SR22 crash in Ohio 11-6-2014

Discussion in 'Lessons Learned' started by Swampfox201, May 21, 2017.

  1. Swampfox201

    Swampfox201 Line Up and Wait

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    Todd W.
    The final report came out this last week. The cause of the accident was never really in doubt. Having lost a friend the question in my mind is did they pull the chute or not? The report is inconclusive and evidence points both ways.

    Fly safe everyone and don't let yourself get in a situation like this crew did.

    https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...ID=20141107X75136&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA





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  2. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    Wonder what cirrus would be potentially in store for if caps was used at altitude but failed. I bet that would be a massive blow to the company on many levels.

    Rocket fuel expended but everything in place gives me chills. Assuming I read that correctly.
     
  3. Swampfox201

    Swampfox201 Line Up and Wait

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    They go into depth on the scratch marks on the CAPS handle which doesn't mean anything to me because I'm not familiar with the airplane and how the handle works. With that said the evidence in the report to me says they pulled with the exception they couldn't find any rocket residue on the tail which I guess happens on a normal CAPS pull?




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  4. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    Handle is like lawn mower handle. Attached to a cable. 45 lbs of pull required to launch caps. Any scratch marks I would imagine attitude be from impact.

    Rocket blasts a hole in the top of the empenage, drags the chute out. I would imagine that rocket would leave a lot of evidence on the back of the plane add it exits.
     
  5. citizen5000

    citizen5000 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It was a 2001 Cirrus SR22. FIKI didn't come out until 2009. The older chute rocket may have discharged on impact and would explain why the chute was not unpacked.

    Two critical thing to ponder. How could so much aviation experience as was present in the plane knowingly fly into such conditions and do it without de-icing protection and then once in trouble not employ the one safety feature that could have saved them?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  6. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    I had that thought too. Doesn't make sense.
     
  7. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    By 2014 the CAPS training ("pull early, pull often") was well on the way to being institutionalized; there were only 3 fatal Cirrus accidents that year - well down from the 2011 peak of 16.

    But it's not difficult to construct a scenario where the chute handle was not pulled, especially since that psychological reluctance is exactly what Cirrus was actively trying to train out at the time. Let's remember we have a couple of pilots here that launched IFR at night into forecast icing in a non-FIKI airplane.

    And then confirmed that forecast when they flew into it. Probability is whatever ice they picked up before they got above the cloud tops was still on the airframe when they started their descent. I have no idea how well a non-TKS Cirrus handles ice, but I think these folks were already half-way to trouble before they put the nose down.

    Like any other piece of equipment on an airplane, using the chute means you have to have imagined needing to use it, and integrated that into your training, emergency procedures and briefings.

    Flying in IMC at night, trying to control an ice loaded airframe between stall and exceeding Vne, might not be the best time to expect to recall the one piece of equipment that can save you, if you've never thought about the need for it since the day you bought the plane. If it was, Cirrus wouldn't need to train.
     
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  8. Tantalum

    Tantalum Cleared for Takeoff

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  9. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I doubt it will seriously hurt them since it would be an individual case, not a class action or case with multiple similar alleged chute failures.

    Assuming there is a lawsuit, I'd expect Cirrus to settle and insurance will cover the payout. I don't think you'll hear much more about it.
     
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  10. citizen5000

    citizen5000 Ejection Handle Pulled

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  11. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    The materials report in the docket has a little more in-depth description of the damage to the CAPS handle, cable, and holder. While they don't state it outright, it reads to me like the impact damage to the handle correlates with the impact damage on the holder, implying that the handle was still stowed on impact.

    Nauga,
    and a moment of silence
     
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  12. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    Is that what the final NTSB report concluded?

    Looks like the rocket fired in the picture in the attached article, which also states (accurate?) the chute was repacked under the supervision of a Cirrus Service Center.

    "...At this point, the FAA has been on site for an initial look-see, and the NTSB is expected to investigate, as well. This is the first attempted deployment of a repacked CAPS assembly, and of course, the first failure of its kind. This repack was conducted fully under the control of the Cirrus Service Center program and the supervising parties at a time when Cirrus and BRS (the company primarily responsible for pioneering this technology -- despite Cirrus's attempts to suggest otherwise) were involved in legal problems arising from a number of IP and financial issues. These days, BRS has a much larger role in the repack process and in the prep of the systems that are upgraded at the time of repack.

    Buzz among the Cirrus community has been extensive and a number of folks seeking more information from ANN, have indicated that their faith in the CAPS system has been shaken somewhat... and certainly in the repack process undertaken by Cirrus. One Cirrus owner noted that, "I'm sure as hell not going to tell my wife about this..."

    The repack process, fairly expensive, requires the airplane to be down for a considerable period of time (especially for first generation Cirrus airframes), and is reportedly much more expensive than what was hoped for, by BRS, before Cirrus and BRS had their falling out (and, in fact, Valentine noted that when he started researching the repack process, he would have preferred that BRS undertake it... but, "Cirrus wouldn't allow it.") Regardless, Valentine loves his airplane and looks forward to fixing the damage done and getting a proper repack conducted at a later date."
     
  13. citizen5000

    citizen5000 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The repack was done "under control of the Cirrus Service Center program" sounds like someone trying to build a legal case not where the repack was done. The poster even complains "despite Cirrus's attempts to suggest otherwise" is also someone trying to tag Cirrus with responsibility despite Cirrus not doing the repack themselves.

    Cirrus does not tell customers where they are to get their repacks done. BRS started to offer repacks back in 2010. Some Cirrus Factory Authorized centers offer the service. Woodland Aviation at Yolo Muni for example now offers it. Cutter Aviation in Texas also does. http://cutteraviation.com/aircraft-...irrus-aircraft-parachute-repack-and-services/

    The primary reason for the repack is to replace the rocket. The rocket has a limited life.
     
  14. Swampfox201

    Swampfox201 Line Up and Wait

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    Thanks. Like I said I'm not familiar with how the handle works or what it looks like.


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  15. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Have to also take any blather from "ANN", since we all know who that is... with more than a box full of salt, especially about Cirrus products.
     
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  16. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...ID=20130520X84445&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=IA

    "The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this incident to be:
    The failure of the airplane’s parachute to deploy when activated during a loss of control in
    cruise flight due to the dynamic maneuvering of the airplane at the time of the activation,
    which exceeded the parachute system’s certification requirements.
    " [emphasis added]

    I wouldn't trust Jim Campbell's reporting on this any more than I'd trust him to repack my 'chute with his feet.

    Nauga,
    and his radial bias
     
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  17. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    If you are going to shill for Cirrus, at least be forthright about your statements. Cirrus may not tell an owner which specific shop to have the repack done, but they certainly have control over who can do it.

    From an article in Aviation Consumer:


    "...Many owners naturally assume the CAPS replacement can be performed by any Cirrus service center, but this isn't the case. That's because of the specialized work and certificated training that tags along with the parachute repack. Due to the propellant-powered rocket that's part of the parachute deployment, the work is partially governed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. As if FAA oversight isn't enough government to answer to, the ATF performs regular inspections of the shops, who are required to have special facilities equipped with cabinets to securely store the rockets, among other requirements. Techs who handle the rocket are background checked. Further, each technician that performs a CAPS replacement is exclusively trained and licenced by Cirrus. Unlike most airframe work, the parachute repack process can't be taught from one technican to the other on the shop level. Each needs to receive specialized training at Cirrus.
     
  18. citizen5000

    citizen5000 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    No one is shilling for Cirrus. But the disinformation on the company and products seems to never end. Cirrus is not to blame for these pilots flying into known ice and killing themselves. And Cirrus is unquestioned in their efforts to give customers the training and the equipment to be as safe as possible.
     
  19. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route PoA Supporter

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    This thread got confusing in a hurry, suddenly switching from the Ohio fatal crash in icing to the Texas nonfatal incident involving a chute.

    The NTSB report for the Ohio crash left it undetermined whether the chute handle had been pulled. The NTSB tried hard to figure that out and couldn't. At least that's how I read it.

    And for the NTSB's purpose of finding the cause of the crash it doesn't matter -- the Ohio crash pilot planned poorly and chose to fly night IFR into icing conditions, in a plane that had no special ice equipment, and that was the clear cause.
     
  20. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Pattern Altitude

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    Methinks the lady doth protest too much...
     
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