Stall/Spin after takeoff caught on video

I’ve wanted to try this but haven’t yet, may do so in my BFR next month - at altitude start a climb at Vx, then pull power, see how quickly the speed bleeds down past Vso...
Another thing to dry is an accelerated stall from a bank. I only did it in a Cherokee, which is not violent even with the old square wing. I keep meaning to do it in the Mooney, but honestly I don't have the balls to try it uncoordinated.
 
Another thing to dry is an accelerated stall from a bank. I only did it in a Cherokee, which is not violent even with the old square wing. I keep meaning to do it in the Mooney, but honestly I don't have the balls to try it uncoordinated.

Am guessing the Mooney can recover from a spin. Most CFIs that I did flight reviews heard all of the grumman spin horror stories, so they were a little gun-shy with stalls. Did one flight review with a CFI that competes in acro events. He looked at the Tiger tail feathers and laughed saying," you'd have to convert the spin to an inverted spin to recover, as there is no rudder surface below the elevator level." He showed me in his Pitts - there's no way you'd save it in the pattern.
 
He showed me in his Pitts - there's no way you'd save it in the pattern.
I visited the EAA 59 breakfast in Waco 3 weeks ago, flying the Carlson. Their hangar is at an end of a taxiway at right angles with a runway (airport has 2). A member departed with a pass over the breakfast area (in an RV-6, IIRC). I thought I'd do the same: take off, make 90-degree right turn at about half length of the runway. Takeoff roll of Carlson is very short usually. I started the takeoff and the performance was so-so, I was barely at 300 ft in time to turn at half-length. Maybe air was a little hot. When I banked 45 for the turn, the airplane started to overbank on me. It all happened very quickly, just like the video. I gave it a good dose of opposite rudder and that arrested the motion. Then, I reduced the pitch, completed the turn with a modest bank, and lined up my pass. A few members of the chapter probably laughed themselves silly if they saw it. I seriously was scared for a second. The altitude was relatively low.
 
That accident happened at my home airport. From the video it looks like he turned crosswind before the halfway point of the runway. Was this a takeoff or a go around? If it was a takeoff he was really high for just being 2000' down the runway. If he was having engine trouble he still had ~2000' of runway plus the grass area at the end of the runway.
 
For all of you who maintain you can't recover from this type of scenario at pattern altitude, watch the video again. The intial departure was a simple stall w/ wing drop. The airplane dropped its nose and momentarily paused with no further rotation about the yaw or roll axes. After a moment, the aircraft starts to rotate, likely due to aft stick and improper right aileron trying to pick the left wing up. Spins just don't instantly happen - they develop due to continued improper inputs. This initial stall departure could have been recovered with stall/spin training and practice. I don't understand why the CFI did not conduct stall practice.
 
For all of you who maintain you can't recover from this type of scenario at pattern altitude, watch the video again. The intial departure was a simple stall w/ wing drop. The airplane dropped its nose and momentarily paused with no further rotation about the yaw or roll axes. After a moment, the aircraft starts to rotate, likely due to aft stick and improper right aileron trying to pick the left wing up. Spins just don't instantly happen - they develop due to continued improper inputs. This initial stall departure could have been recovered with stall/spin training and practice. I don't understand why the CFI did not conduct stall practice.

It's an unnatural motion to move that stick forward and not pull back when that nose drops in a stall, which is why stall training and being comfortable with stalls is so important for pilot. It is an equally strong impulse to want to cheat the base to final turn with the rudder when you overshoot final, bad stuff, pilots need to understand how badly these things can bite and not do them.
 
I guess I'm picking nits, but I think stall/spin accidents as a rule occur after takeoff, since they cannot occur before.


I've read stories of Mooneys in spins that were harrowing to say the least. I'll happily do stalls, but I'm not going anywhere near a spin without lots of altitude underneath me.
 
That accident happened at my home airport. From the video it looks like he turned crosswind before the halfway point of the runway. Was this a takeoff or a go around? If it was a takeoff he was really high for just being 2000' down the runway. If he was having engine trouble he still had ~2000' of runway plus the grass area at the end of the runway.
I was there. Talking to Randy outside his shop. We thought something was wrong as soon as he took off. And my instructor later told me he was a very conscientious pilot who flew with an instructor often. And he had time in type before he bought the accident airplane.

Very sad.
 
For all of you who maintain you can't recover from this type of scenario at pattern altitude, watch the video again. The intial departure was a simple stall w/ wing drop. The airplane dropped its nose and momentarily paused with no further rotation about the yaw or roll axes. After a moment, the aircraft starts to rotate, likely due to aft stick and improper right aileron trying to pick the left wing up. Spins just don't instantly happen - they develop due to continued improper inputs. This initial stall departure could have been recovered with stall/spin training and practice. I don't understand why the CFI did not conduct stall practice.
You're right. I went back and watched it over several times. There may have been time to recover this assuming it was as simple as loss of control and there were no mechanical or medical factors. I think there was "enough" altitude had he added right rudder and pushed when it stalled. Chances are I would have spun it in too, so I am not throwing stones.
 
For all of you who maintain you can't recover from this type of scenario at pattern altitude, watch the video again. The intial departure was a simple stall w/ wing drop. The airplane dropped its nose and momentarily paused with no further rotation about the yaw or roll axes. After a moment, the aircraft starts to rotate, likely due to aft stick and improper right aileron trying to pick the left wing up. Spins just don't instantly happen - they develop due to continued improper inputs. This initial stall departure could have been recovered with stall/spin training and practice. I don't understand why the CFI did not conduct stall practice.
Most of the people that say you can't seem to be commenting on the video. Seemed like many of them were a bit confused, saying, "the spin has to be fully developed before you recover from it" and that it takes 1000 to 1500 feet. Wonder if someone had spin training or had read about spin training and they think you can't recover unless its fully developed as if you were in training and told not to recover until it had fully developed. :confused:
 
Dunno about recovery. We're all thinking about our certificated airframes with their very predictable stall characteristics. This was a one-off experimental, I don't know how well it could recover and neither do you.
 
Read the report. Possible no compression on one head, Pilot unfamiliar with characteristics of the plane, and the CFI who said she did not train on stall techniques for this plane and that he had some issues but "was doing better". Seems like lots of bad things all at once.


How in the hell does a CFI give a checkout to a new pilot without doing stalls???

Sounds like potential grounds for a lawsuit.

Which instructor do you name in the suit? The one that flew with him in this plane, the one that signed off his flight review 8 months earlier, or his primary instructor?

240+ hours and he doesn’t keep the plane close to being coordinated and does not maintain airspeed in a departure turn?
 
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Dunno about recovery. We're all thinking about our certificated airframes with their very predictable stall characteristics. This was a one-off experimental, I don't know how well it could recover and neither do you.

The Tailwind has normal stall/recovery characteristics. This was not a "one off" design. The pilot had the opportunity the recover the stall before his improper inputs caused further development into a spin.
 
The airplane dropped its nose and momentarily paused with no further rotation about the yaw or roll axes. After a moment, the aircraft starts to rotate,

I noticed this as well but I am unfamiliar with the plane and how it handles. I was thinking that when the plane momentarily paused that the airspeed may have dropped enough to develop a secondary stall which then turned into the stall/spin with panicky incorrect control application.

But I do not know anything about the plane so all this is speculation.
 
The Tailwind has normal stall/recovery characteristics. This was not a "one off" design. The pilot had the opportunity the recover the stall before his improper inputs caused further development into a spin.
So you built it? If not, how closely did the builder follow the plans? What kind of engine did he put in it? Were there any alterations affect its stall/spin characteristics?

The answers to these questions is despite your know-it-all attitude, you don't know. Every experimental is a one-off, since there is no type certificate to follow. Every one can fly quite a bit differently. And fact of the matter is you don't know how any one of them will stall or how it will recover until you've flown it.
 
So you built it? If not, how closely did the builder follow the plans? What kind of engine did he put in it? Were there any alterations affect its stall/spin characteristics?

The answers to these questions is despite your know-it-all attitude, you don't know. Every experimental is a one-off, since there is no type certificate to follow. Every one can fly quite a bit differently. And fact of the matter is you don't know how any one of them will stall or how it will recover until you've flown it.

You're right of course, but, its pretty obvious the this thing stalled and hung up for a time before it began to spin. Considering the other mistakes the pilot obviously made, its hard to put that on the airplane.
 
You're right of course, but, its pretty obvious the this thing stalled and hung up for a time before it began to spin. Considering the other mistakes the pilot obviously made, its hard to put that on the airplane.
I'm not blaming the airframe one bit. But anyone blithely saying "oh, all he had to do is X", is ignoring the fact that the accident aircraft could have had dramatically different responses to control inputs. Just the nature of experimental airplanes. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with any of them, just that they can be unpredictable.

All that said I tend to think about pilot error myself. Isn't that hard to keep your speed up. Heck, I do it in my Mooney, which is loads harder to slow down to land than a Tailwind. Heck, if he really had to land it that slow to make that particular field, he could have gone elsewhere.

I suspect he got distracted by something in his new to him airplane, got slow, and once he hit the stall/spin might not have been sufficiently conversant with the aircraft to recover properly.
 
So you built it? If not, how closely did the builder follow the plans? What kind of engine did he put in it? Were there any alterations affect its stall/spin characteristics?

The answers to these questions is despite your know-it-all attitude, you don't know. Every experimental is a one-off, since there is no type certificate to follow. Every one can fly quite a bit differently. And fact of the matter is you don't know how any one of them will stall or how it will recover until you've flown it.

It was a built to plans Tailwind with the standard Lyc. 320. You are really reaching. These are straightforward airplanes. There is also this thing called Phase I testing that is required by the FAA, and most builders ACTUALLY perform. This particular airplane would not have survived for 26 years without being crashed if something was so wrong with it that it could not perform normal stall recovery, as any other standard Tailwind will do without issue. You sound like the typical pilot who thinks stall/spins at pattern altitudes are a death sentence, due to your own lack of stall/spin experience and skill. The way you talk about Experimental aircraft leads me to believe you have little to no experience with them, have definitely never owned one, and have never done a spin on your own in anything either.
 
It was a built to plans Tailwind with the standard Lyc. 320. You are really reaching. These are straightforward airplanes. There is also this thing called Phase I testing that is required by the FAA, and most builders ACTUALLY perform. This particular airplane would not have survived for 26 years without being crashed if something was so wrong with it that it could not perform normal stall recovery, as any other standard Tailwind will do without issue. You sound like the typical pilot who thinks stall/spins at pattern altitudes are a death sentence, due to your own lack of spin experience and skill.
My Mooney also made it through all that stuff, but I wouldn't put it into a spin on a dare. It will recover from a spin, but it takes its dear sweet time to do so. You simply don't know about the accident airplane. There are folks who treat the Phase I testing as an excuse to go fly around their local area. Not everyone does it right. And you don't know what happened to the accident airplane. In 26 years a number of owners had the opportunity to do whatever they liked to the airplane. You don't know what was done, or how it affected the aircraft's flight regimen. Again, you just don't know. And all these declarations to the contrary won't change that.
 
Just the nature of experimental airplanes. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with any of them, just that they can be unpredictable.

A certified aircraft can be unpredictable too if, for instance, it's loaded to the point of having a tail-heavy cg.

Nothing vaguely unpredictable about my -9A.
 
A certified aircraft can be unpredictable too if, for instance, it's loaded to the point of having a tail-heavy cg.

Which is why we're supposed to follower weight and balance charts, those of you who have them.

Nothing vaguely unpredictable about my -9A.
I bet cash money there would be about one built by me.
 
In 26 years a number of owners had the opportunity to do whatever they liked to the airplane. You don't know what was done, or how it affected the aircraft's flight regimen. Again, you just don't know. And all these declarations to the contrary won't change that.

I've seen the airplane man, and seen it fly. There wasn't a thing modified on it to prevent stall/incipient spin recovery.
 
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