Started my commercial

flyingcheesehead

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Feb 23, 2005
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UQACY, WI
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iMooniac
Finally!

I've been trying to figure out the best way for me to do the commercial for a long time. My club doesn't have a retractable-gear airplane, and ever since I've been in the club I haven't really been too keen on renting. I'd tossed around the idea of joining a second club that's very similar to mine but has a complex airplane (Piper Arrow II) as their traveling bird rather than the high-performance one that we have. I'd also thought about doing the commercial multi first to get the retract part taken care of so that I could do the commercial single in a fixed-gear club plane. Finally, I'd thought about doing the ride in two airplanes - Landings in the rental Arrow and airwork in a club Archer. I already have more complex time than I need for the rating, so that would have kept rental to a minimum.

I finally gave up on trying to find the "best" way to do it, and decided to bite the bullet and just rent the Arrow IV at Wisconsin Aviation and get it done! I also switched CFI's - I'm trying to use a different instructor for each rating so that I can learn as many good tricks as possible, rather than use one instructor and be a clone of them. Gustav was at Wisconsin Aviation for several years and went on to an airline job, but decided he would rather instruct so he's now back as the chief pilot for the 141 program. His schedule is also a bit more open than some of the other instructors.

After about 45 minutes of ground talking about requirements, expectations, and some of the airwork we went out and preflighted. Aside from the T-tail, this Arrow is very much like N3327M, the old Arrow III which I have about 30 hours in. Same avionics and everything!

We took off and headed up to the northwest practice area. It was a very bumpy day, but that can be a good thing when you're practicing. After a pair of clearing turns, I did 50-degree steep turns in each direction. I've always liked steep turns and they "clicked" for me quite a long time ago, so despite the higher bank angle I was well within PTS standards on the first try.

Next, we did some slow flight and played around with various configurations and set off the automatic gear extension a couple of times so I could see how that worked. (27M, like most Arrows, has had that system removed. 13W has not.)

Next came chandelles. Gustav demonstrated one first, then I did one. Disable the auto-extend, set climb power, roll in 30 degrees of bank, pitch up slowly to reach 15 degrees pitch up at 90 degrees through the turn, then hold 15 degrees pitch up and slowly roll out through the last 90 degrees to level it out at the 180-degree mark. I ended up finishing the rollout about 10 degrees too early, but hey, it was my first try.

The first half of the chandelle seemed fairly easy, but the second half has me a bit confused. The rollout was a bit different than I'd expected - I was thinking that as airspeed reduced, the turn rate would remain higher with less bank which is somewhat true, but the last few degrees are, uh, interesting. I want to roll out fairy evenly, right? But at the end of the turn, that makes the turn rate very slow. That's kind of why I ended up level about 10 degrees too early. Any suggestions? How should the rollout work?

Finally, it was back to the airport for a few trips around the pattern. We kind of made a cloverleaf - Tower had us come straight in to 14, then left traffic to 21, and finally right traffic to 18. The first one wasn't great - The controls are very sticky on this plane, and I actually had to reach up with my right arm momentarily to help the flare. Frankly, none of the landings were as good as I'd like. The stiffness in the roll axis can be attributed to the aileron gap seals (one of our club planes has those too, and it's the same way) but I don't know of any good reason why the controls were sticky in pitch. They even made noise, and I think they're binding a bit where the column goes into the panel. Hopefully they can do something about that.

Overall, I really enjoyed the flight. I was glad to finally get started, and Gustav seems to be an excellent instructor. :yes:
 
you should almost be at stall speed at the 90 point in the turn. You have bled off a lot of speed. So, to keep the turn going without stalling, and keeping your pitch attitude you have roll out of the bank. Should be a constant roll out starting from the 90 all the way to the 180 point. So its going to take 15 seconds (around that) to complete the last 90 degrees. Should be reducing about 2 degrees of bank/second. And of course adding more back pressure as the bank angle reduces.
 
When TWR gives you a cloverleaf entry is where the Lazy Chandelle comes in. Ask your CFI.
 
sounds fun kent. isnt comm standard steep turns at 60 deg?
 
sounds fun kent. isnt comm standard steep turns at 60 deg?

PTS says something like not to exceed 60° +/-5. I don't have the PTS here, but I did mine at like 55° +/-
 
Cool beans, Kent!!

Comm. is next on my list, but with the way things are looking, it might be a while before I can afford to pay Tony his outrageous rates! ;)

Actually, there is a very slim chance that I might end up going somewhere to do Multi-Comm so I can kill two birds with one stone, then get the single add-on. Not sure how that's gonna pan out right now, though.

Good luck and keep us informed!
 
Cool beans, Kent!!

Comm. is next on my list, but with the way things are looking, it might be a while before I can afford to pay Tony his outrageous rates! ;)

Actually, there is a very slim chance that I might end up going somewhere to do Multi-Comm so I can kill two birds with one stone, then get the single add-on. Not sure how that's gonna pan out right now, though.

Good luck and keep us informed!

haha you don't know how cheap you had it... :D
go up to Estherville for a weekend and knock out the multi. I bet I can find some couch for you to sleep on and some pizza to eat.
 
haha you don't know how cheap you had it... :D
go up to Estherville for a weekend and knock out the multi. I bet I can find some couch for you to sleep on and some pizza to eat.

Actually, I DO know how cheap I had it. And I also know how well you had it. ;) It was the best of both worlds. ha!

Sounds good.. Does Estherville have a website? What do they fly for multi up there?
 
Actually, I DO know how cheap I had it. And I also know how well you had it. ;) It was the best of both worlds. ha!

Sounds good.. Does Estherville have a website? What do they fly for multi up there?

the colleges website is www.iowalakes.edu i dont know if they have anything specific for the aviation program on there. PM/email/call me and Ill get you contact for the Chief CFI up there. They have a Seneca I, the pig of the skies. Nice thing is it has 2 new engines on it and new panels on the belly :D
 
the colleges website is www.iowalakes.edu i dont know if they have anything specific for the aviation program on there. PM/email/call me and Ill get you contact for the Chief CFI up there. They have a Seneca I, the pig of the skies. Nice thing is it has 2 new engines on it and new panels on the belly :D

Ugh.. It's THAT good, huh? OH well, I guess that's what happens when people land them with the gear up, right TONY!! :D :D
 
Ugh.. It's THAT good, huh? OH well, I guess that's what happens when people land them with the gear up, right TONY!! :D :D

well it takes a certain amount of skill. the I is a great trainer, because it sucks at everything on one engine. teaches you a little respect. great great airplane on 2 engines though, especially when its just you and an instructor.
 
you should almost be at stall speed at the 90 point in the turn. You have bled off a lot of speed. So, to keep the turn going without stalling, and keeping your pitch attitude you have roll out of the bank. Should be a constant roll out starting from the 90 all the way to the 180 point. So its going to take 15 seconds (around that) to complete the last 90 degrees. Should be reducing about 2 degrees of bank/second. And of course adding more back pressure as the bank angle reduces.
Ed, you say "constant" and I'd describe it as a "gradual roll-out." But, it does seem to take forever compared to the first ninety.

You're best friend is a large, high visual reference in the distance I start the maneuver with it off my left wing. I've found if I can start out being downwind, all the better. I'm so stuck on instruments, it's next to impossible to focus on visual references any place but landing. Getting my eyes back out of the cabin is a hard habit to break.

Chandelles became pretty easy for me while Lazy Eights were more difficult for me to find that point after breaking; allowing the nose to drop back to altitude but without gaining excess speed.

I need to get back up again and stay in practice, especially with a CFI ride in the future.

Kent, good luck with it. Have fun! :)
 
Chandelles became pretty easy for me while Lazy Eights were more difficult for me to find that point after breaking; allowing the nose to drop back to altitude but without gaining excess speed.

Occasionally I got the excessive speed problem. But once I got the idea that you look outside the almost the entire time throughout the maneuver I was much better able to control the roll and pitch vectors to prevent that from happening.

At the beginning of the maneuver I would pick my 90 degree point and then roll into a 10 degree bank while starting the pull back on the yoke. My eyes stayed locked on target all throughout the maneuver.
 
Occasionally I got the excessive speed problem. But once I got the idea that you look outside the almost the entire time throughout the maneuver I was much better able to control the roll and pitch vectors to prevent that from happening.

At the beginning of the maneuver I would pick my 90 degree point and then roll into a 10 degree bank while starting the pull back on the yoke. My eyes stayed locked on target all throughout the maneuver.
For me, the funny thing was... sometimes I'd lose the visual reference entirely and instruments would be covered. I'd just fly by attitude and sound. They would come out near perfect.
 
Lazy 8's at least in my Cherokee, all I had to do was get them started, and was pretty much hands off the yoke pitch wise, and all I had to do was make the bank work out for the first 1/2, then give a little tug for the second half to get the plane to climb again, and that was pretty much it. If you are fighting with the lazy eights, you've got the wrong speed, the wrong trim, or something. They are LAZY eights, not conservative eights.
 
Keep the updates coming, Kent. I'm thinking about the commercial rating, maybe next summer. It's helpful to read about your experiences.
 
Hey Kent,

Look on iTunes for the UND Aerocast. It's a video podcast put out by UND Aerospace. They have an episode on commercial chandelles and on commercial eights on pylons, all flown in an arrow. Give them a whirl...

Glad that you got started and can't wait to read/hear your updates.
 
Hey Kent,

Look on iTunes for the UND Aerocast. It's a video podcast put out by UND Aerospace. They have an episode on commercial chandelles and on commercial eights on pylons, all flown in an arrow. Give them a whirl...

Glad that you got started and can't wait to read/hear your updates.
I tried looking for that but no luck. I'm not too "hip" on iTunes stuff since I use the old fashioned DVDs. A search for those on the itunes site didn't return anything. Got a more specific link?
 
sounds fun kent. isnt comm standard steep turns at 60 deg?

Used to be... But, I think someone figured out that 60 degrees +/- 5... Well, 60+5 = most likely a 91.307(c)(1) violation.

The current PTS states "at least 50 degrees."
 
Look on iTunes for the UND Aerocast. It's a video podcast put out by UND Aerospace. They have an episode on commercial chandelles and on commercial eights on pylons, all flown in an arrow. Give them a whirl...

Yep, seen that... I'll have to watch again if it's still on my machine. Thanks. :yes:
 
I tried looking for that but no luck. I'm not too "hip" on iTunes stuff since I use the old fashioned DVDs. A search for those on the itunes site didn't return anything. Got a more specific link?

1) Go into iTunes (the program, not the site)
2) Click "iTunes Store" in the sources on the left
3) In the search box on the upper right, type "UND Aerocast"
4) Only one result will show up. You can click the "subscribe" button, or you can click the podcast name up top to see a list of previous episodes that you can download for free. :)
 
1) Go into iTunes (the program, not the site)
2) Click "iTunes Store" in the sources on the left
3) In the search box on the upper right, type "UND Aerocast"
4) Only one result will show up. You can click the "subscribe" button, or you can click the podcast name up top to see a list of previous episodes that you can download for free. :)
Thanks, Kent.

I didn't know I'd have to download and install another program. I love free enterprise but it appears both major players don't like to play well with each other's applications.
 
Given that the PTS says "at least 50 degrees" for steep turns, and 91.307(c) says you need a parachute to go over 60 degrees (note that there is no requirement to go over 60 in this maneuver), and the commercial tolerance for bank angle is +/- 5 degrees, about the only possible thing you can shoot for that meets all the requirements is 55 +/- 5 degrees.
 
Given that the PTS says "at least 50 degrees" for steep turns, and 91.307(c) says you need a parachute to go over 60 degrees (note that there is no requirement to go over 60 in this maneuver), and the commercial tolerance for bank angle is +/- 5 degrees, about the only possible thing you can shoot for that meets all the requirements is 55 +/- 5 degrees.

ill have to get out my protractor. thanks Ron
 
Given that the PTS says "at least 50 degrees" for steep turns, and 91.307(c) says you need a parachute to go over 60 degrees (note that there is no requirement to go over 60 in this maneuver), and the commercial tolerance for bank angle is +/- 5 degrees, about the only possible thing you can shoot for that meets all the requirements is 55 +/- 5 degrees.


Close!

91.307
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

Looking at 91.307 - is a CFI a crewmember? It is a training flight after all, and a CFI is required for training. And of course (d)(2) says other flight manuevers required by regulations. Steep turns over 50 degrees are required under part 61. So do you really need a parachute?
 
Looking at 91.307 - is a CFI a crewmember? It is a training flight after all, and a CFI is required for training. And of course (d)(2) says other flight maneuvers required by regulations. Steep turns over 50 degrees are required under part 61. So do you really need a parachute?
But other than aerobatic maneuvers, there are none which require 60 degrees of bank or beyond. I think this rule was written with commercial maneuvers in mind.
 
But other than aerobatic maneuvers, there are none which require 60 degrees of bank or beyond. I think this rule was written with commercial maneuvers in mind.

But the PTS doesn't say you CAN'T do it. Remember, almost every reg is written as things you CAN NOT do. And since the PTS does not say do not exceed 60 degrees...
 
Given that the PTS says "at least 50 degrees" for steep turns, and 91.307(c) says you need a parachute to go over 60 degrees (note that there is no requirement to go over 60 in this maneuver), and the commercial tolerance for bank angle is +/- 5 degrees, about the only possible thing you can shoot for that meets all the requirements is 55 +/- 5 degrees.

Ron,

I took the wording of the PTS to mean that the selected angle of bank must be at least 50 degrees, and the standard is to maintain +/-5 degrees from that selected angle.

This did change fairly recently, didn't it? I seem to recall that comm standard was 60 when I got my private about 4 years ago. If so, was there an NPRM or any sort of explanation given for the change?

Good point on the chutes, Ed. I should probably read the entire reg next time. :yes:
 
Can you really tell the difference visually between 55 and 60 degrees? I know I can't. I had a CFI once tell me he could--I took a picture with my digital camera. We landed and I printed it out. Measured it with a protractor--He was way off.
 
Close!

91.307
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

Looking at 91.307 - is a CFI a crewmember? It is a training flight after all, and a CFI is required for training. And of course (d)(2) says other flight manuevers required by regulations. Steep turns over 50 degrees are required under part 61. So do you really need a parachute?
Steep turns over 50 degrees are required by the PTS, but steep turns over 60 degrees are not. Parachute required. Further, unless you're doing the maneuvers in a DC-3 or a LearJet, either the trainee or the CFI is not a required crewmember -- only one pilot required.
 
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But other than aerobatic maneuvers, there are none which require 60 degrees of bank or beyond. I think this rule was written with commercial maneuvers in mind.
Since no commercial maneuvers require more than 60 bank, I think it was written with the spins required for initial CFI-A/G in mind -- the only maneuver required for any certificate or rating which as defined in the relevant PTS would otherwise require parachutes.
 
...about the only possible thing you can shoot for that meets all the requirements is 55 +/- 5 degrees.

Since it says "at least 50," that includes 50, meaning you could "shoot for" 50 +/- 5 and be OK, right? (It doesn't say "more than 50.") College taught us 50, that's the way we did 'em and passed our commercial tests.

It would be handy if the PTS would just pick a darn number... :dunno:
 
Since it says "at least 50," that includes 50, meaning you could "shoot for" 50 +/- 5 and be OK, right? (It doesn't say "more than 50.") College taught us 50, that's the way we did 'em and passed our commercial tests.
I suppose that's true, but every instructor I know teaches, and every examiner I know asks for, 55.

It would be handy if the PTS would just pick a darn number... :dunno:
I suppose you want the FAR's to make sense, too...:rofl:
 
Thanks, Kent.

I didn't know I'd have to download and install another program. I love free enterprise but it appears both major players don't like to play well with each other's applications.
Finally looked at the software. I did a search and found the listed UND items. Then I started to register. I see they require a credit card for even obtaining free items. Why would this be necessary??? Geeze!
 
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