stall practice question

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muleywannabe

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Cherokee235
Practiced stalls on thursday with my CFI. Did my first power off and did fine, then did my second and for some reason had a hard time keeping wings level using rudders, instead i tried to use aileron and when we stalled the plane turned hard the way i was turning the aileron and my instructor scared the crap out of me when he said thats a great way to spin. Woke me up bigtime and really scared me that day for power on stalls afterward. Can you give me some pointers on keeping wings level during stall practice? My instructor does an excellent job helping me understand but i always like to hear your perspectives. Thanks
 
muleywannabe said:
...had a hard time keeping wings level using rudders, instead i tried to use aileron and...
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Don't use aileron instead of rudder, use aileron to help control bank in addition to using rudder to control yaw. As long as the ball stays centered, you can't spin no matter what you do with the ailerons, but if you use aileron alone, the adverse yaw they create can spin you big-time.
 
muleywannabe said:
Practiced stalls on thursday with my CFI. Did my first power off and did fine, then did my second and for some reason had a hard time keeping wings level using rudders, instead i tried to use aileron and when we stalled the plane turned hard the way i was turning the aileron and my instructor scared the crap out of me when he said thats a great way to spin. Woke me up bigtime and really scared me that day for power on stalls afterward. Can you give me some pointers on keeping wings level during stall practice? My instructor does an excellent job helping me understand but i always like to hear your perspectives. Thanks
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Yes, when the airplane is stalled the ailerons can get you in trouble, rudder is your friend. If your instructor is up to it have him give you some spin training, when you shine the light on the boogyman he don't look so scarey.
 
First, be patient with the training process since it typically takes a couple-r-three repetitions for everything to sink in.

Slow flight is where you can really explore using rudder to pick up a wing rather than using aileron. Once you get the technique down in slow flight it's an easy transition to using the same technique in when approaching a stall.
 
Train in a taildragger and your feet will be in the game all the time.

Tony
 
muleywannabe said:
Generally, in slow flight, I will have to use a lot of right rudder, correct?
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Use whatever rudder is necessary to maintain heading. The next step is to learn to use the rudder to "pick-up" a wing. In slow flight the aircraft will be much more responsive to rudder than aileron (in general) and you have time to demonstrate/learn the required control pressure and aircraft response.
 
1600vw said:
Read this and you will learn a lot. The very first thing you will learn. Never practice spin training in an airplane without a chute. You yourself could wear one but read what Rick says about bailing out of a spinning airplane.

http://www.amazon.com/Light-Airplane-Pilots-Guide-Awareness/dp/1879425432

Tony
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When I learned to fly you had to demonstrate recovery from a stall spin. This was done at around 3000 feet. Mine was done in an 85 hp champ and no one ever wore a chute as it's a very docile maneuver , done at very slow speed. The instructor, ex ww2 instructor was very calm and matter of fact and just imagine how many he had done in his career! I think, in a taildragger like a champ, Luscombe, t craft one gets a much better education as to how the airplane reacts to inputs in the air, on landing etc.
 
MAKG1 said:
You betcha.

And in the stall as well. It's not a subtle motion.
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In my mind, "lots of rudder" implies large deflection inputs, as in half deflection or more. You will not need that much during slow flight in most airplanes, just a little constant right rudder pressure held. How much rudder you need to maintain wings level during a stall depends on how coordinated you were when the airplane stalled. If you were well coordinated entering the stall, the airplane will likely stall straight ahead and you will not necessarily need any additional rudder input from that you were holding before the stall. But if you get a wing drop, in order to control it, you may need up to quick full rudder inputs.

And keep in mind that lots of pilots (and mabe some CFIs too) think that an uncontrolled wing drop during a stall will result in a spin. This is not necessarily true. A wing drop during a stall is most often just that - a wing drop. Once you break the stall, the airplane may simply recover the stall in a wing low attitude. In most airplanes, it takes fully deflected rudder and elevator inputs (and then you must maintain them) in order to produce a spin. Any less in most airplanes is likely a wing drop and possibly a spiral entry if you do not recover it. Stalling with the ball off center does not necessarily equal a spin entry. I'd suggest finding a qualified instructor and airplane to provide spin training. This will open your eyes and give you much better perspective on stall/spin issues.
 
In my mind, "a lot of rudder" means quite a bit more than usual. Which is true, especially if the rudder trim is ground adjustable only and set for full rental power cruise.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
When I learned to fly you had to demonstrate recovery from a stall spin. This was done at around 3000 feet. Mine was done in an 85 hp champ and no one ever wore a chute as it's a very docile maneuver , done at very slow speed. The instructor, ex ww2 instructor was very calm and matter of fact and just imagine how many he had done in his career! I think, in a taildragger like a champ, Luscombe, t craft one gets a much better education as to how the airplane reacts to inputs in the air, on landing etc.
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Rick talks about all this in his book and more. Great read.

Tony
 
MAKG1 said:
In my mind, "a lot of rudder" means quite a bit more than usual. Which is true, especially if the rudder trim is ground adjustable only and set for full rental power cruise.
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Well, the "usual" amount would be no rudder in cruise flight. Slow flight only requires a little more rudder deflection. But "a little rudder" and a "lot of rudder" is all subjective anyway. To me, "lots" is 50% or more. Few airplanes require near that much rudder in slow flight. Not even many rental pilots cruise around at full throttle at low altitudes, so it's very unlikely you'll find an airplane with its rudder trim tab deliberately set for full power cruise. Very high altitudes are different, of course. The rig of all airplanes is different. Some might require you to hold the smallest amount of left rudder in cruise. Some right rudder. This isn't worth getting too wrapped up in. The OP will figure out how much rudder is needed.
 
when I first started doing slow flight in training I was focusing on maintaining heading. as a new guy, I was incorrectly using full left aileron when I started drifting to the right, but kept turning right. I said to my cfi "look, what am I doing wrong?!?". well, I also had full right rudder. that was my 'A-HA' moment on using 'more' rudder but not necessarily full rudder.
 
From my recent personal experience, look out the window and get a sight picture instead of fixated on the instrument. As long as you are coordinated, i.e. keep the ball in the box with rudder, you will not spin. I, too hate stalls but with practice you will over come the fear.

Btw, if you think power off stall is "fun", just wait until you try Power On and Accelerated Stalls. Weeeeeeeeeee.... :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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spdracer888 said:
From my recent personal experience, look out the window and get a sight picture instead of fixated on the instrument. As long as you are coordinated, i.e. keep the ball in the box with rudder, you will not spin. I, too hate stalls but with practice you will over come the fear.

Btw, if you think power off stall is "fun", just wait until you try Power On and Accelerated Stalls. Weeeeeeeeeee.... :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I was never what one would call " born to fly" some that I know seemed born in an airplane, really had the touch. I enjoyed it a lot, still do but never first class. I really enjoy taildraggers the best and really enjoy landings, slipping, flaring, etc. I enjoyed the Stearman I had as there was lots of noise , easy to handle and great fun and a challange to land in a good three point or wheel landing. My other favorite was a Cessna 180 which I flew some but did not own due to the price. A real honest , nice flyer. I don't want to leave the impression that I am adept at acrobatics for I am not. I always looked outside for references, in landing I rarely look at the panel, usually a glance at speed on downwind then concentrate outside.
 
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1600vw said:
Never practice spin training in an airplane without a chute.
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Bah. Canadian students have been getting spin training for what? 80 years? No parachutes. Few crashes. Those that crash either deliberately spin airplanes not certified for them, or spin airplanes that are outside their utility categories, or stall and spin inadvertently, usually at a few hundred feet in the base-to-final turn where a parachute is no good at all.

Dan
 
Read the book and he explains all this and more. Spinning in the pattern is not spin training. That happens from lack of spin training.

To say few have crashed, One is to many. But I guess since you where not one of the few, why does it bother you.

Read the book. I myself will never do spin training in anything but what Rick points to. But I guess others here know more then this man.

You can do what you want. I will follow those who wrote the book and not those want-a-bee's. There is a reason why every pilot doing spins at airshows wear a chute. There is also a reason why the regs state one must use a chute when doing this.

I bet over all the years if you could ask all the people killed doing spin training if they would do it again in an airplane without a chute, I bet everyone would say...we want a chute.

Tony
 
My experience is flying tailwheel aircraft is different on the ground but not in the air. I'm not sure why anyone would say stalls and spins is different in a tailwheel than a nose wheel airplane.

The amount of rudder to use is the amount of rudder you need. Why worry about a little or a lot? Get the rudder started in at the first hint you need it and you won't need so much as if you delay use. To develop trust in the rudder, go up with a CFI, get into slow flight, have the CFI hold the aileron's neutral while you fold your arms on your chest and you make turns and banks in both directions using only the rudder. Ease into rudder use and then use more. You can get the airplane over pretty steeply and still bring it back with the rudder alone.

A person is not always required by FAR to wear a parachute when spin training.
 
Falling Leaf - A simple demonstration whereby a power off stall is entered, the yoke remains held fully aft and the pilot attempts to maintain wings level with use of the rudders. Admittedly many trainers perform this in sloppy fashion, but they still will do it well enough to get the idea. Try leaving the power at 1500-1600 can help. Or rent a cub/champ/citabria/etc and ask the instructor to provide this demo.

Recovery - Release back pressure.

It all boils down to perceiving the need for the rudder input. Most pilots don't catch the subtle yawing motions that precede the rolling motion. As a result they react properly to correct the roll, but the cause of the roll (the yawing motion) goes unchecked. The very second the nose slides (yaws) prompt rudder use is necessary. Try to put more effort into recognizing that yaw!
 
jnmeade said:
My experience is flying tailwheel aircraft is different on the ground but not in the air. I'm not sure why anyone would say stalls and spins is different in a tailwheel than a nose wheel airplane.

The amount of rudder to use is the amount of rudder you need. Why worry about a little or a lot? Get the rudder started in at the first hint you need it and you won't need so much as if you delay use. To develop trust in the rudder, go up with a CFI, get into slow flight, have the CFI hold the aileron's neutral while you fold your arms on your chest and you make turns and banks in both directions using only the rudder. Ease into rudder use and then use more. You can get the airplane over pretty steeply and still bring it back with the rudder alone.

A person is not always required by FAR to wear a parachute when spin training.
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The reason a tailwheel airplane would help this person, when you fly a tailwheel or taildragger your feet are always in the game. This person needs to learn to use his/her feet. Stop driving the thing like a car and start flying an airplane.
The reason I hate training in an ercoupe. You drive it. Anytime I train in one I have to be EXTRA careful for the first few hours after I climb back into my airplane. I hate driving an airplane. HATE IT.....

Tony
 
1600vw said:
The reason a tailwheel airplane would help this person, when you fly a tailwheel or taildragger your feet are always in the game. This person needs to learn to use his/her feet. Stop driving the thing like a car and start flying an airplane.
The reason I hate training in an ercoupe. You drive it. Anytime I train in one I have to be EXTRA careful for the first few hours after I climb back into my airplane. I hate driving an airplane. HATE IT.....

Tony
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The reason some airplanes take different rudder work is because the rudders and ailerons are not interconnected, as they are on the Ercoupe and Pipers. It has nothing to do with where the third wheel is located. It has everything to do with knowing how the airplane is built.
 
jnmeade said:
The reason some airplanes take different rudder work is because the rudders and ailerons are not interconnected, as they are on the Ercoupe and Pipers. It has nothing to do with where the third wheel is located. It has everything to do with knowing how the airplane is built.
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This is not about one airplane from another. The OP here is not using his feet, they are out of the game or running behind. The taildragger will get this persons feet in the game and ahead of the game not behind.
You can argue this and that about the two different airplanes but this is not about that. Its about getting your feet in the game..period. A tail wheel airplane will help with this.

Tony
 
Agreed. Take a lesson or two in a Piper Cub or something similar. Stick rudder throttle, and you will be forced to wake up your feet!

Many (most?) pilots fly a 172 for 100 hours, then get in a cub and realize what those pedal thingies on the floor are for.
 
jnmeade said:
I wonder why they are not required when not performing at air shows?
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Aerobatic airplanes are much less stable than the average training airplane. The CG is more aft to enable flat spins, which are occasionally troublesome. And airshow flying involves high-G maneuvers that can cause structural failure.

Spin training involves none of that.

Dan
 
1600vw said:
This is not about one airplane from another. The OP here is not using his feet, they are out of the game or running behind. The taildragger will get this persons feet in the game and ahead of the game not behind.
You can argue this and that about the two different airplanes but this is not about that. Its about getting your feet in the game..period. A tail wheel airplane will help with this.

Tony
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You are so wrong. You can get your feet in the game in a Cessna 150 just as well as you can in a Piper Cub. Aiming people at tailwheel when a C150 will do the job just as will is disingenuous at best.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Aerobatic airplanes are much less stable than the average training airplane. The CG is more aft to enable flat spins, which are occasionally troublesome. And airshow flying involves high-G maneuvers that can cause structural failure.

Spin training involves none of that.

Dan
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Agreed that normal spin training does not require use of a parachute under most conditions for the reasons you point out.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Aerobatic airplanes are much less stable than the average training airplane. The CG is more aft to enable flat spins, which are occasionally troublesome.
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I think it would be more accurate to say that acro planes have neutral characteristics. They go where you point them, do what you ask, and do not have the self-correcting, stall/spin resistant characteristics of many GA planes. But they have large, effective controls surfaces, and most are extremely predictable in all spin modes. Again, they do what you ask - getting in AND out of spins with authority. Because of this, I'm much more comfortable doing spins in acro planes vs. non-acro planes. Their spin characteristics thoughout all spins modes are generally predictable and known...and very untroublesome. I wouldn't dream of trying to force a flat spin in a Cherokee or Mooney - or most other non-aerobatic planes. It's routine stuff in an acro plane.
 
Ron Levy said:
Don't use aileron instead of rudder, use aileron to help control bank in addition to using rudder to control yaw. As long as the ball stays centered, you can't spin no matter what you do with the ailerons, but if you use aileron alone, the adverse yaw they create can spin you big-time.
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Ron- I think this may be questionable advice...and I'll tell you why.

After I got my ticket I was very proficient in footwork in stalls. I also flew a few other unfamiliar aircraft and it was also intuitive. I was very proud of myself that I had the discipline to maintain neutral ailerons and work my feet (I first noticed this when the DA-40 I was flying wouldn't really break and I could just wag the tail). This translated to other types and then I began to understand (albeit academically) how to aggravate a stall.

Fast forward to our flight, just two months ago: I was disappointed that I had a tendency to use yoke inputs in addition to (or perhaps more) than footwork. You didn't chide me for it, but I knew what I did wrong:mad:

I would say that it's now easier to believe what some folks say: certain airframes induce pediatric lethargy and the extension of that is things can get ugly in a hurry someday.

If I were an instructor I would BAN the use of aileron during any type of intentional stall and whack the student for failing to use the rudder to lift any falling wing.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Aerobatic airplanes are much less stable than the average training airplane. The CG is more aft to enable flat spins, which are occasionally troublesome. And airshow flying involves high-G maneuvers that can cause structural failure.

Spin training involves none of that.

Dan
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Exactly! Flying a Pitts or other high performance aircraft in airshows is another world from doing a roll in a Luscombe or a stall spin in an aeronca. NO one wore a chute to get a PPL back in the 50s in a light weight trainer. Spin training is done when the trainers mentioned above are STALLED! Hardly moving. The spin is very gentle, easily recovered. If you've experienced it you would feel stupid wearing a chute as it's not as dangerous as pattern flying! In the pattern is where many low time , poorly trained pilots buy the ranch.
 
Hi Muley.

You just need to go out with your CFI and practice more. My advice is to keep the ailerons neutral. As you are pulling up into the stall, look out the window, pick something in the air (like a cloud if they aren't moving too fast) or on the ground, and keep the airplane flying straight towards it using only rudder. If you can't see over the nose, look down the wing on your side. You can tell if the wing is sliding along the horizon one way or the other out of sync with your forward motion. If it is, stop it with rudder. Aileron won't keep it going straight. Aileron will just aggravate things. Try some of these with your CFI. You might come to enjoy it :). You can hold the yoke all the way back, and the airplane will stall, nose down and start flying, stall again, etc. Just keep it going straight with rudder. If the airplane is out of rig, though, all bets are off.
 
Ron Levy said:
Don't use aileron instead of rudder, use aileron to help control bank in addition to using rudder to control yaw. As long as the ball stays centered, you can't spin no matter what you do with the ailerons, but if you use aileron alone, the adverse yaw they create can spin you big-time.
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Ron, I've found in several airplanes that attempting to use the rudder to keep the ball centered is futile because the ball's reaction is delayed as is one's foot movement in response to the ball. But IME if you use the rudders to keep the heading from changing you cannot enter a spin.

What are your thoughts on that?
 
Shdw1 said:
Recovery - Release back pressure.
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I'd rather that pilots learn to - Unload the wing (aka reduce the pressure on your posterior or lap belt, whichever is greater). Releasing back pressure works only if you're pulling positive G (yes this is more common) and the airplane is flying substantially slower than it's trimmed for at the current wing loading.

It all boils down to perceiving the need for the rudder input. Most pilots don't catch the subtle yawing motions that precede the rolling motion. As a result they react properly to correct the roll, but the cause of the roll (the yawing motion) goes unchecked. The very second the nose slides (yaws) prompt rudder use is necessary. Try to put more effort into recognizing that yaw!
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Agreed 100%.
 
1600vw said:
Spinning in the pattern is not spin training. That happens from lack of spin training.
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No. Spin training (spin recovery) will not save you if you lose SA and get yourself into a spin from the pattern. Stall avoidance and stall recovery is what will save you in the pattern. If you are in the pattern and enter a spin it is too late.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I would say that it's now easier to believe what some folks say: certain airframes induce pediatric lethargy..
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Podiatric lethargy. Pediatrics involves children, not feet.

I used to call it somnopedosis. Sleepy feet.

Dan
 
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