Stalls - Nervousness

CC268

CC268

Final Approach
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CC268
Hey guys,

Today I experienced my first very bumpy ride! Big up drafts and down drafts...I didn't mind it much though and still felt comfortable...although the turbulence caught me off guard here and there and scared me a bit.

Anyways...we did quite a few power on and power off stalls today as I told my instructor I wanted to get really comfortable with stall recovery...stalls really make me nervous. I keep thinking that we might accidentally end up in a spin and be done for...I know my 1979 C172 is rated for spins, but you have to be in the Utility category...I haven't actually looked at the weight and balance in the handbook but my guess is that with two people and full fuel we may not be in the Utility category (but I need to confirm this).

I guess it just freaks me out that we might stall and then one wing drops and bam were in a spin of death! If we aren't in the Utility category we may not be able to recover from a spin...I always make sure to keep us coordinated with right rudder but sometimes when the plane stalls it likes to dip a wing momentarily and it kind of freaks me out.

So what are your guys' thoughts on this?

Oh...we did some flying with the foggles on...I do okay with the foggles in smooth air but trying to maintain altitude and heading and attitude in turbulence is fricken hard with foggles!
 
Spins in the Cessnas that are rated for such activities are usually a non-issue, and quite fun once you realize you aren't going to die. Don't go spinning with passenger or cargo in the back, and I doubt you'll have any issues.

NOTE: I've only ever spun a C152, so I can't tell you exactly on the weight and balance for spinning a C172 without doing the math myself. BUT, since you have these concerns, why not run a W/B for yourself to see what you come up with? If your weight and C/G are appropriate for spins per the POH, you have little to worry about!
 
CC268 said:
Hey guys,

Today I experienced my first very bumpy ride! Big up drafts and down drafts...I didn't mind it much though and still felt comfortable...although the turbulence caught me off guard here and there and scared me a bit.

Anyways...we did quite a few power on and power off stalls today as I told my instructor I wanted to get really comfortable with stall recovery...stalls really make me nervous. I keep thinking that we might accidentally end up in a spin and be done for...I know my 1979 C172 is rated for spins, but you have to be in the Utility category...I haven't actually looked at the weight and balance in the handbook but my guess is that with two people and full fuel we may not be in the Utility category (but I need to confirm this).

I guess it just freaks me out that we might stall and then one wing drops and bam were in a spin of death! If we aren't in the Utility category we may not be able to recover from a spin...I always make sure to keep us coordinated with right rudder but sometimes when the plane stalls it likes to dip a wing momentarily and it kind of freaks me out.

So what are your guys' thoughts on this?

Oh...we did some flying with the foggles on...I do okay with the foggles in smooth air but trying to maintain altitude and heading and attitude in turbulence is fricken hard with foggles!
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I believe 172's are rated for spins in both the normal and utility category.
 
I don't like stalling at all. But I really love bumpy flights.
 
Try this next time you are out with an instructor who is comfortable with spins. Stall it with with full rudder deflection when the wing starts to drop just let go of everything.

I think you will be surprised just how stable a 172 is.
 
Besides, IME a stall is so far away from a spin unless you go deep into it and uncoordinated when you do. I highly recommend spins, it makes stalls seem like a landing flare in comparison. YMMV!
 
The best way to stop being afraid of spins is to do some. Check your Flight Manual to see exactly what it says about spins and on your next flight ask your CFI to make sure the aircraft meets the requirements and do a couple of spin entries and recoveries. I am assuming that your instructor is not afraid to do this(some are).
I would suggest that you work up to a full spin by doing entries with an immediate recovery until you are comfortable. Then do a 1/2 turn with recovery, then 1 full turn with recovery. This will allow you to see that the aircraft must be MADE to spin and will quit spinning when allowed to.
Good Luck.
 
I asked my instructor about 5 times if he is comfortable doing spins...he said yes...I said are you sure??? He has never spun this specific 172 I am flying but he didn't seem to be scared of it at all...but man I'm sure it would scare the crap out of me....but I told him I want to do spin recovery at some point.
 
cyclepro said:
I believe 172's are rated for spins in both the normal and utility category.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that's true. One plane I rent is a Cessna 172N, and the POH for that model states under the "normal category" that:

"Aerobatic maneuvers, including spins, are not approved".

The same limitation is found in the information manual for a 172P that I rent. Regardless, both prohibit baggage and rear seat passengers for spins. The W/B issue could be crucial here. I'm 190lbs on the flight line, and an instructor I've flown with is better than 220lbs. We'd need to leave a LOT of fuel on the ground to be in the utility category in the "N" model, whereas we have 100lbs of leeway in the "P" model, but still couldn't go full fuel and meet the 2100 lb limit for the utility category.

Regardless, these planes are pretty benign. They are hard to inadvertently spin, and when loaded within limits they will recover from a spin on their own in most cases.
 
Stalls at first are an adrenaline thing for sure.... but with practice, become a simpler thing...

Study your books about this maneuver. Key things to remember... your feet and the rudder.

As you slow down, your ailerons loose effectiveness, but your rudder is still in the game. Always keep in mind, it's important to maintain coordinated flight with the rudder throughout the stall. If one of the wings starts to drop, apply the correct amount of rudder to maintain being level. Not too much, but just enough.

Then once you feel the stall buffet, recover by applying power and simultaneously push the yoke forward to return to level flight with minimum altitude loss.

At first, your actions are going to be on the slower and timid side. But as you get comfortable, you'll do them faster and with athority, minimizing both loss of altitude and chances of entering a spin.

CC268 said:
Oh...we did some flying with the foggles on...I do okay with the foggles in smooth air but trying to maintain altitude and heading and attitude in turbulence is fricken hard with foggles!
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Because being new to this, it's easy to overcorrect and increase the difficulty.

Keep in mind your aircraft was built with stability in mind. If a pocket of turbulence causes one wing to rise, you don't need to jerk the yoke in the opposite direction. When driving your car/truck, ever drift to the edge and wind up on the rumble strip or slightly off the pavement? Did you jerk the steering wheel in response? No, you eased it a bit and gently returned to your lane. Same thing with flying in turbulent weather. You only need to input just enough correction when the aircraft doesn't return to the desired attitude (or altitude) on it's own.

Remember, it's a light finger and thumb touch on the yoke. And if you're white knuckling the yoke, you will overcorrect and just increase your difficulty in controlling the aircraft.
 
Coloradokevin said:
I'm not sure that's true. One plane I rent is a Cessna 172N, and the POH for that model states under the "normal category" that:

"Aerobatic maneuvers, including spins, are not approved".

The same limitation is found in the information manual for a 172P that I rent. Regardless, both prohibit baggage and rear seat passengers for spins. The W/B issue could be crucial here. I'm 190lbs on the flight line, and an instructor I've flown with is better than 220lbs. We'd need to leave a LOT of fuel on the ground to be in the utility category in the "N" model, whereas we have 100lbs of leeway in the "P" model, but still couldn't go full fuel and meet the 2100 lb limit for the utility category.

Regardless, these planes are pretty benign. They are hard to inadvertently spin, and when loaded within limits they will recover from a spin on their own in most cases.
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You're probably right. The 172sp I did my training in was rated for both
 
A good video for you CC. Demonstrates a "Falling Leaf" stall, but also how it's all about the rudder and not the ailerons, and then when you remove the back pressure, you return to stability.


 
You will get used to them. The 172 stalls are more mushy than anything else. I'm not spin rated, but I did very much appreciate the spin my instructor did for me one time. Sure helped take a lot of the nervousness I had about stalls.

My first stall in the bonanza reawakened that fear. As before, quality time with a good CFI solved that problem.
 
Yea I will mention the falling leaf stall to my instructor...I guess if I don't do it now I can always do spin recovery with an aerobatic instructor...but I think I could do it with my current instructor...I just need to make sure this 172N can do them...
 
CC268 said:
Yea I will mention the falling leaf stall to my instructor...I guess if I don't do it now I can always do spin recovery with an aerobatic instructor...but I think I could do it with my current instructor...I just need to make sure this 172N can do them...
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Again, it's merely a W/B problem. How much do you weigh, how much does your instructor weigh, and how much fuel will you carry? The POH also prohibits rear passengers or baggage when spinning, and common sense dictates securing loose objects.

The 172N manual I have says you need to be in the utility category for spins, and places the top of that range for the "N" model at 2,000 lbs.
 
That wasn't meant to get you to do a Falling Leaf as much as to show you that the proper control in the stall is with the rudder.

Then recovery by releasing the backpressure.
 
Stalls in a Cessna are benign once you get your mind around'em. In other words, once you understand why it's stalling and how the airplane will react, even if a wing drops. Stalls are fun. Do them often, even after you get your PPL.
 
Oh haha alright yea I definitely know that the ailerons are a pro spin input...my mind always tells me to throw aileron in to correct for the dropped wing but I have to remember to use rudder!
 
Getting your new iPad and mount in front of you will help overcome your fear.
 
KA550 said:
Getting your new iPad and mount in front of you will help overcome your fear.
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Something like this?

crossroads_gps_installation.jpg
 
Go spin the snot out of the plane, have him do a few different spins, then have you recover, then you enter and r cover from the spin, then recover on a heading.

Also do falling leaf stalls.

Frankly it's actually quite fun
 
CC268 said:
Yea I will mention the falling leaf stall to my instructor...I guess if I don't do it now I can always do spin recovery with an aerobatic instructor...but I think I could do it with my current instructor...I just need to make sure this 172N can do them...
Click to expand...

When I was doing my check ride my DEP decided to show me a falling leaf in a PA28. I had just done unusual attitude recoveries, he told me you did great, but bet you did not know you did not need to do anything in this plane. So he took us up to about 3000 feet, stalled the plane and just let go of the controls. I remained hands off. The plane just repeated corrected itself regaining level flight on its own after losing between 300 and 400 feet of altitude. Then it would stall again, and repeated the exact same thing. He let the plane do this about 3 times, and we then went back home. It was an interesting lesson.

Another fun this to do is much along with the stall horn sounding. you can usually maintain altitude at a speed actually below the official stall speed.
 
I guess I'm just a little worried about spinning a 172N since you have to be in the utility category to spin...seems like it would only be safe to do stalls if you were in the utility category as well? If you end up in a spin on accident then your done for you know.

I'm gonna have to check the weight and balance next time but maybe we should only be practicing the stall if we're well within the utility category?
 
CC268 said:
I guess I'm just a little worried about spinning a 172N since you have to be in the utility category to spin...seems like it would only be safe to do stalls if you were in the utility category as well? If you end up in a spin on accident then your done for you know.

I'm gonna have to check the weight and balance next time but maybe we should only be practicing the stall if we're well within the utility category?
Click to expand...

Quick math off of the top of my head would suggest that most of the Cessna 172s can do spins with two FAA standard adult passengers up front, full fuel, and no rear cargo (or backseat passengers). Honestly, you almost have to try to make these planes spin. I know that's true from my spin experience with the C152, and stalls seem even more benign in the C172. Regardless, while I would never advocate intentionally entering a spin if you were slightly overweight for the category specified by the manufacturer, I would also suggest that you'd still probably be fine in the even that you and your instructor were heavier than FAA standard passengers.

For example, in the "N" model the utility category is 2,000 lbs. Our empty plane weighs 1498 lbs. I weigh 190 in my clothes, and lets pretend that my flight instructor is a standard 170 lbs. Add in 40 gals of fuel at 6lbs/gal, and we have 240lbs of fuel. Add that all up and we're 98 lbs overweight for spins in the "N" model, but 2 lbs underweight for spins in the "P" model (which specifies a utility category of 2,100 lbs).

Now, presumably you are burning fuel to taxi, takeoff, and get out to your practice area / altitude. So, even if you took off with full fuel, you won't be starting the exercise with full fuel. And, nothing says you need to start with full fuel.

Bottom Line?

1) Unless you and your instructor are both significantly larger than average, you can load these planes to be safe for spin practice, even under the lower utility category weights of the "N" model.

2) If you are just practicing stalls, you'll be just fine. It isn't likely that you'll put it into a spin, and it's still very likely that your instructor could get you out of a spin even if you were a couple of pounds heavy up front.

3) The more you practice any of this stuff, the less scary it becomes!
 
CC268 said:
I keep thinking that we might accidentally end up in a spin and be done for
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That's what your instructor is there for. The only way a student is going to spin me is if I deliberately let it happen without intervening.

CC268 said:
I guess it just freaks me out that we might stall and then one wing drops and bam were in a spin of death! If we aren't in the Utility category we may not be able to recover from a spin
Click to expand...

This is not quite true. Just because it's not certified for intentional spins in the normal category, does not mean spins are unrecoverable. A normal category airplane must demonstrate ability to recover from a one-turn spin within one additional turn.

Many student pilots have learned to fly and practiced numerous stalls in aircraft that are not approved for intentional spins. It's not something to be paranoid about.
 
dmspilot said:
That's what your instructor is there for. The only way a student is going to spin me is if I deliberately let it happen without intervening.



This is not quite true. Just because it's not certified for intentional spins in the normal category, does not mean spins are unrecoverable. A normal category airplane must demonstrate ability to recover from a one-turn spin within one additional turn.

Many student pilots have learned to fly and practiced numerous stalls in aircraft that are not approved for intentional spins. It's not something to be paranoid about.
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^^ Exactly!
 
Okay great guys thanks for the help!
 
Another thing people forget about spins, is the plane does not suddenly become a rock. Even at stall you do have some foward momentum, and most plane are extremely stable. Planes want to fly because of how they are designed, and most training planes are built to recover from a stall with little or no input. Most of the time if you just let got of the yolk, and add power (assuming a power off stall), a 172 will recover itself. To get a spin usually requires significant cross control, so you almost have to force the plane to spin.

I have never done a spin, and would actually like to try one.
 
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CC268 said:
I guess I'm just a little worried about spinning a 172N since you have to be in the utility category to spin...seems like it would only be safe to do stalls if you were in the utility category as well? If you end up in a spin on accident then your done for you know.

I'm gonna have to check the weight and balance next time but maybe we should only be practicing the stall if we're well within the utility category?
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I think you're confusing dipping a wing with a spin.

Dipping a wing is not prohibited and is easily recovered from well before developing into a spin. 172s really move slowly in this regard.

You can practice rudder action by just flying hands off in slow cruise.
 
Oh and when you and the instructor do spins cage the gyro on the attitude indicator. Lest you tumble it and it doesn't recover and your instructors dad who owns the plane becomes very unhappy. Ask me how I know. :)
 
Also you are not going to accidentally get in a spin.
If you are uncoordinated, you are going to get a wing drop.

If you are uncoordinated and intentionally stall the plane for the first time with someone in the back seat you are in for a wing drop.

This was first stall in a new to me plane. Wife filming in the back.
After the wing drops, the plane starts flying again with normal recovery procedures.
In the hot seat, it feels dramatic though.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Also you are not going to accidentally get in a spin.
If you are uncoordinated, you are going to get a wing drop.

If you are uncoordinated and intentionally stall the plane for the first time with someone in the back seat you are in for a wing drop.

This was first stall in a new to me plane. Wife filming in the back.
After the wing drops, the plane starts flying again with normal recovery procedures.
In the hot seat, it feels dramatic though.
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Wow that was a scary one!
 
CC268 said:
Wow that was a scary one!
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Doesn't look that scary to me. He doesn't get much over 30 deg bank. The airplane appears to have a pretty sharp stall break, but so does a 172.

These really aren't a big deal unless you add pro-spin inputs.
 
Interesting. My airplane likes to drop the left wing when it finally lets go. Sometimes the right wing will drop.

Did notice the pronounced buffet (bobbing)- good video.
 
CC268 said:
I guess I'm just a little worried about spinning a 172N since you have to be in the utility category to spin...seems like it would only be safe to do stalls if you were in the utility category as well? If you end up in a spin on accident then your done for you know.

I'm gonna have to check the weight and balance next time but maybe we should only be practicing the stall if we're well within the utility category?
Click to expand...

You have to get past your fear that entering a spin is an automatically fatal outcome. Especially in a 172.

As others have suggested have your instructor demonstrate a spin entry and recovery. Not just an incipient, but a fully developed spin. If you are concerned about doing that in a 172 they I suggest you seek out an aerobatic instructor with a plane and experience stalls and spins in that. As long as you are fearful of stalling the airplane you will never feel you are completely in control of it.

A spin is more disorienting than dangerous. Remember the descent rate in a spin is rather slow because the airplane remains stalled throughout. Most loss of control accidents due to disorientation are not spins but graveyard spiral dives, some of which result in in-flight break up of the airframe. Now that is something to be concerned about...
 
Not to worry you, CC268, but I wouldn't recommend going out in your 172 and practicing spins. It can be hard on some of the instruments. Stalls, though, are okay. Focus on keeping the airplane going straight. If the nose is very high, you can look out at the left wing and tell whether or not you are going straight. Practice with your CFI. You need to get comfortable with the entire envelope of your airplane. Just be sure you are practicing at a pretty good altitude. If you do get in an accidental spin, you can easily loose 1,000' or more during recovery.
 
Thanks guys I am sure I will get it sorted out...
 
I just got my PPL last year after about 6 months. Tell you that to this day practicing stalls as a low time pilot still gets me a bit nervous. But the 172 is such a stable platform that, if you inadvertently somehow screwed up and your instructor happened to be asleep at the controls, the plane warns you about a stall WAY ahead of time. The reed starts whistling, you get the buffet, and a wing starts to dip. Just stick to the PARE acronym and you'll be fine. Power idle, ailerons neutral, rudder opposite (to the spin), elevator neutral or slight nose down.

Falling leaf is a GREAT exercise if you're skittish about the stall.
 
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