Sr 22

[Aztec Driver]

Well, I finally decided to try out the SR 22 at LNS Advantage Aero. A very nice aircraft. Of course, as new as it is, it should be. Very superb handling and exceptionally comfortable. Very slick, requiring a little advanced planning for descent and landing. Only flew around a little to get the feel of it, but it is sure an aircraft I could get used to, if it weren't for the fact that they are expensive. Unfortunately, my budget runs more toward an older plane.

Had to wait forever to get in and out of LNS. 10 -12 planes lined up for takeoff, and Tower and ground Frequencies were non-stop.

 

[AdamZ]

Imagine the line at the hold short next week at Tobys fly In.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Imagine the line at the hold short next week at Tobys fly In.

Wish I could be there. It'd be great to see some of you, and finally put faces to the letters. Have a great time for me.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Imagine the line at the hold short next week at Tobys fly In.

When we met Anthony a few weeks ago for lunch at KLNS, I remember a Cessna calling the tower and being told he was number 7 for departure. I was on the grass opposite the west ramp. I called the tower, told him where I was and requested a departure to the southeast. He gave me immediate clearance and told me to stay over the grass between taxiway D and the runway. 10 seconds later I was airborne

Rotors Rule!

 

[Ken Ibold]

When we met Anthony a few weeks ago for lunch at KLNS, I remember a Cessna calling the tower and being told he was number 7 for departure. I was on the grass opposite the west ramp. I called the tower, told him where I was and requested a departure to the southeast. He gave me immediate clearance and told me to stay over the grass between taxiway D and the runway. 10 seconds later I was airborne

Rotors Rule!

I liked this one: "Cessna 123, hold short, landing traffic, 2 mile final, a Seminole. Pitts 3QQ cleared for immediate takeoff, right turn before midfield on the upwind please."

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I liked this one: "Cessna 123, hold short, landing traffic, 2 mile final, a Seminole. Pitts 3QQ cleared for immediate takeoff, right turn before midfield on the upwind please."

I like that, Ken.

I've gotten similar instructions in helicopters -- they'll give me a clearance and request a turn as soon as I am able. Which doesn't take much time at all...

 

[glpilot]

Well, I finally decided to try out the SR 22 at LNS Advantage Aero. A very nice aircraft. Of course, as new as it is, it should be. Very superb handling and exceptionally comfortable. Very slick, requiring a little advanced planning for descent and landing. Only flew around a little to get the feel of it, but it is sure an aircraft I could get used to, if it weren't for the fact that they are expensive. Unfortunately, my budget runs more toward an older plane.

Had to wait forever to get in and out of LNS. 10 -12 planes lined up for takeoff, and Tower and ground Frequencies were non-stop.

Bryon, how was it getting used to flying the SR 22 with the control wheel not really being a control wheel but a joystick sticking out of the side?

 

[Aztec Driver]

Bryon, how was it getting used to flying the SR 22 with the control wheel not really being a control wheel but a joystick sticking out of the side?

"Getting used to" is a strong phrase. I only occasionally overcontrolled it. It does have a nice feel, and with time, I may get used to it. Right now, I can't wait to get completely checked out in it so I can fly it somewhere reasonably long distance. (You know, have to REALLY check it out in the storms, ice, and other stuff... heck, it has a parachute, right?

 

[woodstock]

here's a stupid question - if regular jets have something at least remotely close to a steering wheel - the yoke - why do the various smaller planes have joysticks either b/w your knees or off to the side?

 

[gismo]

here's a stupid question - if regular jets have something at least remotely close to a steering wheel - the yoke - why do the various smaller planes have joysticks either b/w your knees or off to the side?

There are many "regular jets" with sidesticks, most notably the Airbus line. Both the sidestick and center sticks improve the pilot's ability to see and access the panel equipment.

 

[Ken Ibold]

There are many "regular jets" with sidesticks, most notably the Airbus line. Both the sidestick and center sticks improve the pilot's ability to see and access the panel equipment.

But center sticks are by far the coolest.

 

[Anthony]

Bryon,

Did you have to adjust to the landing attitude on the SR22? From what I hear it lands much more flat than a Tiger.

 

[poadeleted20]

Did you have to adjust to the landing attitude on the SR22? From what I hear it lands much more flat than a Tiger.

Don't know if it's different on an SR22, but I found an SR20 with full flaps touches down nicely in nearly the same attitude as a Tiger with full flaps -- only a tad less nose up. The difference is that you have a bit less tail-ground clearance with the SR20, so you have to be more careful not to get the nose way up and drop it on.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Bryon,

Did you have to adjust to the landing attitude on the SR22? From what I hear it lands much more flat than a Tiger.

Didn't seem too different than the Tiger. Only had one landing so far, though. Absolutely hate the electric trim.

 

[poadeleted20]

Didn't seem too different than the Tiger. Only had one landing so far, though. Absolutely hate the electric trim.

What I dislike are the spring-centering on the stick and the aileron-rudder interconnect.

 

[glpilot]

What I dislike are the spring-centering on the stick and the aileron-rudder interconnect.

Aileron-rudder interconnect?
You mean you dont need to use your feet to fly???

 

[Anthony]

Don't know if it's different on an SR22, but I found an SR20 with full flaps touches down nicely in nearly the same attitude as a Tiger with full flaps -- only a tad less nose up. The difference is that you have a bit less tail-ground clearance with the SR20, so you have to be more careful not to get the nose way up and drop it on.

A friend of mine (CFII) from back east flies a SR22 a lot. He went to the training that the factory gives. The Cirrus instructor training him smacked the tail on the first landing which required the plane to be grounded for a major repair. The Cirrus instructor was fired on the spot.

 

[SCCutler]

In my extremely-limited Cirrus time (in a -20), I found a well-balanced and enjoyable bird. The only thing I really do not care for is the electric-only trim, as I can never seem to get trim *quite* right in any plane with it (including, f'rinstance, Katana/Eclipse and any regular plane with electric trim).

Always seems to me that, when you need just a skosh of trim, by the time the motor overcomes any minute binding in the trim system, it overshoots.

But I do like the Cirrus!

 

[Aztec Driver]

What I dislike are the spring-centering on the stick and the aileron-rudder interconnect.

OK, you're right. I didn't like those either.

 

[poadeleted20]

Aileron-rudder interconnect?
You mean you dont need to use your feet to fly???

Yes, you do need your feet, but you're often fighting the ARI force. For example, on climbout, you need right rudder, but the application of force to the rudder pushes the stick right, too, which has to be fought with left stick force to hold the wings level. Same deal in a crosswind landing -- you need more roll force into the wind than would otherwise be required to hold the bank angle needed to zero the drift due to the roll input produced by the opposite rudder to point the nose down the runway. Note also that the ARI gives a fixed amount of rudder input directly proportional to stick deflection. Unfortunately, the amount of rudder needed to coordinate a turn varies with bank angle, so you may need to add more rudder (or even use a touch of opposite rudder). Finally, watching the stick move left and right while steering on the ground (as an old Grumman driver, I use as much rudder as possible to go as easy as possible on the brakes) is somewhat disconcerting.

 

[Iceman]

I don't like the side yoke in the Cirrus. I find the trim is way too sensitive for extended handflying especially in actual or simulated instrument conditions. With your attention diverted for even a small moment, getting the aircraft into the beginnings of an unusual attitude is not uncommon. The Columbia has a true side stick and is much easier to trim including the nice led trim indicators as opposed to the low-tech Cirrus solution lining up the markings.

Well the cirrus I flew a few years ago had the worst trim of any plane I have flown, including 152's...joking, I think . I'm sure the new ones don't have that problem...after 2k of them they have probably had a few comments about that. Most of the owners have to turn on the AP just to trim out the plane, unless they have mastered the "flick".

 

[Steve]

The local SR22 owner here was complaining about the trim on his plane being snafu today. He said the two annuals on it since he bought it new left the control trim so bad the A/P wouldn't stay engaged until he tweaked the ground adjustable tabs (he has to take it to a Cirrus authorized service center for warranty coverage). I didn't climb in the plane to check, but he complained that it didn't have aileron and rudder trim available in the cockpit. Maybe he hasn't found the trim controls. I haven't been invited to sit in it so I'm in no position to argue with him. The trailing edges of the ailerons, flaps, and wing tips certainly don't line up sitting on the ramp.

Well the cirrus I flew a few years ago had the worst trim of any plane I have flown, including 152's...joking, I think . I'm sure the new ones don't have that problem...after 2k of them they have probably had a few comments about that. Most of the owners have to turn on the AP just to trim out the plane, unless they have mastered the "flick".

 

[gismo]

I didn't climb in the plane to check, but he complained that it didn't have aileron and rudder trim available in the cockpit. Maybe he hasn't found the trim controls.

There's a coolie hat on top of each sidestick that controls roll and pitch trim.

 

[Steve]

You'd think he'd have known that after two years of ownership. I'll quiz him about that tomorrow if I see him.

There's a coolie hat on top of each sidestick that controls roll and pitch trim.

 

[Henning]

here's a stupid question - if regular jets have something at least remotely close to a steering wheel - the yoke - why do the various smaller planes have joysticks either b/w your knees or off to the side?

Which came first, sticks or wheels? Personnally I like a stick between the legs and the throttle in my left hand configuration. If it's a side stick, I'd prefer it in my right hand, but have flown them goofy handed with no issue. Yoke is my least favorite, but I can make it work as well.

 

[wesleyj]

personally i found the darn thing a little to twitchy for my tastes

 

[mrottler]

I must join in and say that my experience with the SR-22 was limited to a 20 minute free demo flight (every few months Cirrus sends an SR-22 over to UND for these flights). I found the side stick to be a little uncomfortable for the first two minutes or so of the flight, but after that it was as comfortable if not more comfortable than the Arrow I was flying at the time. It seemed to be very similar to driving a car. I didn't get the chance to play with the trip that much and we had a CAVU day, so no instrument stuff either. I would say the most impressive thing that I found with it was the "spin-proof" wing. Well...that and the fact that the instructor used the door as a big speed brake upon landing.

That's my $.02

 

[Pilawt]

The only thing I really do not care for is the electric-only trim

I don't like the sound of that. Single-point failure? What do you do in the event of total electrical failure?

-- Pilawt

 

[deafsound]

I got a chance to fly an SR-22 down in Florida a few weeks ago, and fell in love with it. I had no problems with the stick, rudder, or electric trim. I thought I would dislike the electric trim (never use them on cessnas), but once you learn how to "flick it", it seems to work pretty well. I loved the view from the cockpit---it seems like it's a bit higher than a cessna or piper. I liked the speed we were flying, fer sure. I'd buy one if I could afford it.
Landing was a bit flatter than what I'm used to, but every new airplane is a little different and takes a bit of getting used to, so no biggie.
I didn't try the AP, or get into the avionics at all, but I'm sure they're sweet too.
Zoooooooom

 

[poadeleted20]

I would say the most impressive thing that I found with it was the "spin-proof" wing.

While I have no real idea how easy it is to enter a spin in an SR-20/22, the wing is most definitely not spin-proof. The airplane can be spun (and was during certification testing), but it's not legal to do so intentionally. Further, in a deal with the FAA aircraft certification folks, the BRS parachute was substituted for the full spin recovery testing normally required by Part 23, which was started but never completed. So it is indeed possible to spin a Cirrus, and if you happen to end up in a spin, the only fully proven recovery technique (and the one recommended in the POH) is to deploy the chute -- an expensive way to recover from a spin.

Well...that and the fact that the instructor used the door as a big speed brake upon landing.

I wonder what the POH says about that.

 

[gismo]

I got a chance to fly an SR-22 down in Florida a few weeks ago, and fell in love with it. I had no problems with the stick, rudder, or electric trim. I thought I would dislike the electric trim (never use them on cessnas), but once you learn how to "flick it", it seems to work pretty well.

I've tried pretty hard to get an SR-22 trimmed properly by "flicking" the trim switch, but it always seems to end up a little bit off. And more than one SR-22 savvy pilot has told me the only way to get the trim right is to engage the autopilot and let it set the trim.

 

[Aztec Driver]

I've tried pretty hard to get an SR-22 trimmed properly by "flicking" the trim switch, but it always seems to end up a little bit off. And more than one SR-22 savvy pilot has told me the only way to get the trim right is to engage the autopilot and let it set the trim.

That is what I ended up doing.

 

[deafsound]

if you happen to end up in a spin, the only fully proven recovery technique (and the one recommended in the POH) is to deploy the chute -- an expensive way to recover from a spin.

Of course that is the only FAA certified way to get out of a spin in a cirrus, but there have been people who spun their cirrus and used normal spin recovery to get out of them.
Hopefully I wouldn't get into a spin in a cirrus, but if I did, I probably wouldn't just pull the chute right off the bat.

BTW, had no problem with the trim, and didn't use the autopilot.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I loved the view from the cockpit---it seems like it's a bit higher than a cessna or piper.
...
Landing was a bit flatter than what I'm used to, but every new airplane is a little different and takes a bit of getting used to, so no biggie.

Both of the above are illusions due to the sloping cowl. The view sure is nice, isn't it? The DA40 has an even better one, but not as fast. The landing attitude is probably about the same as any other GA single, it just looks flatter. Many new Cirrus pilots are looking for more of a C182 look at landing and end up striking the tail because you have to have a Cirrus about 30 degrees nose up to get that view!

First time I flew a Cirrus I was blown away that I actually had to level out at 3,000 before I was cleared higher. Too bad the insurance is ridiculous, even if you can afford the plane. If I had that much dough I'd buy a DA42 instead, much prefer the G1000 to the Avidyne.

 

[poadeleted20]

...there have been people who spun their cirrus

Hmmm...either the Cirrus is a lot easier to spin unintentionally than I thought (so much for "spin-proof"), or there are some very dangerous-minded pilots flying Cirri and doing it intentionally. Neither would be a good situation. One of the very first production SR-20 accidents involved what the NTSB concluded was a misguided attempt to perform aerobatics. More grist for the "nut that holds the stick" hypothesis for the comparatively high Cirrus accident rate.

 

[wsuffa]

Changing the subject a bit, I recently met one of the test pilots for Mooney who told me that he's taken a Mooney through 4 turns of spin. One day he hopes to set a record....

 

[Henning]

Hmmm...either the Cirrus is a lot easier to spin unintentionally than I thought (so much for "spin-proof"), or there are some very dangerous-minded pilots flying Cirri and doing it intentionally. Neither would be a good situation. One of the very first production SR-20 accidents involved what the NTSB concluded was a misguided attempt to perform aerobatics. More grist for the "nut that holds the stick" hypothesis for the comparatively high Cirrus accident rate.

I would most defenitly spin it, or at least break it over if I owned it (If it ain't 2 turns, it ain't a spin. Less than 2 turns is a spin entry. You are at very low almost no risk of being unrecoverable in the first turn). Unlike ice, this is a situation where a one time exposure can be of a learning and safety benefit. Driving it into the realms where spinning is potential, nose up high power clean & low power dirty and feeling how the plane reacts and responds, and connecting that with the moment the wing tucks and that physical sensation, it creates an awareness, a link with "It feels like it did just before..., so I better do something about it now".

I wouldn't go climbing into the flight levels and haul-n-kick and see how many times she'll go around before 1500, but I would sure let her tip a wing for me. You never really know how far you can go till you go too far. I think that's critical knowledge.

 

[poadeleted20]

I would most defenitly spin it, or at least break it over if I owned it (If it ain't 2 turns, it ain't a spin. Less than 2 turns is a spin entry.

I don't think you can find that definition in the FAR's, so I will not intentionally initiate even an incipient spin in an aircraft which has "Intentional Spins Prohibited" in the limitations section.

You are at very low almost no risk of being unrecoverable in the first turn).

Probably true, but it still isn't exactly legal.

Unlike ice, this is a situation where a one time exposure can be of a learning and safety benefit. Driving it into the realms where spinning is potential, nose up high power clean & low power dirty and feeling how the plane reacts and responds, and connecting that with the moment the wing tucks and that physical sensation, it creates an awareness, a link with "It feels like it did just before..., so I better do something about it now".

The FAA has considered this, but after reviewing a lot of decades of data, decided that focusing on spin prevention training rather than spin recovery training results in a lower overall accident rate.

 

[TMetzinger]

I just went to a safety seminar given by Cirrus on how to identify and safe ballistic recovery chutes in accidents.

The presenter, Mike Busch, indicated that Cirrus test pilots had spun and recovered the aircraft using conventional techniques, but that the parachute would save you at around 600 feet, while a spin recovery at that altitude is unlikely. So Cirrus tells you to pull the handle, no matter what.

By the way, in over 60% of Cirrus parachute deployments - the airplane was repaired and is flying today. So pulling the chute does NOT automatically result in a destroyed airplane that you walk away from. It greatly depends on where and how you come down.

One final note. Flying with the parachute handle safed (pinned) on a Cirrus is flying with an unairworthy aircraft. The system must be operative in order for the airplane to be airworthy.

 

[poadeleted20]

The presenter, Mike Busch, indicated that Cirrus test pilots had spun and recovered the aircraft using conventional techniques, but that the parachute would save you at around 600 feet, while a spin recovery at that altitude is unlikely.

Keep in mind that while Cirrus test pilots have spun and recovered the SR20, the full series of spin tests required for normal category certification was never completed. That means you have no way to tell if the spin mode you enter is recoverable, so when...

Cirrus tells you to pull the handle, no matter what.

...it's good advice.

By the way, in over 60% of Cirrus parachute deployments - the airplane was repaired and is flying today. So pulling the chute does NOT automatically result in a destroyed airplane that you walk away from. It greatly depends on where and how you come down.

Regardless of that, I've heard that each of those planes had to be sent back to the factory for many months for the repairs, and the insurers paid off the owners for a total constructive loss. Also, I've not heard whether any insurers are willing to write policies on the repaired planes -- it's possible, but I've not heard it, and it's possible the premium they want would be higher than for an undamaged plane since there's very little if any data on the long-term reliability of a repaired composite plane.