SR22: lowest possible takeoff power setting?

datafuser

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Attention all Cirrus SR22 pilots:

What is the lowest possible takeoff power setting you have experienced?

I am wondering if it would be possible to use DA50 Magnum's 170hp diesel on the SR22.

A 170-hp diesel will surely burn much less fuel than the SR22's original 310hp gasoline engine, but if it cannot takeoff at 170hp, there is no point in further investigating this option.
 
That's about 56% power. Why not find a good long runway and see how it performs?

I expect it will be disappointing.

Jo
 
Seems to me that would be far better suited in an SR20, and still have disappointing performance.
 
A 170-hp diesel will surely burn much less fuel than the SR22's original 310hp gasoline engine...

For that matter, a 170 hp gasoline engine will burn much less fuel than the 310 hp gasoline engine. But, I'm pretty sure there's a reason why the SR-22 has a 310 hp engine to begin with...


Trapper John
 
1. Wouldn't you get the best of both worlds by keeping the original engine and then just pulling the power way back in cruise?

2. Isn't it going to cost a metric crap-ton of money to do that conversion? Call it $150k(which I think is absurdly low) - assuming you will fly the SR-22 another 5000 hours you would have to save at least 7 GPH to offset the expense. Time value of the money says this is insanity.

3. Don't forget the weight penalty of going from avgas to jet A.


Eggman
 
1. Wouldn't you get the best of both worlds by keeping the original engine and then just pulling the power way back in cruise?

2. Isn't it going to cost a metric crap-ton of money to do that conversion? Call it $150k(which I think is absurdly low) - assuming you will fly the SR-22 another 5000 hours you would have to save at least 7 GPH to offset the expense. Time value of the money says this is insanity.

3. Don't forget the weight penalty of going from avgas to jet A.


Eggman

All good points. And who would want to buy a one-off depowered SR-22? The disposition value would be near zero, I'd think.


Trapper John
 
This is an interesting idea, esp given the quoted 9gph max, and 6-7gph cruise... but 170hp is not enough to be effective for the SR22's airframe. The SR22 is a pretty heavy airplane (MGW of 3400#), and would take a pretty long time to climb to the 10,000+ feet for the turbo'd engine to really be effective.

If it could be done, however, it would be quite a fuel burn improvement. 170hp is about 55% of the SR22's 310hp engine. The SR22 info manual says that the Cirrus will do 55% @ 14000feet @ 13.1gph.
http://servicecenters.cirrusdesign.com/TechPubs/pdf/POH/sr22-001/pdf/20880-001InfoManual.pdf

This engine might make a good retrofit for the vast array of 180-200hp planes (Cherokee, Archer, Arrow, Skyhawk, Cardinal, Sundowner, Tiger)... Flying in the low teens, would increase TAS and get the fuel flow down from 9gph to 6-7gph. That's nice, and should add some range to planes that desperately need it (for IFR ops anyway).

I hav been following aviation for about 25 years, and during that time have seen way too many claims for the next great engine. They never seem to materialize. The retrofit price tends to be much too high (often 2x their Lyc/Cont competition) to make the promised 20% fuel savings of value. I thought Diamond had something with the original turbo-diesel TwinStar engines, but then of course Theilert went bankrupt... screwing almost every TwinStar owner.


Attention all Cirrus SR22 pilots:

What is the lowest possible takeoff power setting you have experienced?

I am wondering if it would be possible to use DA50 Magnum's 170hp diesel on the SR22.

A 170-hp diesel will surely burn much less fuel than the SR22's original 310hp gasoline engine, but if it cannot takeoff at 170hp, there is no point in further investigating this option.
 
If it could be done, however, it would be quite a fuel burn improvement. 170hp is about 55% of the SR22's 310hp engine. The SR22 info manual says that the Cirrus will do 55% @ 14000feet @ 13.1gph.
I fly a normally aspirated 22, for 170HP LOP the fuel burn is more like 11.5.

Joe
 
A 50 hp diesel tractor will pull with a 100 hp gas tractor all day long...
Diesel horses are bigger than gas horses... More torque at any given RPM allows you to turn a bigger, slower prop... If that diesel is turbocharged so it holds power at altitude I expect it to give the 310 gas engine a run for the money at cruise...

Now, that is not to say that I believe that particular engine swap to be a good idea... I would need lots more information before I signed on...

denny-o
 
I have never used anything less than full throttle. But the plane feels like it would take off and climb just fine at around 70 %. As others have said...the SR-20 airframe might be a better choice here.
 
A 50 hp diesel tractor will pull with a 100 hp gas tractor all day long...
Diesel horses are bigger than gas horses... More torque at any given RPM allows you to turn a bigger, slower prop... If that diesel is turbocharged so it holds power at altitude I expect it to give the 310 gas engine a run for the money at cruise...

Well, that's not exactly correct. Diesel automotive and truck engines do tend to have more power at any given RPM than gas car engines, but the diesel engines they're using in these applications tend to be little 4-cylinders that rev significantly higher than their Continental and Lycoming counterparts. What the propeller speed is varies depending on the gearing in the gearbox. Diesel horsepower is the same as gas horsepower, it's the other specifics of the engine. The SMA diesel is the only commercially available one I'm aware of that is actually direct drive and revs pretty low, but that's 2200 RPM, which is pretty close to in line with what a lot of the big Lycomings turn. 2200 RPM is a standard cruise point on my Aztec (although I'll run higher to get more power depending on the altitude I'm flying at).

Also, these little diesel engines run insanely high boost, and the turbos aren't able to maintain power at altitude the same way as gas engines are, because the turbochargers simply can't get the sorts of pressure ratios up high that you'd need to maintain that. So, you aren't able to keep that power all the way up to altitude, unless you get into some sort of sequential turbo setup. So, these turbodiesels tend to be more along the lines of somewhere in between a naturally aspirated and a turbocharged gasoline engine, but their altitude performance is still not as good as a turbocharged gasoline engine. It might be able to keep up in cruise under certain conditions, but that would be running the thing firewalled, and assume a low power setting on the gas engine. Your maximum performance figures would suffer quite a bit.

All of these comments ignore the hurdles of getting the FAA to give their OK on it, which takes a lot of work.
 
The Rotax engines for light sport are pretty impressive, in terms of power to weight and fuel consumption.
 
Well, that's not exactly correct. Diesel automotive and truck engines do tend to have more power at any given RPM than gas car engines, but the diesel engines they're using in these applications tend to be little 4-cylinders that rev significantly higher than their Continental and Lycoming counterparts. What the propeller speed is varies depending on the gearing in the gearbox. Diesel horsepower is the same as gas horsepower, it's the other specifics of the engine. The SMA diesel is the only commercially available one I'm aware of that is actually direct drive and revs pretty low, but that's 2200 RPM, which is pretty close to in line with what a lot of the big Lycomings turn. 2200 RPM is a standard cruise point on my Aztec (although I'll run higher to get more power depending on the altitude I'm flying at).

Also, these little diesel engines run insanely high boost, and the turbos aren't able to maintain power at altitude the same way as gas engines are, because the turbochargers simply can't get the sorts of pressure ratios up high that you'd need to maintain that. So, you aren't able to keep that power all the way up to altitude, unless you get into some sort of sequential turbo setup. So, these turbodiesels tend to be more along the lines of somewhere in between a naturally aspirated and a turbocharged gasoline engine, but their altitude performance is still not as good as a turbocharged gasoline engine. It might be able to keep up in cruise under certain conditions, but that would be running the thing firewalled, and assume a low power setting on the gas engine. Your maximum performance figures would suffer quite a bit.

All of these comments ignore the hurdles of getting the FAA to give their OK on it, which takes a lot of work.

well said.
 
Speaking of the TwinStar, it's a great example of the difference between diesels and gas, as has been pointed out.

The original TwinStar came out with 135hp Thielerts on it. Thinking in terms of horsepower, I couldn't WAIT until they came out with the 180hp/side Lycoming version.

The 180hp/side Lyc version disappointed me. It performs, if anything, slightly WORSE than the 135hp/side Thielert diesel version. Dunno yet what the Austros will do for it.

So, higher torque, same HP, you'll probably do a little better than 170/310 would imply. However, why on earth you'd go to all that trouble is beyond me, especially when Diamond is going to come out with that DA50 that you mention! Why not just buy one of those? :dunno:
 
Thanks for all the replies.

Yes it is not worth all the troubles, but I was wondering if there would be a retrofit market for thousands of Cirrus SR22 in case 100LL Avgas disappears or becomes too hard to find sometime in the future.

As for the future of 100LL Avgas, what do you guys think?
 
"Rumors of my demise have been greatly exagerated..."

I dunno. I am sure at some point 100LL will go away... especially given the non-green implications of lead based fuel additives. But as much as the flying mags and websites have pontificated the demise of 100LL over the last 10 years... Each time I go to the pump - it is still there.

I am coming up on TBO on my Lyc, and have not considered swapping to a diesel or JetA capable engine.

Having said that... The Lyc O-360 in the Cherokee is capable of burning non-ethanol mogas, so that is an easy backup plan for the 100LL phaseout. Maybe if I was feeding a non-mogas capable engine... I might be more concerned.

Speaking of... Jay Honeck... do you still have the mogas pickup truck? How much $$$ do you think you've saved over the years? It has to be a ton by now.


As for the future of 100LL Avgas, what do you guys think?
 
So, higher torque, same HP, you'll probably do a little better than 170/310 would imply. However, why on earth you'd go to all that trouble is beyond me, especially when Diamond is going to come out with that DA50 that you mention! Why not just buy one of those? :dunno:

Torque, RPM and HP are mathematically related (HP is proportional to Torque * RPM) so to say a diesels have "more torque" is a non-sequitur. A diesel may develop it's peak torque and peak HP at a lower RPM than a similarly configured gasoline engine but with sufficient CuIn a gasoline engine can produce rated power at whatever RPM is needed. The main reason that a diesel with lower max rated power than a gasoline alternative might provide similar performance in an airplane is simply due to the fact that all such diesels are turbocharged and therefore able to produce a higher percentage of their rated power as the altitude increases.
 
Well, this is a fun discussion.. As the plant engineer who was responsible for the dyno room at a now defunct auto company, I do have some back ground...

Now, having said that I issue the challenge I always offer in these discussions when folks take issue with my statement that diesel horses are bigger than gas horses (tongue in cheek scientifically, but it works out in the real world) ...
I have a 1947 Farmall MD with the original engine, nominal 30 HP new, and a zillion running hours, misses on one cylinder under load, that can make maybe 25 hp (I hope) on a good day... Bring your 25 or 30 horse gas tractor out to my farm and we will hitch your tractor to the bottom plows the old MD pulls... Wanna wager an iron man?

Now, the point about the aircraft diesels being high rpm machines that depend upon boost to make power is right on... I have the same thing in my Ranger Tug with the Cummins / Mercruiser 150 hp engine... None the less, they are a solution to a problem of weight...



denny-o
 
Now, having said that I issue the challenge I always offer in these discussions when folks take issue with my statement that diesel horses are bigger than gas horses (tongue in cheek scientifically, but it works out in the real world) ...
I'm throwing this out as discussion, this is how my feeble brain sees the problem:

In your tractor challenge as with heavy duty trucks, torque is more important that horse-power for acceleration.

In an airplane with a fixed pitch prop during the takeoff roll, increased torque can result in increased static RPM and thus higher takeoff power, but that difference is not there with a constant speed prop like the SR22.

One thing I'm not sure about is the relationship between thrust and HP, I believe that thrust is directly related to HP so climb performance and cruise speed should be related to how much power the engine is producing and the efficiency of the propeller.

Joe
 
Well, that's not exactly correct. Diesel automotive and truck engines do tend to have more power at any given RPM than gas car engines, but the diesel engines they're using in these applications tend to be little 4-cylinders that rev significantly higher than their Continental and Lycoming counterparts. What the propeller speed is varies depending on the gearing in the gearbox. Diesel horsepower is the same as gas horsepower, it's the other specifics of the engine. The SMA diesel is the only commercially available one I'm aware of that is actually direct drive and revs pretty low, but that's 2200 RPM, which is pretty close to in line with what a lot of the big Lycomings turn. 2200 RPM is a standard cruise point on my Aztec (although I'll run higher to get more power depending on the altitude I'm flying at).

Also, these little diesel engines run insanely high boost, and the turbos aren't able to maintain power at altitude the same way as gas engines are, because the turbochargers simply can't get the sorts of pressure ratios up high that you'd need to maintain that. So, you aren't able to keep that power all the way up to altitude, unless you get into some sort of sequential turbo setup. So, these turbodiesels tend to be more along the lines of somewhere in between a naturally aspirated and a turbocharged gasoline engine, but their altitude performance is still not as good as a turbocharged gasoline engine. It might be able to keep up in cruise under certain conditions, but that would be running the thing firewalled, and assume a low power setting on the gas engine. Your maximum performance figures would suffer quite a bit.

All of these comments ignore the hurdles of getting the FAA to give their OK on it, which takes a lot of work.

Yeah, like YOU know anything... :D

The Rotax engines for light sport are pretty impressive, in terms of power to weight and fuel consumption.

...also, impressive in rate of failure.
 
Yeah, like YOU know anything... :D

I learned long ago that actually doing this stuff for a living doesn't mean people will listen to anything I have to say unless it's what they want to hear. ;)
 
...also, impressive in rate of failure.

Care to back that one up with some statistics? I don't think that the Rotax 912 has any more failures than a dinosaur aviation engine. If, you lump the 2 stroke Rotax's in there, sure. But the 4 stroke 912, doubt it.
 
...also, impressive in rate of failure.

If you're counting the snowmobile engines that have been used in experimental aircraft through the years, yes... But I think the 912 and 914 being used in many of today's light sport aircraft are approaching the reliability of our trusty Continentals and Lycomings. :yes:
 
Care to back up that the Rotax engines are approaching the reliability of Lycomings and Continentals? And give me a statistic that's useful, like failures per number of flight hours per engine. Failures per engines in the field is invalid, as I've yet to see someone flying their Rotax plane as much as these 135 operators are flying their Navajos, 402s, etc.

I'm with Spike. There are certain engines that I just won't fly behind. Continentals and Lycomings are the only two on the list of engines I will fly behind.
 
Care to back up that the Rotax engines are approaching the reliability of Lycomings and Continentals? And give me a statistic that's useful, like failures per number of flight hours per engine. Failures per engines in the field is invalid, as I've yet to see someone flying their Rotax plane as much as these 135 operators are flying their Navajos, 402s, etc.
In my homebuilt aircraft accident analyses, I take a bit of a different approach: Its impossible to know how many of a given model of engine are installed, so I look at how often the engine is the cause of the accident.

Out of 1,963 homebuilt accidents, about 54% had "Traditional" aircraft engines, and about 7.5% had Rotax 912s.

For the accidents involving aircraft with traditional engines, the engine was the cause of the accident in about 12.8% of the cases. For the Rotax 912-powered aircraft, the Rotax was the cause about 17.3% of the time.

This was actually the best score among the non-traditional engines.

Looking at the causes of the engine failures, the Rotax had a much lower rate of internal failures and a much lower rate of carb ice accidents. It came out second-best when comparing fuel problems on the engine side of the firewall and oil system problems.

However, the Rotax also had a higher rate of what the NTSB calls "Undetermined" engine failures. These could be transient problems, or cases where the pilot messed up and won't admit it.

Ron Wanttaja
 
In my homebuilt aircraft accident analyses, I take a bit of a different approach: Its impossible to know how many of a given model of engine are installed, so I look at how often the engine is the cause of the accident.

Ahh, very nice. We went from light sport Rotax to experimental Rotax. Very nice bait and switch there. The perpetual "I'll never fly behind that snowmobile engine" myth continues, from uneducated people.
 
The thing I fund humorous is that defenders of the non-traditional engines never can provide the statistics that are relevant, instead substitute something that they can find that doesn't actually give a MTBF.
 
I admit, I am going anecdotal on this.

Sorry.
 
The thing I fund humorous is that defenders of the non-traditional engines never can provide the statistics that are relevant, instead substitute something that they can find that doesn't actually give a MTBF.

Innocent until proven guilty. Don't go spouting that its an unsafe engine, without proving it. Otherwise, we'll just start sending people to the lethal injection table, prior to having the trial.
 
Ahh, very nice. We went from light sport Rotax to experimental Rotax. Very nice bait and switch there. The perpetual "I'll never fly behind that snowmobile engine" myth continues, from uneducated people.
If you have equivalent statistics from certified Rotaxes, please post them. I posted the numbers for the Experimental/Amateur-Built world because I already had them.

When you compare the results for the Rotax four-strokes to other types of non-traditional engines, the 912 comes out looking pretty good. I'm personally convinced it's close enough in reliability to a certified engine. The NTSB was unable to find a cause for the engine failure the majority of the time, which indicates to me that most of the problems are either fuel or operator related.


Ron Wanttaja
 
If you have equivalent statistics from certified Rotaxes, please post them. I posted the numbers for the Experimental/Amateur-Built world because I already had them.

When you compare the results for the Rotax four-strokes to other types of non-traditional engines, the 912 comes out looking pretty good. I'm personally convinced it's close enough in reliability to a certified engine. The NTSB was unable to find a cause for the engine failure the majority of the time, which indicates to me that most of the problems are either fuel or operator related.


Ron Wanttaja

Fair enough. I just tend to get excited when people mouth off about the fact that people fly with "snowmobile" engines in their planes. Those same people then go on to bash anything any everything with that engine, regardless of if they have flown behind one or not.

I'd love to have the resources to do some work with the Rotax engine. I think it would be very much possible to get an STC to fit a 912 to something along the lines of a Cessna 150/152, and have a very nice airplane.
 
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