Staring Tailwheel Endorsement

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
I made some calls around to different FBO's and I'll be starting my tailwheel enforsement this coming Friday! I'm pretty excited about it. We'll be flying in an Cessna 120.

I'm a private pilot and coming up on 120 hours.

For those of you that have it, about how many hours should I expect?
 
Think about how long it took you to first solo.

That said all the ones I inked I also soloed, inking it without letting you solo is a bit different.
 
I think I had 7.5 hours when I got my endorsement. I also had a decently long cross country thrown in there.

There was a point where I couldn't get handle the idea of the tail coming up on takeoff. I took a week to ponder things and once I reconciled it in my mind, the training went very smoothly.

Have fun!
 
Cessna 120.... stay off the brakes :)
 
Got mine 2 years ago in 4.5 hours. Honestly I was planning on 10. Aeronca Chief 11CC. Great fun.

The big question is do you have a TW you can fly after the training and solo? I flew 34 hours last year in a J5 hoping it will be more than that this year.
 
IIRC, about 8 hours including one near excursion into the weeds.

Cheers
 
Tom-D said:
Cessna 120.... stay off the brakes :)
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Nearly any GA trainer operating on most any charted runway in the US...stay off the brakes.
 
I started my training from the very beginning in a J-3 Cub. Let's leave off my first half-hour introductory flight since my next logbook entry was almost a year later. I had 13.5 hours when I was signed off to solo and started my nose wheel transition. Given that you don't have to learn how to fly, just how to taxi, takeoff, and land, it should take less than that, but be patient whether it takes 2 hours or 20. The main thing is to fly all the way to the tiedown and not taxi faster than a brisk walking pace. Oh, and don't try any of this on your first day, except maybe the "dismount" technique:

 
azpilot said:
Is the propensity to nose over really that bad?
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Nose over?

I'm saying for most all GA trainers you shouldn't need the brakes on the runway in the first place.
 
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azpilot said:
Is the propensity to nose over really that bad?
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It varies with the aircraft and the speed.

At high speeds, one can generally apply a lot of braking and up elevator takes care of any tendency to nose over. In fact, it's possible to skid the tires without nosing over in many planes.

The danger is if the brakes are held too long or applied at too slow a speed. In that case the elevator is ineffective at keeping the tail down and there is a "tipping point" where over she goes.

But it was not something I spent a lot of time worrying about in my Citabrias. Shorter planes with smaller elevators could be more of a problem in that regard.
 
You will enjoy the heck out of it. Pre 1948 models had the main gear 3 inches rearward from the latr models. The earlier models are more difficult and more prone to nosing over.
 
Regarding the brakes, I've always thought that overheating them by overuse was a bigger concern than nosing over. And that's if you have a plane with good enough brakes to bother with in the first place.
 
How many hours for a tailwheel endorsement depends on the pilot. Airspeed control and rudder control are the focus and some guys are better at it than others. Don't worry about hard braking and nosing over. You aren't going to do any short field exhibitions in a 120.
 
Took me about 10 hours, but it was very spread out over 2 summers.
 
DFH65 said:
The big question is do you have a TW you can fly after the training and solo? I flew 34 hours last year in a J5 hoping it will be more than that this year.
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That's the question I asked myself when i started my t/w. I wasn't going to have to access very frequently so I didn't finish. Hopefully later.
 
FastEddieB said:
But it was not something I spent a lot of time worrying about in my Citabrias. Shorter planes with smaller elevators could be more of a problem in that regard.
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That is an interesting statement only because the few cases I am personally familiar with involving a prop strike from the pilot being too aggressive with brakes were Citabrias.
 
Nosing over an early 120/140 that was made before the main gear was moved forward 3" is not uncommon. Some googling can probably turn up several youtubes of this happening.

That said, these planes are very docile and unless you are very short, you will be able to see over the nose, which makes it quicker to get accustomed to. The tailwheel rigging needs to be right on it though or it will be squirrelly.
 
azpilot said:
Is the propensity to nose over really that bad?
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I trained a guy for his private in a C-150. As soon as he had his ticket he bought a Luscombe. On his first landing he hit the brakes and flipped over. Brakes are for taxiing. A pilot who needs to use the brakes to slow down is landing too fast in the first place.

Bob
 
I learned to fly in a '46 Cessna 120. The original GrabYear brakes were not-so-hot-so. But the old man swapped them out for Cleveland disks - Nice.

If you want to stop with the tail in the air, keep some power in so you can set the tail down with less of a bang.

The shortcoming of the 120 is it just doesn't have a lot of poop if you are near gross (and you are always near gross). So, if you are doing stop and go's, use LOTS of brake so you get stopped short and have a decent amount of runway for the Go. Also, in a stiff crosswind, I used to like to do wheel landings and steer with the brakes.
 
FastEddieB said:
In the tailwheel transition courses I taught, 5 hours almost always got it done.
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I had like 6 hours of instruction in the 120 before I was aloud to solo it. It's no big deal once you get used to it, the first time you land one is, enlightening though.
 
Just make sure you get some crosswind practice. Thats where people have problems.
 
Yes, landing in a cross wind takes practice. Landing In a high, gusty or variable cross wind takes practice and PRAYER. Don't let that scare you though. Rather, let it challenge you! The challenge will lead you to practice, and practicing anything makes you better at it.
 
I have a 1946 140 with the original gear, and no extenders. According to some, it should have been balled up years ago! Some instructors complained on the first year model, 1946, and Cessna helped make the rumor worse by making an optional wheel extender. This was a flat piece of metal that extends the axle forward I believe 3 inches. In my opinion, the extender is a waste of metal and should be removed from any plane that has them. I've flown 140s with and without them, and the ones with have a lot of unnecessary weight on the tail. This is a hot issue on the 120/140 forum and always will be. Some people like training wheels! In 1947 Cessna swept the gear forward, so you should NEVER see extenders on any plane other than a 1946. If so, it's not legal and will cause real issues with the plane.

I can tell you I don't use brakes often, but when I do I'm gentle, and make sure the yoke is back in my gut. This is true of all tailwheel planes though, so nothing unusual. Only once did I make the tail come up when braking and that was on purpose to see how easy it was to do. It wasn't that hard, but it wouldn't ever happen by surprise.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Just make sure you get some crosswind practice. Thats where people have problems.
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Indeed



Here's a few points I'm sure to hit before I put my name and numbers under someone's tailwheel skills

3 point, power on and off
2 point power on and off
Cross wind, at least to max demo
Go arounds
Tailwind landings
Stalls and falling leaf stalls, couple spins if approved
Hard and soft field ops.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Some people like training wheels!
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To wit:

30996361391_01533cfdd9_z.jpg
 
azpilot said:
I made some calls around to different FBO's and I'll be starting my tailwheel enforsement this coming Friday! I'm pretty excited about it. We'll be flying in an Cessna 120.

I'm a private pilot and coming up on 120 hours.

For those of you that have it, about how many hours should I expect?
Click to expand...

Where are you doing this?
 
FastEddieB said:
To wit:

30996361391_01533cfdd9_z.jpg
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Lolz, and to that I answer with this


Both about the same price, I question anyone mental fitness if they would take a re-warmed mooney over a NXT. Frankly the NXT is probably one of the all time best "new" aircraft, what a machine!
 
James331 said:
Nose over?

I'm saying for most all GA trainers you shouldn't need the brakes on the runway in the first place.
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OK, I misunderstood. I've just heard stories of people hitting the brakes too hard in a taildragger and having a prop strike as a result.
 
MBDiagMan said:
You will enjoy the heck out of it. Pre 1948 models had the main gear 3 inches rearward from the latr models. The earlier models are more difficult and more prone to nosing over.
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Looks like this one is a 1946 model.
 
DFH65 said:
The big question is do you have a TW you can fly after the training and solo?
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I rent. The FBO I'll be flying at has the 120 I'll be learning in, plus a Citabria. For me, I just like having goals. The tw training is just another stepping stone after getting my private. I fly for fun, and this seems like a fun thing to do.
 
You might like the attached file. I soloed in a 140 my Dad had back in the late 70's. Shortly after he bought a Swift and I ended up with over 100 hours in it. I instructed in a 140 some in the 80's and about 500 hours worth in PA-11's. Strange thing my Dad bought another 140 a few years ago and it seams to have much better directional control vs the one he had in the 70's. Have fun
 

Attachments

  • Operation Manual for Cessna 120 140.pdf
    3.2 MB · Views: 5
Plano Pilot said:
You might like the attached file. I soloed in a 140 my Dad had back in the late 70's. Shortly after he bought a Swift and I ended up with over 100 hours in it. I instructed in a 140 some in the 80's and about 500 hours worth in PA-11's. Strange thing my Dad bought another 140 a few years ago and it seams to have much better directional control vs the one he had in the 70's. Have fun
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It seems to be incomplete - it's missing the page where it says to never use the brakes. :rolleyes:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
It seems to be incomplete - it's missing the page where it says to never use the brakes. :rolleyes:
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Yea I so not remember using them much even in the 70's with a 2200 foot strip. When I was instructing in the Cubs we had 1200x14 or so of paved with 500 of grass on each end and allot of grass on the sides. When the students could consistently keep the Cub on the pavement they were ready for solo.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
It seems to be incomplete - it's missing the page where it says to never use the brakes. :rolleyes:
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you're miss it too, if were a common sense thing.
Remember its about 20 grand now to rebuild a C-85 if you can find the parts.
 
A half an hour taxiing in wind should suffice (provided you haven't forgotten that you need to use both the pedals and the stick/yoke for ground operations). Then it's all a matter of mastering the landings. Once the wheels are off the grounds, taildraggers pretty much are the same as anything else. You'll do normal landings (crosswinds as you're ready) and wheel landings.
 
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