someone learned to fly, it's because he/she wants to fly -- not stay at home until planets and plate shift are in alignment.

Looking for excuses not to isn't exactly beneficial, either.

I'd argue that overly careful pilots can be as dangerous as more risk-welcoming types since they never develop judgement, skills, and knowledge required to become and maintain proficiency.

I'm confused. An "overly careful" pilot is dangerous because he or she flies only when his/her conservative personal minimums are met? How could that be dangerous?

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm confused. An "overly careful" pilot is dangerous because he or she flies only when his/her conservative personal minimums are met? How could that be dangerous?

Because eventually they end up facing a pressure that makes them go fly in spite of their "better judgement", and they don't have the experience to discriminate between:

"I need to be sharp, but I can complete this safely"
and
"There's no way I should be in the air right now"

There are folks who've never experienced even moderate turbulence, and they are sure the airplane will come apart the moment their head hits the overhead. Or who think that five miles vis is a death trap.

OR, they launch into good forecast weather, it turns bad (but not IFR), and their inexperience causes them to panic and make bad decisions.

A good long VFR X/C (say 300+ NM on a day where there are fronts to pass) will teach a LOT about weather.

 

[dmccormack]

Because eventually they end up facing a pressure that makes them go fly in spite of their "better judgement", and they don't have the experience to discriminate between:

"I need to be sharp, but I can complete this safely"
and
"There's no way I should be in the air right now"

There are folks who've never experienced even moderate turbulence, and they are sure the airplane will come apart the moment their head hits the overhead. Or who think that five miles vis is a death trap.

OR, they launch into good forecast weather, it turns bad (but not IFR), and their inexperience causes them to panic and make bad decisions.

A good long VFR X/C (say 300+ NM on a day where there are fronts to pass) will teach a LOT about weather.

What Tim said.

 

[dmccormack]

Look, if we say "Safety First!" we're lying.

We'd be safely ensconced on large, air-bag protected couches if "Safety" was our priority.

Instead, we should say, "I will doo activity X that I really like/ want/ need as safely as practical given my knowledge of what is safe and what is risky."

But that doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.

 

[Ted]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm currently based at KDXR (Danbury, CT). iFlyTwins could not have said it better: "The problem with testing the waters now is you don't know what you don't know." This is exactly what makes me hesitate about just going for it. I've flown on worse days than today during training and didn't think twice, but I had my CFI with me. Making the decision by yourself is a lot tougher. As far as IFR training I plan to start the instrument rating next year. Right now I'm working on the 50 hours of PIC XC which is a learning experience in itself.

Ryan,

I'm not too far from you (KIPT - Williamsport, PA). If you want to go flying, shoot me an eMail.

 

[fgcason]

I'm confused. An "overly careful" pilot is dangerous because he or she flies only when his/her conservative personal minimums are met? How could that be dangerous?

Frog in the pot on the stove.

The bunch of times I've been caught out went like this: Very flyable, woopie, go. Ok little more clouds, no biggie in the least, keep going. Some visibility issues, no big deal, done a lot worse than this before. Knew all this was coming and going as planned, continue. Reality check, well within my skill and experience level, good, continue. Four hours from scattered to 70% cover, typical around here this time of year. Go around the rain, still plenty of room to go around, light enough to go through. 6-7 mile visibility, complete non event. Windy, ho hum, BTDT, continue. Serious reality check again, conditions entertaining, all ok, getting up there though, good to go, continue. Under another raining cloud, noisy, ho hum. A bit bouncy, no big deal. More rain on the windscreen. 4 miles inside the rain, 5 mile visibility outside, 90% cover more rain. Reality che, wait a minute, WTF am I doing up here? No one or few things combined are bad but the overall effect, just land this canvas covered coffin somewhere right now you stupid idget before running into something hard..like the Earth.


My method for getting more experience by myself for progressively worse conditions isn't to jump into muck for a 400 mile XC across unknown territory. It's to gradually progress into worse conditions in a controlled manner: Pick a day where it's what you're minimally comfortable with and play around locally for a few hours. If the weather is dynamic and not static, so much the better. Maybe go on a short 100 mile XC if it's good enough. If it gets a little worse, go back closer to the airport. Get back into the pattern and just do bounce and go's if necessary. Don't leave the pattern in the first place if necessary. Keep flying as long as you're not in over your head. Always do a reality check on yourself and the conditions every few minutes. After a while the weather can be pretty seriously crap and you can still run around the pattern safely. Then as you get more experience and comfort with that, you can progress out of the pattern again into those conditions.
If you do get trapped out somewhere, land the airplane, find the nearest airport and just land and sit it out. Don't continue, land even if your home airport is 10 miles away. Just get out of the weather right then. Play in the pattern where you're stuck if possible.

 

[skylanerg]

Ryan, you're making all the correct decisions based on your personal minimums checklist. As others have said, it will take experience to expand your minimums.

May I recommend joining http://www.meetup.com/NEPilotsGroup/ to help you gain local x/c experience. I am sure there are pilots available locally, including DXR, that will help with gaining experience. We share rides all the time - your plane or theirs. It'a a great group of friendly people. Start by joining up and searching for members locally then send them a PM. Breakfast this Saturday at Sky Acres as an example.

 

[Gary F]

To paraphrase Dirty Harry: A pilot has got to know his or her limitations.

A relevant quote by Nietzche: That that which does not kill us makes us stronger.

Of course the goal is not to kill yourself or bend an airplane.

 

[Ryan7943]

Ryan, you're making all the correct decisions based on your personal minimums checklist. As others have said, it will take experience to expand your minimums.

May I recommend joining http://www.meetup.com/NEPilotsGroup/ to help you gain local x/c experience. I am sure there are pilots available locally, including DXR, that will help with gaining experience. We share rides all the time - your plane or theirs. It'a a great group of friendly people. Start by joining up and searching for members locally then send them a PM. Breakfast this Saturday at Sky Acres as an example.

Thank you for the link! I'd love to get to know some pilots in the area. I'm a college student in Danbury so I'm literally 10 minutes from DXR and it would be awesome to meet some more aviation enthusiasts.

 

[Everskyward]

Thank you for the link! I'd love to get to know some pilots in the area. I'm a college student in Danbury so I'm literally 10 minutes from DXR and it would be awesome to meet some more aviation enthusiasts.

I think that would be great for you. I learned how to fly at a college flying club. Almost everyone there, including me at the time, was just doing it for fun, not as a career option. I enjoyed splitting an airplane with people who were about the same level of experience then going out to explore different airports. Two people can give each other confidence, sometimes maybe too much, but we survived.

 

[Ted]

A relevant quote by Nietzche: That that which does not kill us makes us stronger.

Of course the goal is not to kill yourself or bend an airplane.

That's the issue with an airplane. In a car, I can go find an icy parking lot and go play with poor traction in my car or truck to get better at it without hurting anyone or anything. With an airplane, I need an airport that I can get to. In the northeast, there are enough airports that this is usually pretty doable, especially with the advent of GPS. But it's not always an option.

If you join NEPG, just don't fly with Clark Burgard...

Actually, Clark's got a lot of hours as a VFR pilot. Not a bad guy, either. The group is a lot of fun and I'd agree it would be a great way to get some good experience while having fun.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

Head first, feet second, safety third. That's how you depart your comfort zone.

As pilots we can only mitigate risk.

If you want to eliminate it, don't bother getting out of bed in the morning & pray there isn't an earthquake.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

FWIW

A couple thousand and a few miles ain't that bad...

Rain showers - look into them before you get there - if you can see a good distance in, fine. Otherwise, go around. Rain does a good job of cleaning bugs off the leading edge.

Forget the line you drew on your chart - chances are you won't stay on it. Keep track of where you are right now - every time you cross a road, railroad, pass a town, whatever, write the time on your chart - every 5 minutes or so is good. Leave the E6B in the flight bag just eyeball time / distance. Your fingers are good enough for dividers at this time scale. Consider following a road or railroad or... the navigation workload is a lot lower and you reduce the chances you will get lost and / or bust some airspace.

Always know what direction the nearest airport is and how far it is. Is there a good way to find it? (Follow the next road to the north, turn right at the town, two miles east - if I get to the divided highway I've gone too far.)

Don't expect to make the stops you planned. If things are deteriorating you end up where you end up.

Listen to AWOS/ASOS broadcasts ahead and around - if it sounds bad up ahead, land or go a different direction.

Slow down. You have twice as much time to think and avoid at 60 compared to 120. Reducing your workload is a good thing.

Towers are hard to spot. Give them room. More if visibility is poor. Know where you are at. Again, it's easier if you are following a highway than it is if you are crossing farm country.

Thunderstorms and Ice are bad. Don't go there.

Compare what you see to what was forecast. Forecasts are always wrong. If the weather is better than the forecast, good. If it's getting worse - watch out. If it's rapidly getting worst than the forecast, land at the nearest airport.

Go around, go under, go back or land where you are. Don't go over unless you have the skills and equipment. (If you do, why are you scud running and not going IFR?)

Having another competent individual in the right seat to navigate and run radios is a good thing. A real good thing if stuff starts to go bad.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Look, if we say "Safety First!" we're lying.

We'd be safely ensconced on large, air-bag protected couches if "Safety" was our priority.

Instead, we should say, "I will doo activity X that I really like/ want/ need as safely as practical given my knowledge of what is safe and what is risky."

But that doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.

Sounds like you need an ORM (Organization Risk Management) pocket card like the Naval Safety Center gave us - it has a handy matrix that helps me make sure I make safe decisions.....if I could just remember where I put it....

 

[Fearless Tower]

I've never seen light VFR showers with the ceilings still in the thousands, ever. Not even once.

You should have been along for my PPL checkride - you'd have seen it then.

 

[rottydaddy]

You should have been along for my PPL checkride - you'd have seen it then.

I hear that- I was lucky enough to encounter a little rain and snow in otherwise good VMC during my training... and the closest I've ever come to really running afoul of stuff I shouldn't have been out in was during my first solo XC.

To the OP, I'd also recommend doing some pattern or known practice area work in such conditions, or on days when the wind is tricky... that might help break through the barrier that your good common sense has built up for you. The other stuff mentioned above is good advice- slow down if you end up lower and in poor visibility, forget your planned destination if it doesn't look good in that direction, etc.

In the end, based on my own experience, for better or worse, I think most pilots don't really get to expand their comfort zone by design... it just happens. It usually works out, though, with good training and good (decision-making) habits.

The idea is not to say "what the hell, I'm gonna go for it" so much as to consider beforehand "what are my options?". Presented with the same risks, the latter philosophy will serve you better, especially if you have been aloft long enough and flown far enough to find very different conditions than when you took off.

If the thought of being foolish about wind or weather scares you, that is good. But the more you consider any wind or weather-related decision, the less foolish it will be. Always have an out, and never let the "mission" force your decisions, and you should expand your comfort zone safely.

I don't have a lot of time logged, but I am at a point where there's no anxiety or drama about going to "have a look" if the go/no go decision isn't obvious before departure. But I also I don't get bent out of shape if I have to abort.

It helps to have minimal expectations when it comes to traveling by air. I don't care what you fly or what you know about flying, if your plans require an iron-clad guarantee that you can get where you want to go, on schedule, despite all odds, you are asking for trouble... and you will find it eventually.

 

[Ryan7943]

Whats kind of funny is that wind doesn't phase me. I got a lot of good crosswind practice during training so I have no issues with that. Where I need to get more comfortable is primarily with haze/lower visibility and cloud cover.

 

[Ted]

Whats kind of funny is that wind doesn't phase me. I got a lot of good crosswind practice during training so I have no issues with that. Where I need to get more comfortable is primarily with haze/lower visibility and cloud cover.

What you have as an advantage in CT is that there are tons of airports, and for a lot of directions you can pick it's relatively flat.

About a year ago, I did a commercial XC with a student from New Hampshire down to BDR and back. It was a perfect day for it - about 2000-2500 OVC with rain showers on and off.

It's a good area to gently test the waters. But at 75 hours, I wouldn't be testing them that much.

 

[fgcason]

Where I need to get more comfortable is primarily with haze/lower visibility and cloud cover.

2000 OVC and 5-7mi. Stay in the pattern until it's comfortable. Then venture out of the pattern at 1000 AGL for a bit. Then reel yourself back in. Repeat over time and slowly reduce the ceiling and visibility.
If it's just haze and no clouds, pick a 7 mile visibility day and go at 2000 AGL then climb to 4000 AGL. Repeat on a 5 mile visibility day.

Watch the weather every day even when you're not flying. Learn what stable unchanging vs changing conditions really mean. Fly on the stable non changing days until you get comfortable and knowing what is happening. IMHO, half the uncomfort level is based on not knowing what the weather is going to do to you next.

Don't get in a hurry, let the comfort and experience come on it's own time. It won't happen overnight. If you get creeped out or borderline in over your head, land now, not 20 minutes from now. Just keep going reality checks on yourself so nothing catches you by surprise and always chicken out early.

 

[dmccormack]

Lots of great advice on this thread -- I'll echo what's been said about learning more about weather -- you can never know enough but informed decisions can be based on knowledge, not mere emotion.

 

[Steve]

I'm suprised with all the heavy weight expertise on the board no one's mentioned

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/media/ga_weather_decision_making.pdf

or any of the other reference material available, for free, on the FAA website related to weather for aviators.

 

[PittsDriver]

I use the model of a mental circuit breaker. If I've been thinking about it for more than about 30 minutes then the breaker pops and the airplane stays on the ground or we go to plan B. It's pretty much worked for me since I was a VFR only noob to having well over a thousand hours in the system. Sure there are days when I could have gotten away with going anyway but if I have to be concerned about my outs or how to do it for longer than 30 minutes, it's a no-go. It's elegant and works for most situations no matter what your skill level is.

Probably somebody really smart somewhere once said if you stare at a problem long enough you can rationalize any solution.