You could fly 45KT with quite a bit of power, since stall speed is significantly reduced with power vs. without. Bush pilots often fly final in this 1.05Vso territory...although that is a highly skilled, advanced technique for serious short field operations. Not recommended for your average weekend pilot. Though fly a 45KT power off approach in a 152 and the results will not be pretty. I'm sure if he was flying 45KT, we was dragging it in with quite a bit of power. And who knows how accurate the ASI is in that particular airplane. Most people fly final about 10 KTS too fast for their loaded weight.
You could fly 45KT with quite a bit of power, since stall speed is significantly reduced with power vs. without. Bush pilots often fly final in this 1.05Vso territory...although that is a highly skilled, advanced technique for serious short field operations. Not recommended for your average weekend pilot. Though fly a 45KT power off approach in a 152 and the results will not be pretty. I'm sure if he was flying 45KT, we was dragging it in with quite a bit of power. And who knows how accurate the ASI is in that particular airplane. Most people fly final about 10 KTS too fast for their loaded weight.
dmspilot
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First rule whenever reading performance charts, read all the notes and conditions. I think you'll find the answer.
champ driver
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According to my book the stall speed for a C-152 is 48 and 43 kts flaps up and flaps down. Where does he get 35 kts from?
Flying at 45 kts is just too close to stall speed anywhere except level wings and short final in smooth air. There's almost no margin above stall speed at 45 kts, add in the higher stall speed in a turn and some gusty air and it's only a hair margin he's working with.
Go back and talk to him and explain how stall speed go's up in the turn and how a gust can leave him hanging by his prop. Then show him what the Cessna owners manual says about approach speeds and ask why he thinks he knows better than Cessna.
If that doesn't work, go to the instructor and talk to him, be polite and don't be argumentative with either of them. Tell them that you're worried about him and you don't want anyone to get hurt.
If that doesn't work, then all you can do is walk away, and don't fly with him, or let any of your friends fly with him too.
Think about how bad you would feel if he piled it in on a base to final turn and killed an innocent passenger, and never said a thing to try and help him.
Flying at 45 kts is just too close to stall speed anywhere except level wings and short final in smooth air. There's almost no margin above stall speed at 45 kts, add in the higher stall speed in a turn and some gusty air and it's only a hair margin he's working with.
Go back and talk to him and explain how stall speed go's up in the turn and how a gust can leave him hanging by his prop. Then show him what the Cessna owners manual says about approach speeds and ask why he thinks he knows better than Cessna.
If that doesn't work, go to the instructor and talk to him, be polite and don't be argumentative with either of them. Tell them that you're worried about him and you don't want anyone to get hurt.
If that doesn't work, then all you can do is walk away, and don't fly with him, or let any of your friends fly with him too.
Think about how bad you would feel if he piled it in on a base to final turn and killed an innocent passenger, and never said a thing to try and help him.
MAKG1
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It's 35 KIAS and 43 KCAS, at full flap. There is a lot of airspeed error near stall.
The situation evolved more or less like you wanted. Apparently, the "friend" was not happy, and neither was the instructor. But it's (IMO) a lot better than scraping up corpses. Of course, that's easy for me to say….
The situation evolved more or less like you wanted. Apparently, the "friend" was not happy, and neither was the instructor. But it's (IMO) a lot better than scraping up corpses. Of course, that's easy for me to say….
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
Might not be high enough. The way patterns are taught today in little airplanes, long airliner finals, if it gets a hair in its throat, your toast. Bad bad habit!
bullwinkle
Pattern Altitude
Yeah, grab the POH and find the listed approach speeds, and point them out to him.
45 knots is too slow in my CTSW, I'm *sure* it's too slow in a 150/152.
EDIT: Sorry, I got to this thread late and didn't see there was a second page.
You did the right thing, hopefully your buddy will realize that.
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vdehart
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I try to fly a tight enough pattern that all I have to do is pull power abeam the numbers and descend at approach speed. If you have to drag it in with power you're doing it wrong...
MAKG1
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FWIW, "dragging it in" means flying behind the power curve with a lot of power. It does not mean just using power above idle. Conventional "stabilized" approaches don't qualify.
A far-behind-the-power-curve approach is a really bad idea. A stabilized approach, not so (unless you're flying a radial or a POS that's likely to fail at any time).
Modern engine failures are much rarer than landing loss of control errors (even if you just count overruns), hence the recommendation to "stabilize" the approach with some power in.
The one exception is a short field approach into an obstructed field. Those are best done at idle. But not necessarily at idle over the entire approach.
Some airplanes fly like rocks with the power off.
Clip4
Final Approach
10 knots above stall? I wonder if this guy ever heard about wind shear? Yea, tell your club CFI.
tomf188
Pre-Flight
^^^^^
This.
You absolutely did the right thing, especially if he is a member of a flying club flying a club airplane. He badly needs recurrent training and that instructor should be thanking you. If and he gets into a still/spin on the turn to final and augers it in everyone in the club will be paying for it, and the instructor more than anyone else. Not to mention how you would have felt if he killed himself you had said nothing.
Yep, as long as you have a good angle of descent, that's just fine. My stall horn is chirping on the way down the last 700' and honking the last 50-100' if I'm trying to make an early turn off so I don't have to use brakes, otherwise it doesn't sound but a couple of chirps until final flare and hold off where it's full on.
You should feel as comfortable with the bottom of the envelope as he is. For the record, on my last flight review I flew final below the white arc in a 172, the CFI pointed it out, "We're still flying right?" "Yeah" "Then we're just fine." After I touched down on the threshold PMP tower called down "We score that a 10."
You should feel confident and comfortable handling your plane at the very bottom margins of the speed envelope, that is where safety lies. The amount of energy you carry into a crash determines the severity of the injuries, stopping at over 50Gs is 50% fatal in humans (aorta separates IIRC) and 75G near 100% fatal. The force in an impact goes up with the square of the speed. Any speed you carry into a crash beyond what is necessary to maintain controlled flight exponentially increases your chances of a fatal injury.
Worry less about numbers and arcs and horns and concentrate on your fingertips and your keister, slow fly flirting back and forth across the edge of stall. You don't need to fear it, learn its feel and nuances and how to recover before anything actually happened to disturb your inertia vector by more than a few inches.
This is what it takes a mastery of to be a 'safe pilot', not a blanket avoidance of the bottom of the envelope and a dogmatic approach to flying a plane by numbers. Numbers are there n your basic GA plane to give you a guideline when you are first learning, but what you should remember to learn is to replace the numbers with finesse as you learn to feel, trim, and control the plane to increasing degrees of accuracy. Risk is best managed through skill in energy management.
airheadpenguin
Pre-takeoff checklist
The question is, is the pilot the OP flew with doing this out of a sense of mastery which he can recover from a bad situation or is he doing this because he's oblivious to the risk. I'm inclined to believe the latter until proven otherwise.
I guess people project themselves onto others.
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
I have to practice my slow flight constantly.
It's harder than it looks to fly 90 knots and hold altitude, airspeed, and turn to headings nice and steady and level.
And as you get down closer to stall speeds, control inputs have to be quicker and more responsive.
It's harder than it looks to fly 90 knots and hold altitude, airspeed, and turn to headings nice and steady and level.
And as you get down closer to stall speeds, control inputs have to be quicker and more responsive.
90kts for slow flight in a 180? 
redtail
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I get the whole "mastering the envelope" thing, I really do, and I enjoy practicing up at altitude. But do you really think it's wise to be "flirting on the edge of stall" in the pattern
.Do the big boys in the jets do that?
I get the whole "mastering the envelope" thing, I really do, and I enjoy practicing up at altitude. But do you really think it's wise to be "flirting on the edge of stall" in the pattern
Do the big boys in the jets do that?
The stall horn normally comes on between 5 and 10 kts above stall. If you have a 45kt actual stall speed and a 10 kt horn, the horn is beginning to indicate above 1.2Vso.
The big boys in jets fly a Vref speed that is tuned to their weight, do little boys in bug smashers do that?
redtail
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I'm well aware of that, thanks. Still not flying my base to final with the stall horn blaring
. and I've never flown with a CFI that did either.
I'm well aware of that, thanks. Still not flying my base to final with the stall horn blaring
Whether you do or don't is irrelevant, why you won't is the only matter of relevance. If it's because what you fear might happen, then you should get further training in the bottom of the envelope, especially on approach. If you don't practice it when you can, you won't have it when you need it.
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
90kts for slow flight in a 180?
Granted, that is fast flight for me, but I think you get what I meant.
Keeping most planes powered and trimmed and all that goes along with it, it takes some pilot attention to keep it there and fly at slower speeds. As you get closer to stall speeds, it takes increasing attention.
It still takes me practice to push my aircraft to it's STOL limits.
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redtail
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It's for the same reason I pitch for Vy on a normal takeoff and no slower than Vx.
My MCA and short field landing technique is pretty good according to the CFI I flew with a couple of months ago, but flirting with stalls in the pattern is something I don't do!
By the way, I DO practice it......at 3000AGL
azure
Final Approach
Count me along with those who don't think this is generally a good regime to be in when flying in the pattern. In calm air, when the object is to land as short as possible, sure, go for it. I did that on my first supervised solo in a 150 at KDET (5000 ft runway), and I frustrated my CFI because I landed so short he was too far away to see me land. But that was in perfectly smooth, calm air. Having experienced 10-15 kt wind shear more times than I care to count, I sure wouldn't want to be flying along at 10 kts above stall at 300 AGL if there was the slightest chance of encountering that. When there's gustiness to the winds, I'll add that 1/2 times the gust factor to my final approach speed too, thank you very much.
At 3000 AGL, or even 1500 AGL, absolutely, do it and get a good feel for the bottom of your plane's envelope, it could save your butt someday. I just don't think this is such a hot idea in the pattern except in unusually benign conditions.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Not necessary to practice it low at first. Just make up an imaginary runway in the sky with a hard deck altitude and fly as slow as you like on "approach" to it.
Of course if you're utterly hamfisted you'll stall and if beyond hamfisted, spin. And we don't teach those much anymore... So no wonder lost folks think death is looming just beyond the stall horn.
Most pilots have not experienced how much more pull it takes to go from descending left turn with stall horn locked on, to an over the top right hand spin entry. No experience with how far up the nose has to be, butt feel, sound, floppy flight controls, etc.
That said, they also haven't seen how fast it goes over if you do pull that hard, either.
Cpt_Kirk
En-Route
Hank S
En-Route
I'm very comfortable flying at MCA with the stall horn on, making turns in both directions, climbing and descending. At altitude. In the pattern, at 500' agl? Not on your life, much less mine.
Nite that I base my "slippery, fast, hard to land" plane at a 3000' field with nice, tall trees at both ends, close enough to obscure the runway numbers until very short final. The only times I get near the end is when I roll out to let someone in behind me, since there is no taxiway and back-taxiing while someone is on final is rude.
Nite that I base my "slippery, fast, hard to land" plane at a 3000' field with nice, tall trees at both ends, close enough to obscure the runway numbers until very short final. The only times I get near the end is when I roll out to let someone in behind me, since there is no taxiway and back-taxiing while someone is on final is rude.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Observation: So you won't do something you've seen and experienced as safe a multitude of times at altitude, but you'll use less than the full runway for takeoff as a matter of normal course, knowing there's nowhere to go off either end?
Kinda odd post that you'd admit that, really.
???
Doggtyred
En-Route
Being angry at you for HIS intentional disregard for safe procedures is a character flaw. He knows better. He was trained right (according to the CFI).
My advice? Find friends who do the right thing and are safe. Surround yourself with good people (honest, with integrity, and good judgement) and you will rarely face such a dilemma again.
There are quite a few people along the way I swore I would never fly with again. One subsequently made a smoking hole in the ground being checked out for a pipeline patrol job. Another made a gear up in an Arrow with his wife and mom-in-law. Am I perfect? Not at all... but that little voice in your head is worth listening to.
My advice? Find friends who do the right thing and are safe. Surround yourself with good people (honest, with integrity, and good judgement) and you will rarely face such a dilemma again.
There are quite a few people along the way I swore I would never fly with again. One subsequently made a smoking hole in the ground being checked out for a pipeline patrol job. Another made a gear up in an Arrow with his wife and mom-in-law. Am I perfect? Not at all... but that little voice in your head is worth listening to.
How does the plane fly differently at 50', 500', or 5000'?
Jaybird180
Final Approach
And when do you need it in an approach to land?
When you have 150' to stick the plane in and no prop turning. 5 kts at the end can make the difference between walking and an ambulance, 10 kts can get you a hearse instead. Practiced skills and known, confident, abilities are never your enemy.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
I should have stated: "except an emergency", but I thought it was obvious....since it wasn't, is that the only scenario where it's needed sir?
Sure, and how do you prepare for an emergency? Emergencies don't end at a 1500' imaginary deck, nor does that allow you to experience ground effect in the process. The best way to practice it is on final to a runway where you can see and measure the results of your effort.
RV10flyer
Pattern Altitude
I practice slow flight and stalls with the family at 1500' AGL and at 3-5' AGL over our long runway without airspeed reference. By practicing at a very low altitude, it will keep that throttle hand from freezing up or overdoing it. This practice comes in handy when landing in gusty conditons. If we turn off all power before a crash we will lose the stall buzzer and the entire panel. I am comfortable with that because I go by feel.
We just lost an RV-10 out in Oregon Sat 5/31/14. Witnesses said there was no engine noise then it nose dived into a concrete parking lot. 51 and 4 yr old died, 34 yr old lived. Nearly 400 hrs in his homebuilt since 2010.
We just lost an RV-10 out in Oregon Sat 5/31/14. Witnesses said there was no engine noise then it nose dived into a concrete parking lot. 51 and 4 yr old died, 34 yr old lived. Nearly 400 hrs in his homebuilt since 2010.
Hank S
En-Route
I do periodic simulated engine outs to full stop at various places, including this field and one that was 2420 x 40. I practice slow flight at altitude, but keep reasonable, book speeds in the pattern; my emergency landings are practiced at the same book speeds, full stop, throttle at idle. I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone, other than certificated CFII's and the occasional DPE. And yes, I hear the stall horn on every landing, just before the main wheels chirp.
Your question does not make sense--I don't to fly into fields where I will require the entire runway to take off . . . so every departure is planned to "use less than the full runway for takeoff." It seems that planning to use the whole runway for takeoff leaves no room to stop if needed. My 3000' field leaves time to accelerate and stop; if I have a problem at 200-300 agl, there are options that I can survive, although the river is pretty cold much of the year.
As with many airports, development has encroached and an adjoining landowner has been fighting in court to not cut the [worthless] water maple trees at the end of the runway. A decision has finally been reached regarding financial compensation for the trees, after almost 20 years. His often-announced goal was to close the airport.
Yes, I practice stalls at altitude, but will never practice one at pattern altitude or less. Seems there is an FAR that covers minimum agl at the end of such practice maneuvers, but also I learned flying RC to practice 2 or 3 mistakes high.
Maybe I misunderstood your question, or do you really think that it is safe to use the entire runway to takeoff? That would be difficult at some of the controlled fields that I visit, where runways are up to 11,000 feet [KGSP].
ChrisK
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MAKG1
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Yup, I've done it too, though at much higher altitude.
If you're well below max gross, you can often fly the airplane below the stall speed for your configuration. Those stall speeds are for max gross and usually full-forward CG.
I don't fly that way on approach. Too many wind gusts to ruin your whole day. In that regime, the aircraft is unstable in pitch, and momentary 5 knots on the tail can be quite difficult to recover from. Just a few knots faster, it's not so bad.
It's kinda fun at altitude. Especially in a glass panel where the ASI turns red and all that.
ChrisK
En-Route
Oh I know you can do it, and I know that those speeds are adjusted based on weight. I was just clarifying.
I personally don't see any reason to fly "all the way down final" below VSO, but maybe that's just because I'm new =P Anymore, I fly slow enough to make CFIs nervous during rental checkouts and that's flying a 172 at 60 knots. I just think that the CFIs who are used to flying students are scared to death of stall / spin.
I try to fly a 182T at 70 knots until I'm on short final.
I personally don't see any reason to fly "all the way down final" below VSO, but maybe that's just because I'm new =P Anymore, I fly slow enough to make CFIs nervous during rental checkouts and that's flying a 172 at 60 knots. I just think that the CFIs who are used to flying students are scared to death of stall / spin.
I try to fly a 182T at 70 knots until I'm on short final.
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Is Vso a hard number at any weight, or one derived for maximum gross weight? 300lbs of people and 12 gallons of fuel departed on that flight, and a half an hour of maneuvering fuel was consumed prior to that approach in a 172N carrying flaps 40. What do you think the true stall speed for the plane was?
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
Slow is good, but I'll add my lower time opinion that you never want to stall in an engine out. It's more important to maintain control and land as level as possible under control. Don't ever plan to stall it when you're gliding.
In engine out accidents even in trees, the planes that maintained a good level glide into them fared better than those who stalled and dropped in. Sorry, I can't link the source, just what I've read and I believe it.
Think Captain Skulley gliding the jet into the river. He never stalled the craft. He maintained a certain degree of glide all the way to the water.
pilot_dude
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But Capt Skulley doesn't have the training or skill of Henning.