Starting a plane that has been sitting for years...

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Danny Dub

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Danny Dub
Trying to revive an old Navion that has been hangered but not run in at least 5 years.

Clearly some real work will be required to make it airworthy again.

As a start I'm thinking to drain fuel, change oil, charge battery.

I am trying to do the simple stuff before the A&P comes in to do the real work.

Suggestions?

Thanks!
 
Have you already turned the prop?

Fog each cylinder with any good light oil, WD 40 or the like, before you spin it on the starter .. it's an old E-220. ?
 
Tom-D said:
Have you already turned the prop?

Fog each cylinder with any good light oil, WD 40 or the like, before you spin it on the starter .. it's an old E-220. ?
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Yes I think 225 HP is what I am told. So take off spark plugs and fog cylinder.
 
Danny Dub said:
Yes I think 225 HP is what I am told. So take off spark plugs and fog cylinder.
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You may want to know that old barn find engine is probably worth more as parts than the aircraft.
but it is a gang buster aircraft with a 0-520.

after you get plenty oil in the cylinders, by the top plugs, remove the lower plugs and turn the engine over by hand and see what drains out of the lower plug holes, see if it shows rust, if not replace the plugs and start it.
Does it have an old Royby prop with composite blades? If so, they are noted for casting a blade when at high RPM.
 
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No it has a metal prop. Bladder hub or something like that.
 
Tom-D said:
Oh great,, another leak yet to be found. :(
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LOL, I think that's an understatement there. The diaphragm props WILL leak oil. On an airplane sitting that long I'd probably suggest replacing the diaphragm before flying too.

Another note with those props. It is likely variable pitch, not constant speed. Big difference.
 
Personally I would bore scope the cylinders before turning the prop. Flood the cylinders with oil and let sit for a day. If any rust if found pull the cylinders hone and re ring at the very least.

You did not give mush information. Year of plane, type engine, SMOH time.... Fill in the blanks.. Could be a very nice plane with a little TLC..:)
 
Call the A+P that’s going to do the work,ask him what you can do before he gets there.
 
AKBill said:
If any rust if found pull the cylinders hone and re ring at the very least.
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Where are ya going to find rings? NAPA?
What engines did the Navions have?
 
Tom-D said:
Where are ya going to find rings? NAPA?
What engines did the Navions have?
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Come on Tom, at this point we don't know what engine is in the plane. He never posted that, or I missed something when he said he thinks it's 225hp. Lighten up PARD....:)
 
I'd pull the top plugs and spray a little aerosol penetrating oil in each jug. Let it sit a while and with plugs still out crank the engine until you get oil pressure showing on the panel gauge. Now it's pre oiled and any light rust in the cylinders has been wiped. Reinstall plugs and fire it up.

WD-40 would not be my choice. I'd use Aerokroil or Mystery Oil in the cylinders.
 
Tom-D said:
Where are ya going to find rings? NAPA?
What engines did the Navions have?
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The originals had E-185's, most upgraded to 205 HP. A few came with 225's but many were upgraded (it didn't require any modifications to do so). Then as Bonanzas got bigger engines, so did the Navions. Ryan beefed up the fuelage a bit allowing 260HP GO-435 or IO-470's. The last of the Canopy models was approved for IO-520s. The Rangemasters came with IO-470,520, and 550 options.

Starting the engine is one thing, flying it is quite another. I can almost guarantee the prop on it is subject to some onerous ADs. If it's the Hartzell (most likely), if it is the double shoulder X or V hub, it needs an inspection, but in all liklihood it's unairworthy. The Macaulay prop is probably officially end-of-lifed.

E-225 parts are getting pretty darned scarce. Most have bit the bullet and put one of the injected Conts. in.

In addition to the problems with the engine, I can bet that the thing has a pS-5c presure carb and all the rubber in that is shot.
I can also bet that the fuel hoses probably are about as brittle as all gitout. I found one on my plane dated 1948 (amusing since mine is a 1950 model).

Yep, the prop diaphram probably needs to be replaced. You can start it, but I wouldn't plan on running the engine too long. I was getting good at changing prop diaphrams until I got rid of the gopher engine in mine.

If it's been parked for five years, it almost certainly is subject to the Navion moronic fuel valve AD. The good news is that other than the prop and the fuel valve, Navions haven't had ADs on them since the 60's I think and none of those were real onerous anyhow.
 
Stewartb said:
I'd pull the top plugs and spray a little aerosol penetrating oil in each jug. Let it sit a while and with plugs still out crank the engine until you get oil pressure showing on the panel gauge. Now it's pre oiled and any light rust in the cylinders has been wiped. Reinstall plugs and fire it up.

WD-40 would not be my choice. I'd use Aerokroil or Mystery Oil in the cylinders.
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All you really want to determine is will any rust wash out? WD-40 will show that and it is easy to fine and pretty cheap.
MMO will do it, but the rust will be more difficult to see in the red oil.
Aerokroil is used mostly to free stuck items ,, hopefully this engine isn't frozen.
 
flyingron said:
The originals had E-185's, most upgraded to 205 HP. A few came with 225's but many were upgraded (it didn't require any modifications to do so). Then as Bonanzas got bigger engines, so did the Navions. Ryan beefed up the fuelage a bit allowing 260HP GO-435 or IO-470's. The last of the Canopy models was approved for IO-520s. The Rangemasters came with IO-470,520, and 550 options.

Starting the engine is one thing, flying it is quite another. I can almost guarantee the prop on it is subject to some onerous ADs. If it's the Hartzell (most likely), if it is the double shoulder X or V hub, it needs an inspection, but in all liklihood it's unairworthy. The Macaulay prop is probably officially end-of-lifed.

E-225 parts are getting pretty darned scarce. Most have bit the bullet and put one of the injected Conts. in.

In addition to the problems with the engine, I can bet that the thing has a pS-5c presure carb and all the rubber in that is shot.
I can also bet that the fuel hoses probably are about as brittle as all gitout. I found one on my plane dated 1948 (amusing since mine is a 1950 model).

Yep, the prop diaphram probably needs to be replaced. You can start it, but I wouldn't plan on running the engine too long. I was getting good at changing prop diaphrams until I got rid of the gopher engine in mine.

If it's been parked for five years, it almost certainly is subject to the Navion moronic fuel valve AD. The good news is that other than the prop and the fuel valve, Navions haven't had ADs on them since the 60's I think and none of those were real onerous anyhow.
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Hopefully this barn find is in good enough condition to warrant the up grades it will need.
 
AKBill said:
Come on Tom, at this point we don't know what engine is in the plane. He never posted that, or I missed something when he said he thinks it's 225hp. Lighten up PARD....:)
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Does it seem logical to you that any aircraft would be upgraded at great expense and stored for 5 years ? It just didn't make sense to me .
 
Tom-D said:
Hopefully this barn find is in good enough condition to warrant the up grades it will need.
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The good news is that the Navion airframes are pretty bulletproof. The powerplant may indeed be worthless.
 
Tom-D said:
Does it seem logical to you that any aircraft would be upgraded at great expense and stored for 5 years ? It just didn't make sense to me .
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We don't know what the story is Tom. Danny may or may not fill in the rest of the blanks, his or her choice. Time will tell..
 
Thanks guys. Turns out it hasn't sat as bad as I thought. Supposedly has been run some. Prop AD has been complied with. Not sure about the fuel selector. It needs some TLC but my goal is to get it airworthy enough to get it to a Navion person who can annual and repair as necessary to get us flying.
 
It does have an engine that is good for 225hp for takeoff according to the owner. This used to get a regular flyer and has just sat for a few years. Fingers crossed that nothing terrible is wrong. Thanks for the information everyone.
 
It might be an E-225, but it also may be one of the older IO-470 variants (like the IO-470C). Does it have a carb?

I hate to break it to you, but if you haven't complied with the fuel selector AD, the plane is NOT airworthy at this point. The compliance grace period ended in 2009. There are two ways to comply with the AD: either do a rather onerous leak down test of the system or replace the fuel valve. The ersatz "manufacturer" produces one (with it's own problems) but AMOCs exist to use the PMA'd valve from the Navion Society or from the tip tank STC holder (JLOsborne). Aircraft Spruce sells an approved valve as well (not sure, but it appears to be the ANS one). Both the "factory, ahem" valve and the Navion Society valve are actually Andair valves remarked as legal parts. The Navion valve comes with a mount that puts it back in the original (recessed) floor location and uses AN fittings like the origianal vavle. THe "factory" valve uses banjo fittings and mounts like crap so the thing sticks up out of the floor where it can be stepped on. Further, it lacks the interlock to prevent it from being turned to off inadvertantly (my wife did this once with the old vavle in the pattern...very unnerving).

Oddly the JLO valve looks identical to the one that was there before except it now comes with extra ICA papers and has a part/SN stamped on it. The original Navion valves were just standard industrial fuel valves. Worked fine for 60 years until SH decided they might make some money by forcing people to buy new ones.
 
I have the deeply held suspicion that barn finds are not values in aviation unless the finder is an A&P or has one on retainer.
 
steingar said:
I have the deeply held suspicion that barn finds are not values in aviation unless the finder is an A&P or has one on retainer.
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Difficult to convince the new buyer that the cheap ones are not the ones they can afford.
 
The airframe (even the fuel valve AD) is not usually the problem. Most of the damage / corrosion points are pretty easy to spot if you know what you're looking for. The engine/prop can be a mess.

Note, that if you dreams of putting a 260HP or larger engine on a plane that didn't have one on it when you got it, there are fuselage mods that need to be done. Not a big thing, but the wings have to come off. Not a bad thing because if they've not been looked at for decades, the tanks probably need looking at as well (if nothing than to redo the chafe strips). Of course, if you want to do all that, you might as well demate the wings in place and flatbed the whole thing out (a 24' trailer will do it. I've done mine twice).
 
Not the same thing but I restored a barn find Willys pickup. change the oil an filter, overfill the oil sump (you'll drain it later for this step you can even use automotive oil.) Pull the plugs, use a $20 endoscope with your phone to check if there is any debris in the cylinder, squirt marvel mystery oil around the edges of the cylinder so it soaks in between the wall and the cylinder. Wait. Wait some more. Turn the engine with the plugs removed. Change the oil when the engine is turning freely. Not sure how to check the valves are OK. Once the engine turns, clean the fuel system carb or injectors with carb cleaner and let it dry. Replace the plugs. If you can use a fuel source other than the original tanks do so and fire it up. Run at low RPM and for a short time, check for leaks.
 
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