STAR (via Kayoh Five) into ILS Rwy 20R at KSNA...

[dtvonly]

Hi. I can understand how to fly the STAR and ILS Rwy 20R plates individually. However, I can not see where to start my ILS approach into KSNA Rwy 20R, from looking at the STAR. There is no IAF on the STAR (via Kayoh Five) diagram. Please "bring me in". Thank you.

 

[NJP_MAN]

"At Kayoh intersection, expect vectors to final approach course."

 

[MAKG1]

And when you fly it, if there is any doubt, ask.

A few weeks ago, flying into KOAK, ATC rerouted me in flight onto the PANOCHE THREE arrival to SUNOL intersection. I called them two minutes from SUNOL and asked "what next." The answer: "intercept the localizer." Not even a vector, and it's not entirely consistent with the IAP. So, I read back "direct NAGVY and intercept" (which is on the localizer course).

They were fine with that, and cleared me for the ILS shortly after, but I really should have asked earlier.

 

[BigBadLou]

I concur, normally RV.
But if you're asking how to correctly transition without ATC, you'd need to navigate to the IAF on the approach plate.
And looking at the plate, this is a good one (as in: a good riddle).
At this time, I am not sure I would be able to quickly decide how to transition to the IAP correctly. With an IFR approved GPS, you can punch in the IAF SAGER but if we're talking no-GPS then I don't see any good feeder routes (I'd expect one from the Paradise VOR) and the plate does not say "radar required".
I guess one could cross KAYOH and then turn NW toward the IAF and maybe use the Pomona R144 to navigate to the IAF while cross-checking the Loc.

I am at work so I don't have much time to ponder this. Which is troubling me because I should be able to quickly determine a safe and correct route.
I'll see what y'all come up with instead.

 

[MAKG1]

The PDZ is not a feeder. There is one from SLI.

Another possibility is that the arrival crosses the localizer course, and the back course can be used to find SAGER and then perform the charted course reversal. And that's in protected airspace as long as the approach doesn't have a maximum altitude.

 

[coma24]

The STAR doesn't state vectors from KAYOH. The STAR terminates at SLI.

SLI is a feeder for the ILS RWY 20R approach.

Boom, there's your lost comms route.

In terms of what you're actually going to get, it'll be vectors well before that point, joining the localizer from the east. Get ready for a slam dunk. The ILS into SNA and the VOR-A into SMO are probably the hardest 2 approaches in Socal to vector as they require split-second timing (relatively speaking).

 

[MAKG1]

The STAR doesn't state vectors from KAYOH. The STAR terminates at SLI.

SLI is a feeder for the ILS RWY 20R approach.

Boom, there's your lost comms route.

In terms of what you're actually going to get, it'll be vectors well before that point, joining the localizer from the east. Get ready for a slam dunk. The ILS into SNA and the VOR-A into SMO are probably the hardest 2 approaches in Socal to vector as they require split-second timing (relatively speaking).

Depends on the clearance. KAYOH FIVE is actually designed for arrivals into KLGB. I'd expect a clearance just as far as KAYOH. But if it didn't specify an endpoint, you do get to go all the way to SLI.

 

[coma24]

dtvonly, don't feel bad, btw, none of the last 4 newly-minted IR pilots I've spoken to knew that feeders existed, how to find them on a chart, or that their job is to link the enroute structure with IAFs. In fact, I've requested two approaches from a feeder before and even ATC didn't have a clue what I was talking about. "You can't fly it from there, sir, you need to go to an IAF to fly the approach." *sigh*

 

[coma24]

MAKG1, I agree that in a radar environment, you're going to get pulled off the arrival right around KAYOH. However, the OP was asking how to fly it in lieu of vectors and missed the significance of the feeder. Other people seemed to think the procedure ended at KAYOH.

Regarding LGB vs SNA, the STAR is valid for both airports. In neither case, though, do aircraft actually end up at SLI. The arrival flow into LGB involves vectors to final shortly after KAYOH, same as SNA (although they're different vectors).

Edit: for evidence of this fact, pull up recent jet arrivals into LGB on flightaware coming from the NE. You'll see they're vectored pretty much over the top of SNA for a straight in to rwy 30 at LGB. We do the same thing on PilotEdge.

 

[MAKG1]

dtvonly, don't feel bad, btw, none of the last 4 newly-minted IR pilots I've spoken to knew that feeders existed, how to find them on a chart, or that their job is to link the enroute structure with IAFs. In fact, I've requested two approaches from a feeder before and even ATC didn't have a clue what I was talking about. "You can't fly it from there, sir, you need to go to an IAF to fly the approach." *sigh*

That's because the feeders are not part of the approach, regardless of what Foreflight (or Garmin) says. Treat it as part of your enroute or arrival, and ATC will understand you better.

 

[coma24]

*spits out coffee*

The 5 segments of an approach are the feeder, initial, intermediate and missed, no?

Garmin does NOT include the feeder as an IAF for approaches and I never said anything about ForeFlight. This isn't about electronic depictions, it's about what is included at part of an approach. You can absolutely be cleared for an approach at an IAF, ie, "cleared direct SLI, cross SLI at or above [MVA], cleared ILS RWY 20R approach." (although the guffaws of laughter would be loud and voluminous if ask for this at SNA on a normal day).

Don't get me wrong, if I was on a random route somewhere, I'd ask for direct to the IAF/IF or vectors, but in my case a while ago, my route took me over the feeder and was the last point in my cleared route. It would have been a great time for the clearance. Instead, he felt he had to clear me to the IAF, thinking it was not flyable from the feeder fix.

 

[flyingron]

You've lost me. What feeder to an approach doesn't lead you to some point on the approach (like the IAF) that you can commence the approach from. What would be the point of them if not? The SLI 049 radial fees you right in to the IAF at SAGER. I agree with COMA, you can be cleared for the approach as specified.

Can't be flying this one anyhow as there's no way I'm going to be doing 210 at KAYOH.

 

[MAKG1]

*spits out coffee*

The 5 segments of an approach are the feeder, initial, intermediate and missed, no?

Garmin does NOT include the feeder as an IAF for approaches and I never said anything about ForeFlight. This isn't about electronic depictions, it's about what is included at part of an approach. You can absolutely be cleared for an approach at an IAF, ie, "cleared direct SLI, cross SLI at or above [MVA], cleared ILS RWY 20R approach." (although the guffaws of laughter would be loud and voluminous if ask for this at SNA on a normal day).

Don't get me wrong, if I was on a random route somewhere, I'd ask for direct to the IAF/IF or vectors, but in my case a while ago, my route took me over the feeder and was the last point in my cleared route. It would have been a great time for the clearance. Instead, he felt he had to clear me to the IAF, thinking it was not flyable from the feeder fix.

You forgot "final."

There is a difference between what ATC clears you for and what the pilot books say. You will not likely be cleared for a feeder as part of the approach clearance, but rather as part of your enroute, if at all. More often than not, ATC clears me direct all the way to the IF (when giving the approach clearance -- like arriving at Palo Alto, it's almost always "Proceed direct DOCAL cross DOCAL at or above 4000 cleared GPS 31 approach") unless I ask them to do otherwise.

Try selecting an approach on your Garmin (IFR), or on Foreflight. Not all the selections are IAFs, and those that are are labeled as such. The remaining ones are "vectors to final" and the various feeders.

 

[coma24]

Sorry, was typing in a hurry and neglected to include final, obviously.

We're in violent agreement that in a radar environment, if you're pulled off your route, vectors to final are normal, or direct to an IF for an RNAV. I will double check on the Garmin IAF/feeder options, my recollection was that it was IAFs only. Controllers are human and knowledge is perishable. The number of instances where you fly a full approach from a feeder in a radar environment are few, and as a result, the knowledge fades away.

It's the same deal with cruise clearances, phraseology for VFR on top or through clearances. When I last requested a through clearance, the trainee controller had no idea what I was asking about, then the instructor kicked in at which point I thought I'd be golden. "You want what now?" he asks. I request the through clearance so I can do a full stop taxi back for night currency rather than a normal missed. He was equally baffled and said, "just report on the missed, understand there will be a brief delay." (Of course, executing the missed from 0 AGL doesn't guarantee much, but it was VMC).

 

[coma24]

"At Kayoh intersection, expect vectors to final approach course."

That's actually not what it says. It takes you from KAYOH to SLI.

 

[NJP_MAN]

That's actually not what it says. It takes you from KAYOH to SLI.

You are correct. I didn't feel like typing it all out, but wanted to point OP in the right direction. Where to read. I should have ended my original sentence with "..."

 

[luvflyin]

dtvonly, don't feel bad, btw, none of the last 4 newly-minted IR pilots I've spoken to knew that feeders existed, how to find them on a chart, or that their job is to link the enroute structure with IAFs. In fact, I've requested two approaches from a feeder before and even ATC didn't have a clue what I was talking about. "You can't fly it from there, sir, you need to go to an IAF to fly the approach." *sigh*

I *sigh* to. Pilots have the AIM. Controllers have the 7110. It's all right there.

 

[kayoh190]

Can't be flying this one anyhow as there's no way I'm going to be doing 210 at KAYOH.

Don't worry, ATC will slow you to 190 at KAYOH anyway.

Or at least that's what they did back when I was operating out of LGB and SNA. And thus my screen name was born.

 

[luvflyin]

*spits out coffee*

The 5 segments of an approach are the feeder, initial, intermediate and missed, no?

Garmin does NOT include the feeder as an IAF for approaches and I never said anything about ForeFlight. This isn't about electronic depictions, it's about what is included at part of an approach. You can absolutely be cleared for an approach at an IAF, ie, "cleared direct SLI, cross SLI at or above [MVA], cleared ILS RWY 20R approach." (although the guffaws of laughter would be loud and voluminous if ask for this at SNA on a normal day).

Don't get me wrong, if I was on a random route somewhere, I'd ask for direct to the IAF/IF or vectors, but in my case a while ago, my route took me over the feeder and was the last point in my cleared route. It would have been a great time for the clearance. Instead, he felt he had to clear me to the IAF, thinking it was not flyable from the feeder fix.

Yup. An aircraft only need be "Established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure" to be cleared for the approach. In this case an aircraft on the KAYOH5 can simply be "cleared for the approach." Legally. Ain't never going to happen in airspace that busy though.

 

[luvflyin]

Sorry, was typing in a hurry and neglected to include final, obviously.

We're in violent agreement that in a radar environment, if you're pulled off your route, vectors to final are normal, or direct to an IF for an RNAV. I will double check on the Garmin IAF/feeder options, my recollection was that it was IAFs only. Controllers are human and knowledge is perishable. The number of instances where you fly a full approach from a feeder in a radar environment are few, and as a result, the knowledge fades away.

It's the same deal with cruise clearances, phraseology for VFR on top or through clearances. When I last requested a through clearance, the trainee controller had no idea what I was asking about, then the instructor kicked in at which point I thought I'd be golden. "You want what now?" he asks. I request the through clearance so I can do a full stop taxi back for night currency rather than a normal missed. He was equally baffled and said, "just report on the missed, understand there will be a brief delay." (Of course, executing the missed from 0 AGL doesn't guarantee much, but it was VMC).

Through clearances. There's a relic. Not really a relic, they still exist. Cell phones pretty much made them not needed much anymore. I'm sure there is still a place or two where they are still used. But yeah, it'd be a head scratcher just about anywhere else.

 

[Bobcat1]

The STAR doesn't state vectors from KAYOH. The STAR terminates at SLI.

SLI is a feeder for the ILS RWY 20R approach.

Boom, there's your lost comms route.

In terms of what you're actually going to get, it'll be vectors well before that point, joining the localizer from the east. Get ready for a slam dunk. The ILS into SNA and the VOR-A into SMO are probably the hardest 2 approaches in Socal to vector as they require split-second timing (relatively speaking).

And if you really don't like the slam dunk and/or can't make it down, you'll get vectors through the LOC with a right 270 to join the approach. Not a problem.

 

[noahfong]

"At Kayoh intersection, expect vectors to final approach course."

Without getting picky about the completeness of the quote, NJP_MAN is right. The intent of the arrival (and every one I've flown) is to get you into the vicinity of the airport and ATC will direct you the rest of the way. If you were to fly this arrival to SNA, you would get vectors well before you get to SLI. These arrivals are not meant to be flown "full approach" style.

For all practical purposes, unless you fly something that goes high and fast (think jet) you will not be given a STAR on a clearance (even if you were to file it).

If you are on the arrival and lose comms and need to fly the ILS, I suggest navigating to the IAF in the most expeditious way. If you have GPS, go direct SAGER. If you are \A, direct PDZ and R256 to join the localizer. Now, some of you will scream "feeder from SLI!". Well, I think ATC will not EXPECT you to go west just to reverse and fly a PT (you are coming from the east, right? Why zig-zag?). At least, that's how I would do it.

 

[MAKG1]

For all practical purposes, unless you fly something that goes high and fast (think jet) you will not be given a STAR on a clearance (even if you were to file it).

Not my experience. I seem to get STARs whenever there is one nearby. I seldom file them.

It SUCKS to fly the Point Reyes Arrival from Napa to Reid, but that's what they gave me. Far out of the way.

I guess I could file "NO STAR," but it normally isn't that big an issue. I really didn't think ATC would assign that on that particular flight.

The more recent STAR I got was not in my clearance, but rather amended in flight. To exactly what I had been flying before (It was the Panoche 3 Arrival into Oakland).

 

[noahfong]

Not my experience. I seem to get STARs whenever there is one nearby. I seldom file them.

Interesting. I stand corrected. Thanks.