Starting new Brokerage Business, Looking for insight.

[jimd118]

Hi Guys,
I am in the process of starting up a new Aircraft Brokerage Business in North Carolina and would love to hear any insight, opinions, tips, or good as well as bad personal experiences with brokers you've had. I am 27 so fairly young for this side of the industry but very motivated and have worked in aviation and marketing for the past 10 years. I am a commercially rated pilot and currently have an aerial photography business as well as a photography business focusing on marketing for the outdoor industry. I have never worked as a broker before other than selling a few planes for friends and employers in the past, but feel my experience in both industries will help a lot and my focus is going to be on the marketing side over the legal side.

I am setting up an office currently at a decent sized regional airport in NC, nice office with lobby for my business with a nice sized ramp as well as additional offices for me to expand into if needed down the road. Attached to my office is a very large corporate hanger, to keep my start up price low I will just be having my clients rent space in it from the airport should they need to leave the plane with me. My goal is to work with a mix of everything from quality piston aircraft up to mid size corporate. As I said the focus of my work will be on marketing and handling all initial relations with potential buyers. My plan is upon completion of price negotiations Buyer and Seller will then come together and take care of title transfer etc., I will not take possession of title or offer any legal advice on the transfer of property. If needed I can get them in touch with Escrow and title services but I will not be offering this in house.

Anyways I would love to hear anyones personal experiences and what you would look for in a broker in the future. I am passionate about this and I want to do it right. Appreciate the help!

 

[jimd118]

Also I am curious as anyones experience with acquisitions as well. I have not decided on a pricing structure for this service and not having much luck finding info on the industry normal. I was fixed prices for this side of the business as I want my clients knowing I am actually motivated to get them the best pricing rather than if I was charging a percentage as with the brokerage side.

 

[AggieMike88]

If you want to go learn from a really good aviation broker located close to Charlotte, seek out Guy Maher in Statesville. Guy has built up a good reputation amongst the Cessna Cardinal crowd. I've had a few conversations with him and folks that know him. They way he conducts business sets a good example for others in his industry.

If you want to learn about who not to be, there was this guy who had a brokerage in Arizona...

 

[N747JB]

I would make sure, especially starting out that you make sure deals get done. I know that sounds silly, but many deals go south because a broker holds to his guns on his commission, I am not saying to work for free, but don't let a few $100's get in the way of putting a deal together. Boat brokers are famous for either getting all their commission, or sinking the deal.

 

[wabower]

I don't broker because I don't like the sell side, and concentrate solely on representing buyers. It has proven to be a great business except for 2000-2001 and 2008-2011 when greeter jobs at Walmart would have been better.

Fortunately I had been picking up cans and bottles along the highway for some years as a back-up and was well-prepared for both down-turns.

Also I am curious as anyones experience with acquisitions as well. I have not decided on a pricing structure for this service and not having much luck finding info on the industry normal. I was fixed prices for this side of the business as I want my clients knowing I am actually motivated to get them the best pricing rather than if I was charging a percentage as with the brokerage side.

 

[Art VanDelay]

For stuff smaller than say a King Air I really don't see why people think they need a broker ?
With the tools available on the internet I think a broker for small GA is about as necessary as a travel agent.

 

[SCCutler]

For stuff smaller than say a King Air I really don't see why people think they need a broker ?
With the tools available on the internet I think a broker for small GA is about as necessary as a travel agent.

Man, I could not disagree more; I have seen so many great deals arranged by brokers, good deal for both sides of the transaction.

Educated sellers *and* buyers do better deals.

---

OP: Be sure that you know more about the aircraft you are handling (seeking or selling) than anyone from whom you are buying, or to whom you are selling. Be honest. Do not promise unreasonable things. Lots and lots and lots of very detailed pictures. Disclose all flaws up front. Never advertise without a price (the word, "Call" in an ad means, to me, "I don't want you to know the ridiculous price I put on this piece of doo").

 

[wabower]

Spike, don't be too harsh on the "Call for price" listings by brokers. A number of legitimate reasons exist for such ads, many that clearly work in the buyer's favor.

Among them are "I didn't want to post the asking price because nobody would call. The seller is starting to realize that his asking price is a figment, and may be open to offers at a reasonable price if you're inclined to make one."

And even if the price is off the charts, you will gain another data point for your comps spreadsheet and perhaps much more at the expense of 5 minutes of your time. It's a frog-kissing business in which a certain amount of wartiness is inherent and unavoidable in search of the prince/princess you want to take home to mom.

Man, I could not disagree more; I have seen so many great deals arranged by brokers, good deal for both sides of the transaction.

Educated sellers *and* buyers do better deals.

---

OP: Be sure that you know more about the aircraft you are handling (seeking or selling) than anyone from whom you are buying, or to whom you are selling. Be honest. Do not promise unreasonable things. Lots and lots and lots of very detailed pictures. Disclose all flaws up front. Never advertise without a price (the word, "Call" in an ad means, to me, "I don't want you to know the ridiculous price I put on this piece of doo").

 

[vintage cessna]

Secrete broker tip number 1. If the airplane for sale has been tied down outside for the past 30 years, pull it in front of a hangar for ad pictures.

 

[frfly172]

The brokers job is to get the deal done.no one wants to pay asking price,and no owner wants to give his airplane away.just a thought.

 

[jimd118]

If you want to go learn from a really good aviation broker located close to Charlotte, seek out Guy Maher in Statesville. Guy has built up a good reputation amongst the Cessna Cardinal crowd. I've had a few conversations with him and folks that know him. They way he conducts business sets a good example for others in his industry.

If you want to learn about who not to be, there was this guy who had a brokerage in Arizona...

Thanks, I will look him up. Always open to any inspiration I can get. Ive learned through the years with my other businesses theres no better advertising than simply doing a great job for your clients. Word gets around fast and because of it ive have dont almost no advertising with my other work.

 

[jimd118]

I would make sure, especially starting out that you make sure deals get done. I know that sounds silly, but many deals go south because a broker holds to his guns on his commission, I am not saying to work for free, but don't let a few $100's get in the way of putting a deal together. Boat brokers are famous for either getting all their commission, or sinking the deal.

I can agree with this. Starting out is going to be tough without a doubt as well having no aircraft represented, I am thinking of offering my first few clients half rate in return for some advertising expenses up front just to help get some aircraft going and to develop some references.

 

[wabower]

Word gets around fast and because of it ive have dont almost no advertising with my other work.

Guessing that ghost writing and/or composition aren't among them?:wink2:

 

[jimd118]

Secrete broker tip number 1. If the airplane for sale has been tied down outside for the past 30 years, pull it in front of a hangar for ad pictures.

Hahaaa. I plan on staying away from these aircraft. Ive got a high min fee set as I dont really want to deal with old raggidy birds and getting that reputation. Ive met some shady dealers through the years that deal these unairworthy hanger queens. Throw a $1000 paint job on it, mark it up $50k and move it before the paint falls off lol. Not what I am looking to get into. Long run I would love to focus more and more on the higher end aircraft, specifically corporate, starting at anything thats been well taken care of.

 

[jimd118]

Guessing that ghost writing and/or composition aren't among them?:wink2:

lol, or at least proof reading...

BTW what language was that I was speaking?

 

[wabower]

Dunno, but it was consistent so you should get at least a passing grade.

lol, or at least proof reading...

BTW what language was that I was speaking?

 

[AggieMike88]

We frequently talk about brokers from the perspective of them acting as a seller's rep. And we see many of them in the advertisements of aircraft for sale.

But an area that I don't see much play on is who are the good guys for representing the buyers? I only know of Wayne Bower for the big aircraft and Guy Maher for the Cardinals. (There might be other good guys for different airframes out there, but they aren't making themselves a well known name).

From this, a niche that might have some decent space while you get going is being a buyer's rep for single engine aircraft.

Be sorta like a Realtor who would listen to my needs/wants/wishes and then starts working to find something that fits the criteria and budget. Use your knowledge to help the buyer come from a fantastical "I want to fly all the time with my family and friends and go lickity fast and fly every day" to the more realistic "solo with occasional single passenger, mostly burgers and breakfast, with a 250nm+ trip a few times a year. Use your knowledge, resources, expertise to identify the aircraft, scour logbooks, talk to the seller rep and seller mechanic to ensure the aircraft you bring as a prospect is a good one. Then use your knowledge and skill to create a solid offer that both buyer and seller are happy with. And work through the sales process to ensure escrow, title, registration, and more go smoothly.

Perhaps you become someone who the seller reps make contact with to share what they just put on the market (or have as a pocket listing) and are asking if you have a client looking so a quick sale can be done.

Again, I keep thinking of how the real estate market is done with how their brokers work (okay, I admit I watch the "Selling Millions" shows on BravoTV).

Because my time is valuable, I would consider working with such a buyers rep for a reasonable fee, especially if the service is top shelf and the right aircraft at the right price is found and purchased. How much would I pay? Kinda depends... perhaps a flat minimum on a less than $40k aircraft and then a reasonable percentage for something more? Paying an AMU or two to have someone do all the heavy searching, research, and more can be worth the saved time and peace of mind on an airframe in $65k-150k range. Ask for a reasonable retainer to start, and then a proper amount when the deal is closed.

My recent anecdote I can share along this line is a potential co-owner partner and I paid well known expert for a particular airframe type for advice on a potential purchase. We sent over photos of the logbooks, airframe, interior, panel, engine bay, etc along with all the other information we had. What we got was a wealth of information, reviews, AD details, pointers on what was there that was good, and a long list of things that were questionable.

Spike made the comment about educating buyers. We learned a lot from our hired gun and enough to know that while the aircraft had nice paint, good panel, and good interior (all the shiny shiny stuff), there were enough questions about the airframe and powerplant that made us walk away. Again, hiring this expert was worth the money. So by extension, I'd carry that over to a good buyer's representative who would assist in educating me on why this particular individual aircraft is either a golden apple of a deal or a total lipsticked pig.

So becoming known as the champion for the buyers in the smaller single engine market might be a good way to get your new business going. And then you can always hand this off to your newly hired protege when you're ready to move up into the cabin class twins and bigger deals.

 

[asgcpa]

There is a guy in Chicago that is a buyers rep, and they also act as a sellers rep. Seems very knowledgable. He was offering his services for $3,000.

Spoke to an outfit in Indiana. All their plane write ups are the same...review of logs showed no visible damage...ferry pilot flew from X no issues...etc. Spoke to them and I got turned off. Basically, it's take it or leave it attitude. Insisted I use a pre buy from a local shop. Did research on yelp and there was 1 review of them. It was horrid, things that were written were what I had perceived in my conversation itch the sales rep. Bottom line is be transparent and treat your customers like they are the most important people in your life. Good luck.

 

[retailguy]

Spike, don't be too harsh on the "Call for price" listings by brokers. A number of legitimate reasons exist for such ads, many that clearly work in the buyer's favor.

Among them are "I didn't want to post the asking price because nobody would call. The seller is starting to realize that his asking price is a figment, and may be open to offers at a reasonable price if you're inclined to make one."

And even if the price is off the charts, you will gain another data point for your comps spreadsheet and perhaps much more at the expense of 5 minutes of your time. It's a frog-kissing business in which a certain amount of wartiness is inherent and unavoidable in search of the prince/princess you want to take home to mom.

Wayne, you have a lot more experience at this type of thing than I do. However, I would NEVER call without knowing what the price is. I have no time, no patience, and it is not my job to educate the seller about his price. If the seller is ready to deal, we'll make a deal, if not, I'm calling the next one.

With my luck, I'd get the only broker who uses his caller ID to pester me for the next six months trying to talk me into his latest deal...

Personally, I think the best thing that could happen to a seller is to post his price/no price and have his phone NOT ring.

 

[jimd118]

We frequently talk about brokers from the perspective of them acting as a seller's rep. And we see many of them in the advertisements of aircraft for sale.

But an area that I don't see much play on is who are the good guys for representing the buyers? I only know of Wayne Bower for the big aircraft and Guy Maher for the Cardinals. (There might be other good guys for different airframes out there, but they aren't making themselves a well known name).

From this, a niche that might have some decent space while you get going is being a buyer's rep for single engine aircraft.

Be sorta like a Realtor who would listen to my needs/wants/wishes and then starts working to find something that fits the criteria and budget. Use your knowledge to help the buyer come from a fantastical "I want to fly all the time with my family and friends and go lickity fast and fly every day" to the more realistic "solo with occasional single passenger, mostly burgers and breakfast, with a 250nm+ trip a few times a year. Use your knowledge, resources, expertise to identify the aircraft, scour logbooks, talk to the seller rep and seller mechanic to ensure the aircraft you bring as a prospect is a good one. Then use your knowledge and skill to create a solid offer that both buyer and seller are happy with. And work through the sales process to ensure escrow, title, registration, and more go smoothly.

Perhaps you become someone who the seller reps make contact with to share what they just put on the market (or have as a pocket listing) and are asking if you have a client looking so a quick sale can be done.

Again, I keep thinking of how the real estate market is done with how their brokers work (okay, I admit I watch the "Selling Millions" shows on BravoTV).

Because my time is valuable, I would consider working with such a buyers rep for a reasonable fee, especially if the service is top shelf and the right aircraft at the right price is found and purchased. How much would I pay? Kinda depends... perhaps a flat minimum on a less than $40k aircraft and then a reasonable percentage for something more? Paying an AMU or two to have someone do all the heavy searching, research, and more can be worth the saved time and peace of mind on an airframe in $65k-150k range. Ask for a reasonable retainer to start, and then a proper amount when the deal is closed.

My recent anecdote I can share along this line is a potential co-owner partner and I paid well known expert for a particular airframe type for advice on a potential purchase. We sent over photos of the logbooks, airframe, interior, panel, engine bay, etc along with all the other information we had. What we got was a wealth of information, reviews, AD details, pointers on what was there that was good, and a long list of things that were questionable.

Spike made the comment about educating buyers. We learned a lot from our hired gun and enough to know that while the aircraft had nice paint, good panel, and good interior (all the shiny shiny stuff), there were enough questions about the airframe and powerplant that made us walk away. Again, hiring this expert was worth the money. So by extension, I'd carry that over to a good buyer's representative who would assist in educating me on why this particular individual aircraft is either a golden apple of a deal or a total lipsticked pig.

So becoming known as the champion for the buyers in the smaller single engine market might be a good way to get your new business going. And then you can always hand this off to your newly hired protege when you're ready to move up into the cabin class twins and bigger deals.

Thank you very much for taking the time to put your thoughts out there, this was rather valuable to me as I was questioning whether or not to even offer the acquisition side of the job. Seems as though it may be worthwhile to give a go and see what response I get. I truly want to be 100% honest with both parties in this work. Im going into it with the realization there may be jobs that are simply over my head, if these come up I am prepared to put my limitations up front and let the client know where I stand and they may be better served else where. I really do not feel this can hurt me in any way in the long run as well. There is another broker on the field that only works with medium to large high end Corporate aircraft and I had made contact with them hoping to make peace and possibly form a productive positive business relationship for the future. We shouldnt be stepping on each others toes as we are operating in different markets for the time being and I was willing to send him the jobs that were over my head. He has not proven to be very welcoming to me and does not seem to want any interaction whatsoever which is sad. They are a newer but large scale national broker working at the top end so I didnt think they would be very threatened by the new young guy, doesnt seem to be the case though.

 

[wabower]

We frequently talk about brokers from the perspective of them acting as a seller's rep. And we see many of them in the advertisements of aircraft for sale.

But an area that I don't see much play on is who are the good guys for representing the buyers? I only know of Wayne Bower for the big aircraft and Guy Maher for the Cardinals. (There might be other good guys for different airframes out there, but they aren't making themselves a well known name).

Mike Simmons in NC has been doing this stuff for years. He's NAAA appraiser and buyer rep who works singles and twins (other than toys) as well as bigger planes. Nice guy, knows his stuff.

From this, a niche that might have some decent space while you get going is being a buyer's rep for single engine aircraft.

When they asked Willie Sutton why he robbed banks, he replied "Because that's where they keep the money." Conversely, there's not much of it in the S/E GA buyer rep biz, which is why not many seek it out.

Be sorta like a Realtor who would listen to my needs/wants/wishes and then starts working to find something that fits the criteria and budget. Use your knowledge to help the buyer come from a fantastical "I want to fly all the time with my family and friends and go lickity fast and fly every day" to the more realistic "solo with occasional single passenger, mostly burgers and breakfast, with a 250nm+ trip a few times a year. Use your knowledge, resources, expertise to identify the aircraft, scour logbooks, talk to the seller rep and seller mechanic to ensure the aircraft you bring as a prospect is a good one. Then use your knowledge and skill to create a solid offer that both buyer and seller are happy with. And work through the sales process to ensure escrow, title, registration, and more go smoothly.

Perhaps you become someone who the seller reps make contact with to share what they just put on the market (or have as a pocket listing) and are asking if you have a client looking so a quick sale can be done.

Again, I keep thinking of how the real estate market is done with how their brokers work (okay, I admit I watch the "Selling Millions" shows on BravoTV).

Because my time is valuable, I would consider working with such a buyers rep for a reasonable fee, especially if the service is top shelf and the right aircraft at the right price is found and purchased. How much would I pay? Kinda depends... perhaps a flat minimum on a less than $40k aircraft and then a reasonable percentage for something more? Paying an AMU or two to have someone do all the heavy searching, research, and more can be worth the saved time and peace of mind on an airframe in $65k-150k range. Ask for a reasonable retainer to start, and then a proper amount when the deal is closed.

Four paragraphs to describe more than 100 hours of work for me, and I see "an AMU or two" mentioned in the comp discussion? As well as the comment that your time is valuable? So is mine. What's your hourly billing rate?

My recent anecdote I can share along this line is a potential co-owner partner and I paid well known expert for a particular airframe type for advice on a potential purchase. We sent over photos of the logbooks, airframe, interior, panel, engine bay, etc along with all the other information we had. What we got was a wealth of information, reviews, AD details, pointers on what was there that was good, and a long list of things that were questionable.

What's the going rate for such hand-holding?

Spike made the comment about educating buyers. We learned a lot from our hired gun and enough to know that while the aircraft had nice paint, good panel, and good interior (all the shiny shiny stuff), there were enough questions about the airframe and powerplant that made us walk away. Again, hiring this expert was worth the money. So by extension, I'd carry that over to a good buyer's representative who would assist in educating me on why this particular individual aircraft is either a golden apple of a deal or a total lipsticked pig.

So if the first one we chase looks good at first but then turns out to be a cosmetically-enhanced sow, then what? Start over with another fee to find another one? Or are you thinking that it's a "pitch 'til you win" deal that I get paid one time no matter how many planes we chase or how many hours I spend until we find one you like?

So becoming known as the champion for the buyers in the smaller single engine market might be a good way to get your new business going. And then you can always hand this off to your newly hired protege when you're ready to move up into the cabin class twins and bigger deals.

I see this as one of those "and Slim just left town" deals. Maybe there's somebody who thinks that doing little airplane deals should qualify a guy to do bigger ones, but I've yet to meet them.

I frankly think the new guy is in for a long dry spell. For openers, we have no idea what he brings to the table other than wanting to be in the business. What specific knowledge and experience about airplane deals does he possess that adds value to the equation?

Obtaining listings is tough, prices are low, doing all the things that people expect brokers to do is tedious and time-consuming, and nobody likes to pay brokers for stuff they think (whether mistakenly or not) that they can do as well or better themselves. The best advice I can give him at this point is "don't quit your day job."

 

[jimd118]

There is a guy in Chicago that is a buyers rep, and they also act as a sellers rep. Seems very knowledgable. He was offering his services for $3,000.

Spoke to an outfit in Indiana. All their plane write ups are the same...review of logs showed no visible damage...ferry pilot flew from X no issues...etc. Spoke to them and I got turned off. Basically, it's take it or leave it attitude. Insisted I use a pre buy from a local shop. Did research on yelp and there was 1 review of them. It was horrid, things that were written were what I had perceived in my conversation itch the sales rep. Bottom line is be transparent and treat your customers like they are the most important people in your life. Good luck.

Thank you, good to know.

 

[comanchepilot]

Be honest. Work for both parties - your buyer could be a seller one day.

Answer every single inquiry - no matter how much you think it might be someone not qualified to buy.

 

[retailguy]

Answer every single inquiry - no matter how much you think it might be someone not qualified to buy.

Best advice. I learned that in selling our 172 in May. Guy emails me on a Thursday. two sentences. Made a cash offer and asked if we'd take it. Didn't ask ONE question about the plane. Zip. Nada.

I told him no, and told him the price just below the ad price was it, and if it didn't sell for that we were prepared to keep it.

He flew over on Saturday with his mechanic, 30 minutes later, he handed me a bank bag with cash in it. Mechanic flew it home.

I thought the guy was a complete flake and a blowhard until he whipped out the cash. I was wrong, and am very glad I didn't treat him like a flake.

 

[jimd118]

We frequently talk about brokers from the perspective of them acting as a seller's rep. And we see many of them in the advertisements of aircraft for sale.



Mike Simmons in NC has been doing this stuff for years. He's NAAA appraiser and buyer rep who works singles and twins (other than toys) as well as bigger planes. Nice guy, knows his stuff.



When they asked Willie Sutton why he robbed banks, he replied "Because that's where they keep the money." Conversely, there's not much of it in the S/E GA buyer rep biz, which is why not many seek it out.



Four paragraphs to describe more than 100 hours of work for me, and I see "an AMU or two" mentioned in the comp discussion? As well as the comment that your time is valuable? So is mine. What's your hourly billing rate?



What's the going rate for such hand-holding?



So if the first one we chase looks good at first but then turns out to be a cosmetically-enhanced sow, then what? Start over with another fee to find another one? Or are you thinking that it's a "pitch 'til you win" deal that I get paid one time no matter how many planes we chase or how many hours I spend until we find one you like?



I see this as one of those "and Slim just left town" deals. Maybe there's somebody who thinks that doing little airplane deals should qualify a guy to do bigger ones, but I've yet to meet them.

I frankly think the new guy is in for a long dry spell. For openers, we have no idea what he brings to the table other than wanting to be in the business. What specific knowledge and experience about airplane deals does he possess that adds value to the equation?

Obtaining listings is tough, prices are low, doing all the things that people expect brokers to do is tedious and time-consuming, and nobody likes to pay brokers for stuff they think (whether mistakenly or not) that they can do as well or better themselves. The best advice I can give him at this point is "don't quit your day job."

My timing in starting this is based on the fact I am stable with my other business so I am not reliant upon getting immediate deals going with the brokerage game. I have worked in the industry as a pilot as well as managing a flight school and then an airport. Ive got a good general over view of all sides of aviation but honestly no expertise in any certain area or specific aircraft type. I have however worked with my other business in the marketing world for awhile now and that is my big push. I am in the process of developing a network of contacts for the areas I lack. I will however be providing a broad range of marketing angles as well as Professional photography and videography of every aircraft I represent. Because of this I wish to have a focus on clean history and well kept aircraft and truly be able to showcase these aircraft in "all of their glory". I have bought and sold aircraft for the flight school I had worked with in the past and it always upset me how many brokers had such a great aircraft for sale yet represented it so poorly visually. If you've got nothing to hide and can get buyers attention over the other adds out their then I think I will have a step up on some of the competition.

 

[wabower]

I wish you well and hope you succeed, but this post suggests to me that you don't understand how business works.

What possible benefit does an established broker gain from having a newb hanging around, especially when he already knows the segment of the business you're chasing doesn't pay squat? If he's well-established, why wouldn't he have a small-plane division too? Even if you had an established business and knew what you're doing, why would he think you would start finding prospects that would help him?

How long before the new guy figures out what the old guy already knows and decides he's now a big-airplane guy rather than a little airplane guy and becomes an on-field competitor? Everybody knows how employment agreements are construed by the courts, so the old guy can't protect himself with agreements that won't hold water. Do you think perhaps the old guy has seen this movie a few times in the past?

Or maybe the old guy has probably done the math and figured out that his business is worth at least a couple of commas and that selling it to somebody capable of buying it is preferable to other options. Why would he screw that up?

 

[Ted]

That's pretty much why I stopped trying to be involved in brokering after being involved in 0 sales on the buy or sell side.

I'll stick to buying/selling the planes that I have a personal vested interest in.

 

[AggieMike88]

Gee, Wayne... I guess my idea is now so full of holes it wouldn't cause a puff of air to notice as it passes through. My apologies for offering an opinion, idea, and enthusiasm that doesn't fit your business model but might be of interest to someone else.

But I still consider us friends and will buy you breakfast or lunch next time we ever link up at 3T0.

 

[jimd118]

I wish you well and hope you succeed, but this post suggests to me that you don't understand how business works.

What possible benefit does an established broker gain from having a newb hanging around, especially when he already knows the segment of the business you're chasing doesn't pay squat? If he's well-established, why wouldn't he have a small-plane division too? Even if you had an established business and knew what you're doing, why would he think you would start finding prospects that would help him?

How long before the new guy figures out what the old guy already knows and decides he's now a big-airplane guy rather than a little airplane guy and becomes an on-field competitor? Everybody knows how employment agreements are construed by the courts, so the old guy can't protect himself with agreements that won't hold water. Do you think perhaps the old guy has seen this movie a few times in the past?

Or maybe the old guy has probably done the math and figured out that his business is worth at least a couple of commas and that selling it to somebody capable of buying it is preferable to other options. Why would he screw that up?

I without a doubt see what your saying but I have also been in the business world long enough to know its never a good idea to completely ignore the little guy as the little guy may not always be the little guy. We are operating on the same field with a lot of traffic of both high end small GA aircraft and a large number of all forms of corporate aircraft from King Airs to BBJ's. I would not dare ask for him to take me under his wing as of course he would not jump on something like that. However I was looking to just be civil and as I stated I would be happy to forward the jobs that were above me to him. He has zero interest in anything under $5mil so at this time we are working in very different markets. I am a fair and honest man, if he was civil with me and we helped each other by passing the business we didnt want to one another I wouldnt dare come back and bite him if I were to grow, its not how I operate. However his rude rejection to even being civil as businessmen in the same industry has done nothing to make me care much if I have an effect on his business in the future. He even went to the company I am leasing my office from on the field after I first made contact with him and tried to bribe my lease away. I was told he was sternly notified that such things are not only illegal but they were excited to have such a motivated individual on site. Oh well, im sticking with it. He is probably hoping I will lose steam shortly and move on.

 

[marcoseddi]

How do you plan on selling planes for customers typical eBay barnstormers for them?

 

[wabower]

From my vantage point I'm able to see and converse with many people who aspire to be in the aviation business, and some who actually make the leap. Many times the newbs are people who have been successful in other fields and assume they can duplicate that success in aviation. Unfortunately, their failure rate is astonishingly high. Although I don't think of it as a particularly difficult business, I'm constantly reminded by comments after phone calls or other interactions with others that the complexities are far greater than they had previously thought.

If you're well-capitalized, don't mind burning your savings in order to support yourself for a few years and are very lucky, you might generate positive cash flow by 2015, but that's my best-case. There's not much a newb can offer that can't be more than matched by others, so you'll need time to develop credibility and an ongoing source of listings that allow you an opportunity to work them to fruition.

The most predictable pattern of success for young guys is to work for an established sales organization (Van Bortel comes to mind) for a sufficient time to learn how things really work (and more importantly what doesn't) with an opportunity to earn some commissions and gain experience without betting the farm. Doing it on your own is an incredibly long-odds deal.

I without a doubt see what your saying but I have also been in the business world long enough to know its never a good idea to completely ignore the little guy as the little guy may not always be the little guy. We are operating on the same field with a lot of traffic of both high end small GA aircraft and a large number of all forms of corporate aircraft from King Airs to BBJ's. I would not dare ask for him to take me under his wing as of course he would not jump on something like that. However I was looking to just be civil and as I stated I would be happy to forward the jobs that were above me to him. He has zero interest in anything under $5mil so at this time we are working in very different markets. I am a fair and honest man, if he was civil with me and we helped each other by passing the business we didnt want to one another I wouldnt dare come back and bite him if I were to grow, its not how I operate. However his rude rejection to even being civil as businessmen in the same industry has done nothing to make me care much if I have an effect on his business in the future. He even went to the company I am leasing my office from on the field after I first made contact with him and tried to bribe my lease away. I was told he was sternly notified that such things are not only illegal but they were excited to have such a motivated individual on site. Oh well, im sticking with it. He is probably hoping I will lose steam shortly and move on.

 

[asgcpa]

I without a doubt see what your saying but I have also been in the business world long enough to know its never a good idea to completely ignore the little guy as the little guy may not always be the little guy.

Interesting you use this phrase. My late grandfather was pulled out of middle school in the late 1920s to learn a trade (watchmaker). He rode his bike to work. His bike broke down and next to work there was a service station. He asked to borrow a wrench, to which the owner/mechanic told him to get lost kid. Years later, after developing a successful business, he bought the building on the other side of the service station. He never do much bought gas or anything else from that service station. When the owner asked why my grandfather never patronized the station, my grandfather reiterated what happened some 35 years before.

I was told this story as a child, and has stuck with me so I try to treat all my clients as if they were my special client.

I wish you well in your venture. If you find a Cherokee pathfinder or 235, send me a PM. I would be most willing to chat.

 

[wabower]

Remember from your counselor selling course when they emphasized that you must consider feedback as neutral and move on without imputing motivation or other emotion that may not reflect the views of the responder?

Maybe he will write a similar post about getting in the auto salvage business so I can blow smoke up his ass about how wonderful it will be and how I'd like some help buying a hood for my wife's Lexus and you can tell both of us how it really works for a one-man start-up operation. Then we'd have more to talk about at the next fly-out breakfast at Walt's.

Gee, Wayne... I guess my idea is now so full of holes it wouldn't cause a puff of air to notice as it passes through. My apologies for offering an opinion, idea, and enthusiasm that doesn't fit your business model but might be of interest to someone else.

But I still consider us friends and will buy you breakfast or lunch next time we ever link up at 3T0.

 

[jimd118]

From my vantage point I'm able to see and converse with many people who aspire to be in the aviation business, and some who actually make the leap. Many times the newbs are people who have been successful in other fields and assume they can duplicate that success in aviation. Unfortunately, their failure rate is astonishingly high. Although I don't think of it as a particularly difficult business, I'm constantly reminded by comments after phone calls or other interactions with others that the complexities are far greater than they had previously thought.

If you're well-capitalized, don't mind burning your savings in order to support yourself for a few years and are very lucky, you might generate positive cash flow by 2015, but that's my best-case. There's not much a newb can offer that can't be more than matched by others, so you'll need time to develop credibility and an ongoing source of listings that allow you an opportunity to work them to fruition.

The most predictable pattern of success for young guys is to work for an established sales organization (Van Bortel comes to mind) for a sufficient time to learn how things really work (and more importantly what doesn't) with an opportunity to earn some commissions and gain experience without betting the farm. Doing it on your own is an incredibly long-odds deal.

Mindsets like yours have been what has fueled me to be successful within my other businesses these past ten years. Each endeavor I have taken on has had way more reasons it wouldnt work than those as to why it should work. I have worked my butt off at each of them and have established successful and reputable businesses in all of those. I understand this record still does not make me invincible to a tough industry. What it has done however is give me the work ethic to keep going even when its not the most glamorous and the pay is not matching up with the work ive put in for the time being. I have seen just how a bit of sacrificing can truly pay off in the future. I have been in situations that I felt like a may have been not worthy with my experience to be in, rather than running the opposite way I have always stepped up and put the time in to gain the knowledge to become confident in those situations for that field. Im not trying to toot my own horn per say now, what I am saying is im a little past the point of having someone talk me out of this path simply because it may not be easy, the most profitable, or even work at all in the long run. I put about 6 months of debating on whether it was worth the leap and that is now the past, I have committed to making a go at it. I can except backing out in a few years if I have had a negative experience and have not turned a profit, I however cannot live with turning my back on something I am passionate and very excited about getting into and gaining experience and a reputation over time at simply because the odds favor failure within the industry.

I did not come here looking for opinions on whether I should be entering this field or not, I came looking for personal experiences I could use to do this job and serve my customers in the best way I can. I feel like you have not been happy with your personal journey within the industry and so you wish to project that upon me which is unfortunate and I wish you a more positive outlook for the future and your interactions with others in the industry. Like I said you should never underestimate the small guy, almost everyone was there at one point. I look back at my first job, washing airplanes in exchange for flight time when I was 13, I would have never dreamed I would be doing the things I am today. I have no idea where I will be in another 15 years but the last 15 has taught me if you keep up the hard work it will most likely be someplace I couldnt have imagined from my current view point.

 

[jimd118]

Interesting you use this phrase. My late grandfather was pulled out of middle school in the late 1920s to learn a trade (watchmaker). He rode his bike to work. His bike broke down and next to work there was a service station. He asked to borrow a wrench, to which the owner/mechanic told him to get lost kid. Years later, after developing a successful business, he bought the building on the other side of the service station. He never do much bought gas or anything else from that service station. When the owner asked why my grandfather never patronized the station, my grandfather reiterated what happened some 35 years before.

I was told this story as a child, and has stuck with me so I try to treat all my clients as if they were my special client.

I wish you well in your venture. If you find a Cherokee pathfinder or 235, send me a PM. I would be most willing to chat.

The support is much appreciated. Great story as well. An associate of my other business was actually on the edge of purchasing a beautiful 235 in SC, I will give him a ring and see if he pulled the trigger, if not I will get you some info.

 

[denverpilot]

I keep seeing the title of this thread and expecting to see some guy working to sell me mutual funds with high fees. LOL

 

[jimd118]

I keep seeing the title of this thread and expecting to see some guy working to sell me mutual funds with high fees. LOL

Have you given any thought to retirement yet? Our specialists are standing by to take your money!

 

[N747JB]

Jim, I admire your dream of changing careers and getting into something you are passionate about. My wife would LOVE to open a car wash, I have no idea why, but I am not going to borrow $2 million bucks to see how she likes it.
The best advice that I have seen so far is from Wayne, he knows the airplane business as well as anyone on this board. Somewhere in his usual smart ass comments I think he advised going to work for someone else and learning the ropes. Van Bortel is who he mentioned as one who does things right, there are several good ones out there that have launched the careers of some other great brokers. Starting from scratch with no experience in the brokering of airplanes may not be financial suicide, but it's pretty danged close. I told my wife if she wanted me to build her a car wash, I would, after she worked at one for 2 years, so far she hasn't applied at any car washes.
The main issue starting out is the airplane business is a very, very small world, it would be much easier if other brokers and dealers knew you from your work at XYZ sales. Just a couple thoughts and I wish you the best!

 

[jimd118]

Jim, I admire your dream of changing careers and getting into something you are passionate about. My wife would LOVE to open a car wash, I have no idea why, but I am not going to borrow $2 million bucks to see how she likes it.
The best advice that I have seen so far is from Wayne, he knows the airplane business as well as anyone on this board. Somewhere in his usual smart ass comments I think he advised going to work for someone else and learning the ropes. Van Bortel is who he mentioned as one who does things right, there are several good ones out there that have launched the careers of some other great brokers. Starting from scratch with no experience in the brokering of airplanes may not be financial suicide, but it's pretty danged close. I told my wife if she wanted me to build her a car wash, I would, after she worked at one for 2 years, so far she hasn't applied at any car washes.
The main issue starting out is the airplane business is a very, very small world, it would be much easier if other brokers and dealers knew you from your work at XYZ sales. Just a couple thoughts and I wish you the best!

I can definitely agree with this and it was actually my initial intention to take a route such as this. Unfortunately there doesnt seem to be much for large operations within my region that hire additional sales staff. Every where in the region seems to be one or two man operations. Unlike the car wash endeavor however there is much less overhead for me starting out. I have no 2mil startup cost so theres much less risk than jumping into something like that. I have an affordable lease currently for my office at the airport with affordable options to grow in the future, as with the standard procedures of the brokerage game I am not covering maintenance, transportation, or hanger costs of my clients. Besides the cost of insurance, rent, and advertising its much more affordable than my other business. Being that my other business is within aviation as well, if all falls through I will still hang on to the business location for the other company. Its low risk with a low initial investment cost and my current career allows me the flexibility and time to still deal with clients in a timely manner 7 days a week. I have the flexibility to travel if needed and meet with people on short notice. I am entering into this not with the expectation to be making millions next month moving airplanes left and right. Im starting slow to learn the things I dont already know and being honest with my capabilities of which some without question are superior to other people in this market, and some I am most likely clueless from my current view point I will not deny.

Like I said I can appreciate Wayne's underlying intentions, however I know how I work and I know how I learn and I am still going into this with cautious confidence. When I started my aerial photo company I dealt with many of Waynes telling me I didnt know the field professionally and I would end up being just another pilot trying to make money with a camera. I started small and put myself through college a second time for a BFA in Photo and built experience that entire time doing jobs the right way, and not settling for anything less. Sometimes loosing money to keep my customers happy. I grew the business to be a regionally operating and reputable company serving everything from Construction needs to insurance and value assessment operations in the NE. I then decided to move the business which I was told was nothing but stupid and suicide as I already was established and stable in the North. Ive been at the new location for less than a year now and I have already regrown the business larger than my previous operation in that time, covering a larger territory, and my customers pay me more than my competition with a smile on their face which you cant beat. I am putting out some of the highest quality work in the industry and lately about a third of my work is reshooting for companies that hired someone else and need it redone correctly.

I have also worked within the photo and marketing side of the Outdoor industry with my other business for a number of years. Yet again everyone in the industry said stay away, its too small and without experience its a waste of time, you will never go anywhere. I was told initially by some of the bigger companies and agencies they wouldnt deal with me and to find work within a specific company before working as your own company. Within about a year of growing the business I was selling work to almost of all of these sources on a regular basis, which felt fantastic given their not so warm welcome. This business has grown as well with the move and my current balance between the businesses was about 70% aerial and 30% outdoor. Both were growing but the outdoor one I was unhappy the direction the industry was moving within the past year and I was being put into a situation where I was either going to have to dedicate much more time to it or start turning work away. I opted to turn the work away and begin putting it to rest, investing this time and energy into this other aviation business I had been wanting to pursue. That industry is going away quickly from the quality work and trading it for quantity at a low cost which I am not ok with. So here I am jumping into a new body of water. Im not blind to the industry but I am inexperienced. Like I said previous to these businesses and aside from them while growing them initially I worked for years managing a flight school and then an entire airport. I have bought and sold aircraft for employers and handled marketing or numerous associated businesses in the industry. Im not totally hopeless, or at least I dont think so lol

 

[jimd118]

A questions for those that have bought and sold, does anyone have any recommended Escrow services for larger deals? I have zero local options with experience within the aviation market. I already have a great partnership lined up with an on demand mechanic for questions and pre buys, a larger mechanic shop for any major work that may need done, experienced ferrying options, interior shop, and working on some decent insurance and financing connections.