Starting the round engine

gkainz

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
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Arvada, CO
Display Name

Display name:
Greg Kainz
from an old Navy mechanic friend of mine - thanks, Sr. Chief.

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I’ve started piston pounders including the Stearman and turbojets, even recipicating engine private planes, turboprops and turbofans. I must say the R3350 on a P2V was the most fun. Love hearing the exhaust crackle on an R2600. Sounded like a Top Fueler.

This aviation types will like this.

Jay

Navy AD-6:
http://www.wingsovergillespie.org/aircraft/aircraftbios/ad-6.htm

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For real Pilots……..

Radial Starting

Starting, take off and flying with the wonderful Radial powered aircraft (an AD-6)

Radial Starting (3350 engine on an AD-6)

Be sure you drain both the sumps. (You can fill your Zippo lighter while you do this)

Look out the left side of the oily cockpit canopy and notice a very nervous person holding a huge fire bottle. Nod to this person.

1. Crack throttle about one-quarter of an inch.

2. Battery on

3. Mags on

4. Fuel boost on

5. Hit starter button (The four bladed 13’ 6’ prop will start a slow turn)

6. Begin to bounce your finger on top of the primer button.

a. This act requires finesse and style. It is much like a ballet performance. The engine must be seduced and caressed into starting.

7. Act one will begin: Belching, banging, rattling, backfiring, spluttering, flame and black smoke from the exhaust shooting out about three feet. (Fire bottle person is very pale and has the nozzle at the ready position)

8. When the engine begins to “catch” on the primer. Move the mixture to full rich. The flames from the exhaust will stop and white smoke will come out. (Fire bottle guy relaxes a bit) You will hear a wonderful throaty roar that is like music to the ears.

a. Enjoy the macho smell of engine oil, hydraulic fluid and pilot sweat.

9. Immediately check the oil pressure and hydraulic gages.

10. The entire aircraft is now shaking and shuttering from the torque of the engine and RPM of prop.

a. The engine is an 18 cylinder R-3350 that develops 2,700 HP.

11. Close cowl flaps to warm up the engine for taxi.

12. Once you glance around at about 300 levers, gauges and gadgets, call the tower to taxi to the duty runway.

Take off in the AD-6

1. Check both magnetos

2. Exercise the prop pitch

3. Cowl flaps open.

4. Check oil temp and pressure.

5. Crank 1.5 degrees right rudder trim to help your right leg with the torque on takeoff.

6. Tell the tower you are ready for the duty runway.

7. Line the bird up and lock the tail wheel for sure.

8. Add power slowly because the plane (with the torque of the monster prop and engine power definitely wants to go left).

9. NEVER add full power suddenly! There is not enough rudder in the entire world to hold it straight.

10.Add more power and shove in right rudder till your leg begins to tremble.

11.Expect banging, belching and an occasional manly fart as you roar down the runway at full power.

12.Lift the tail and when it “feels right” and pull back gently on the stick to get off the ground.

13.Gear up

14.Adjust the throttle for climb setting

15.Ease the prop back to climb RPM

16.Close cowl flaps and keep an eye on the cylinder head temp.

17.Adjust the power as needed as you climb higher or turn on the super charger.

Flying with the round engine.

1. Once your reach altitude which isn’t very high (about 8000 feet) you reduce the throttle and prop to cruise settings.

2. The next fun thing is to pull back the mixture control until the engine just about quits. Then ease it forward a bit and this is best mixture.

3. While cruising the engine sounds like it might blow or quit at any time. This keeps you occupied scanning engine gauges for the least hint of trouble.

4. Moving various levers around to coax a more consistent sound from the engine concentrates the mind wonderfully.

5. At night or over water a radial engine makes noises you have never heard before.

6. Looking out of the front of the cockpit the clouds are beautiful because they are slightly blurred from the oil on the cockpit canopy.

7. Seeing lightening the clouds ahead increases the pucker factor by about 10.

a. You can’t fly high enough to get over them and if you try and get under the clouds----you will die in turbulence.

b. You tie down everything in the cockpit that isn’t already secured, get a good grip on the stick, turn on the deicers, tighten and lock your shoulder straps and hang on.

c. You then have a ride to exceed any “terror” ride in any amusement park ever built. You discover the plane can actually fly sidewise while inverted.

8. Once through the weather, you call ATC and in a calm deep voice advise them that there is slight turbulence on your route.

9. You then scan you aircraft to see if all the major parts are still attached. This includes any popped rivets.

10. Do the controls still work? Are the gauges and levers still in proper limits?

11. These being done you fumble for the relief tube, because you desperately need it. (Be careful with your lower flight suit zipper)


The jet engine and aircraft

Start a jet

1. Fuel boost on.

2. Hit the start button

3. When the TPT starts to move ease the throttle forward.

4. The fire bottle person is standing at the back of the plane and has no idea what is going on.

5. The engine lights off---and---

6. That’s about it.
Take off in the jet

1. Lower full flaps

2. Tell the tower you are ready for takeoff.

3. Roll on to the duty runway while adding 100% power.

4. Tricycle gear---no tail to drag---no torque to contend with.

5. At some exact airspeed you lift off the runway.

6. Gear up

7. Milk up the flaps and fly.

8. Leave the power at 100%


Flying the jet

1. Climb at 100%

2. Cruise at 100%

3. It is silent in the plane.

4. You can’t see clouds because you are so far above them.

5. You look down and see lighting in some clouds below and pity some poor fool that may have to fly through that mess.

6. The jet plane is air conditioned!! Round engines are definitely not. If you fly in tropical areas, this cannot be stressed enough.

7. There is not much to do in a jet, so you eat your flight lunch at your leisure.

8. Few gauges to look at and no levers to adjust. This leaves you doodling on your knee board.

9. Some call girl friends on their cell phones: “Guess where I am etc”

Some observed differences in round engines and jets

1. To be a real pilot you have to fly a tail dragger for an absolute minimum of 500 hours.

2. Large round engines smell of gasoline (115/145), rich oil, hydraulic fluid, man sweat and are not air-conditioned.

3. Engine failure to the jet pilot means something is wrong with his air conditioner.

4. When you take off in a jet there is no noise in the cockpit. (This does not create a macho feeling of doing something manly)

5. Landing a jet just requires a certain airspeed and altitude---at which you cut the power and drop like a rock to the runway. Landing a round engine tail dragger requires finesse, prayer, body English, pumping of rudder pedals and a lot of nerve.

6. After landing, a jet just goes straight down the runway.

7. A radial tail dragger is like a wild mustang---it might decide to go anywhere. Gusting winds help this behavior a lot.

8. You cannot fill your Zippo lighter with jet fuel.

9. Starting a jet is like turning on a light switch---a little click and it is on.

10. Starting a round engine is an artistic endeavor requiring prayer (holy curse words) and sometimes meditation.

11. Jet engines don’t break, spill oil or catch on fire very often which leads to boredom and complacency.

12. The round engine may blow an oil seal ring, burst into flame, splutter for no apparent reason or just quit. This results in heightened pilot awareness at all times.

13. Jets smell like a kerosene lantern at a scout camp out.

14. Round engines smell like God intended engines to smell and the tail dragger is the way God intended for man to fly

Pass this on to real pilots.
 
My fave:

At night or over water a radial engine makes noises you have never heard before
 
Greg, thanks what a great read, I stole it and shared it on the Purpleboard.
 
One of the other recipients on the original email replied back with the following .wav files, purportedly from the P2V Neptune ...
 

Attachments

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just found these


This guy knew how to start a 3350, the guy who wrote the copy in the first post didn't.

several big things that were simple OWTs in the first post.
 
Awe Chief, never let facts get in the way of a good sea story ... however, the original post doesn't qualify as a fairy tale or a sea story, as it does not start out with

"Once upon a time..."

or

"Now this is no s$%*..."
 
Awe Chief, never let facts get in the way of a good sea story ... however, the original post doesn't qualify as a fairy tale or a sea story, as it does not start out with

"Once upon a time..."

or

"Now this is no s$%*..."

Lets start with siring a chief.... sheeh

That'll get your liberty card misplaced.
 
With all the crap I have piled up for me to do at home this weekend, that might not be a bad thing ... :)

btw, I would NEVER "sir" a chief, chief! :)
 
This guy knew how to start a 3350, the guy who wrote the copy in the first post didn't.

several big things that were simple OWTs in the first post.

I noticed that your guy motored the engine (mags off) for a few revolutions before starting. I assume this is to clear liquid from the cylinders and prevent hyrdo lock. Is this an effective technique? I've had some folks insist that you can bend a rod with just the starter but that seems unlikely to me and I'm wondering if pulling through by hand is really required on every start with a big radial.
 
I assume this is to clear liquid from the cylinders and prevent hyrdo lock. Is this an effective technique?

I do it every time. And that is the theory. However, if you have pulled the engine through, that wouldn't be totally necessary. However again, there are some engines where that isn't feasible.

OWT? Dunno, but as far as I am concerned the practice does not hurt anything.

I've had some folks insist that you can bend a rod with just the starter but that seems unlikely to me

Theoretically, it isn't possible to bend a rod with the starter, but anything is possible, I suppose.

and I'm wondering if pulling through by hand is really required on every start with a big radial.

Dunno what you define as "big", but if mine has been sitting for no more than a half hour or so, I won't bother. But I will let the starter take it through 4 blades before I hit the mags.
 
I noticed that your guy motored the engine (mags off) for a few revolutions before starting. I assume this is to clear liquid from the cylinders and prevent hyrdo lock. Is this an effective technique? I've had some folks insist that you can bend a rod with just the starter but that seems unlikely to me and I'm wondering if pulling through by hand is really required on every start with a big radial.

There many pilots with a lot more round engine experience than I but here is what I was taught with a bit of my opinon mixed in.

We left the Mags off because there was no impulse coupling, So you wanted the engine to have a bit of rotational momentum before engaging the ignition system to prevent the engine from turning backwards when the cylinder ignited slightly before TDC. We did have an Ignition retarding lever, but we never used it.

You are probably right that in most cases it would be unlikely to bend a rod with an electric starter. However if you combined the electric starter with a cylinder firing you might get enough HP to bend one. While I agree that pulling the prop though to prevent hydro lock is a good Idea, I wonder if this procedure is primarily a leftover from the inertial starters.

Brian
 
I noticed that your guy motored the engine (mags off) for a few revolutions before starting. I assume this is to clear liquid from the cylinders and prevent hyrdo lock. Is this an effective technique? I've had some folks insist that you can bend a rod with just the starter but that seems unlikely to me and I'm wondering if pulling through by hand is really required on every start with a big radial.

no, the 3350 is a geared engine, he counted 12 blades because that is one full rotation of the crankshaft, he did it because he didn't want a top cylinder firing on a bottom cylinder full of oil. serious damage will occur when that happens,

If during the 12 blades the engine hits a hydraulic loc the starter clutch just slips and does no damage.
 
There many pilots with a lot more round engine experience than I

I don't know how many you have but I'm just a beginner at 43,000 behind the 3350, and probably 10+ behind the others. /B]

but here is what I was taught with a bit of my opinion mixed in.

We left the Mags off because there was no impulse coupling, So you wanted the engine to have a bit of rotational momentum before engaging the ignition system to prevent the engine from turning backwards when the cylinder ignited slightly before TDC. We did have an Ignition retarding lever, but we never used it.

You are probably right that in most cases it would be unlikely to bend a rod with an electric starter. However if you combined the electric starter with a cylinder firing you might get enough HP to bend one. While I agree that pulling the prop though to prevent hydro lock is a good Idea, I wonder if this procedure is primarily a leftover from the inertial starters.

Brian


the 3350 has 3 different ignitions systems that could be installed in different dash numbers, but all had a retard lever to start, and tweek peak performance in flight.

the prop is driven on a prop shaft to the gear reduction on the nose of the case. It dose not exert any real torque to the crank.
 
Hmmmmm.......time to get the hip waders out again. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

You may think so, but the WV 1&2 the flight crews had way more than I did. I was just getting started when the Connies went to the desert.

The jet jocks today go too fast to get the hours we did.
 
You may think so, but the WV 1&2 the flight crews had way more than I did. I was just getting started when the Connies went to the desert.

The jet jocks today go too fast to get the hours we did.

We've had this discussion before. And I can do simple math. Your numbers simply don't add up.

We use to joke about people putting their hours in the "Airplane Bank" and drawing interest. You must have been getting 20% on yours. :rolleyes:
 
We've had this discussion before. And I can do simple math. Your numbers simply don't add up.

We use to joke about people putting their hours in the "Airplane Bank" and drawing interest. You must have been getting 20% on yours. :rolleyes:

Yeah WE been here before, to bad a little mind can't get around the the numbers.

I probably had more flight hours before I went into the NAVY that you'll ever have.
 
Tom, how did they preheat the big wartime radials? Or did they?

Did you ever feather one or more in flight on your Connies, with the intention of restarting? Once those got cold soaked, how did you start them again? I assume that you could get considerable torque by unfeathering the engine but still the oil must have been like concrete...

-Skip
 
Tom, how did they preheat the big wartime radials? Or did they?

I only preheated the Connie once at Andrews AFB we had engine covers and a big preheater with ducting from the heater to the engine, When we knew we were flying the aircraft was kept in the hangar over night in bad weather. the rest of my experiance is in South east Asia and Pt. Mugu, no need there.

Did you ever feather one or more in flight on your Connies, with the intention of restarting? Once those got cold soaked, how did you start them again? I assume that you could get considerable torque by unfeathering the engine but still the oil must have been like concrete...

-Skip

With our fixed load in our connies we could not maintain altitude with 2 out, Thank God I never had to try, but I've had 13 engine outs 1 at a time, with no other problems. most were shut down as precaution to a chips light.
 
Once those got cold soaked, how did you start them again? -Skip

as far as cold soaking the engine during flight and getting a restart, you start unfeathering the prop with the feathering pump until the engine rotates, turn on the mags and bring the mixture up to rich. she will light up OK. The check list has more items but basically that the short of it.
 
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