SR-20 down at Crystal Lake IL

Not only that, they are all good-looking people who are smart as hell with a great sense of humor, have forgotten more about aviation than most pilots will ever know and can fly the box it came in. Or so I'm told.

Ted DuPuis said:
Which is funny, because the G5 pilots I talk to have typically been very nice people who say, regarding their aircraft, "It beats working."
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wabower said:
Not only that, they are all good-looking people who are smart as hell with a great sense of humor, have forgotten more about aviation than most pilots will ever know and can fly the box it came in. Or so I'm told.
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I was buying it until the "good-looking people" part. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
I think it's better phrased, "You have now demonstrated the absolute bare minimum required by law and good sense to carry yourself and passengers aloft. We recommend you continue your training and learning to move away from the bottom mark on the scale."

:) :) :)
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I like that, Nate. :thumbsup:

Of course, the short version would be: "Don't **** up!"
 
The audio is available at Live ATC:

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/n223cd-sr-20-crash-chicago-11262011-audio/

tower: "3cd say intentions"
3cd: "I think I am about tempted.... is there a better field with better visibility as I don't want to get in there and get stuck all day"
tower: "3cd, do you want to talk to chicago approach because they can help with vectors or are you....
3cd: "no I think I am ok doing it either way but uhh I was just uhh do you have a uhh a later airport or a report today"
tower: "3cd, maintain vfr standby......"

Depressing. It sounds like his indecision about how to deal with the situation was likely a significant factor in the accident.

But what's the solution for this guy once he's stuck in IMC? Advise ATC he's not IFR rated and ask for vectors to the nearest field reporting VFR conditions?
 
TedR3 said:
But what's the solution for this guy once he's stuck in IMC? Advise ATC he's not IFR rated and ask for vectors to the nearest field reporting VFR conditions?
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ANC

Aviate - still got to keep the blue side up (either hand fly it or A/P)
Navigate - got to point it somewhere
Communicate - fess up and let ATC help you. ATC cannot help you if you do not tell them what is going on.
 
That recording is both depressing and infuriating. A classic example of "hazardous attitudes." Four people died because this guy pushed his limits (with pax on board!) way too hard and crashed and burned. And the rest of us have to deal with the public that thinks "small planes are dangerous."

It is enlightening to compare this recording with others where the pilot asked for ATC assistance and survived a VFR-into-IMC with a lesson learned instead of four body bags.

3cd: "coming in let me see here.... visual flight rules uhh was wondering if we were going to available for landing"
tower: "223cd, the field is IFR, uhh say intentions"
3cd: "dupage tower, I just flew over your field I appologize, I didn't realize I was going that fast"
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:(
 
Just reading the mini-transcripts you guys provided has me all sorts of ****ed off now. I can't listen.

Better decisions, his passengers wouldn't be dead. Sigh.
 
*sigh* He was more concerned about launching again than getting down.

Now we know why he was off course.
 
TedR3 said:
The audio is available at Live ATC:

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/n223cd-sr-20-crash-chicago-11262011-audio/

tower: "3cd say intentions"
3cd: "I think I am about tempted.... is there a better field with better visibility as I don't want to get in there and get stuck all day"
tower: "3cd, do you want to talk to chicago approach because they can help with vectors or are you....
3cd: "no I think I am ok doing it either way but uhh I was just uhh do you have a uhh a later airport or a report today"
tower: "3cd, maintain vfr standby......"

Depressing. It sounds like his indecision about how to deal with the situation was likely a significant factor in the accident.

But what's the solution for this guy once he's stuck in IMC? Advise ATC he's not IFR rated and ask for vectors to the nearest field reporting VFR conditions?
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I feel nauseated.
 
Listening to the ATC audio now... I think it's past the part where we last hear from him.

My first impression is that the guy didn't understand (or take seriously) the weather outlook for the day in that area... if he bothered checking in the first place. I'd have probably cancelled... it might have been do-able, but the odds of the vis not getting steadily worse on such a day are slim.

But it happens- I've come close, myself. Gotta probe the corners of the envelope to really understand its limits. But I was surprised that he didn't just forget DuPage right away, and ask for vectors to the nearest VFR field .Inconvenient, but better than blundering into the unknown, taking his daughters and friend with him. He didn't seem to know what might be available; not even a vague idea. He fished for opinions from ATC, but was still fixated on DuPage. In other words: he apparently launched on an iffy day without an alternate plan.

When he asked for the identifier for Chicago Exec I knew he was GPS-dependent; when he explained that he'd just overshot duPage (much to his surprise) I knew he was behind the airplane (even with a GPS); and when he described being in and out of clouds like he was along for the ride and not in command, I got a very bad feeling.

I don't know exactly what brought down that airplane, but I am pretty sure the PIC was not prepared to deal with the conditions. I blame his training and personal discipline habits, not the airplane.
 
While I understand why student pilots are usually not instructed on A/P use, why, of why would an SR-20 checkout not include a full checkout on this far more capable lifesaving tool than the CAPS??

Or was this guy convinced he didn't need an autopilot?

We'll never know, but anyone reading this thread -- if you get checked out in a new airplane don't be satisfied until you know and can employ all on-board systems.

If you hear "Don't worry about that -- you're flying VFR so that's no use.." from a CFI, end the flight and hire a different CFI.
 
TedR3 said:
But what's the solution for this guy once he's stuck in IMC? Advise ATC he's not IFR rated and ask for vectors to the nearest field reporting VFR conditions?
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In an A/P equipped airplane:


  1. Turn on the autopilot. Set to wings level or let it maintain current heading.
  2. Adjust power to maintain altitude or climb if you've been scud running (Climb)
  3. Call ATC to Confess
  4. Comply with ATC instructions.
In an non-A/P airplane:

  1. Release the yoke and maintain wings level with rudder (if heading isn't changing you are wings level)
  2. Adjust power to maintain altitude or climb if you've been scud running (Climb)
  3. Call ATC to Confess
  4. Comply with ATC instructions.

Why release the yoke? You will likely cause more harm than good if you're VFR and now in IMC. Don't worry about the ball -- a death spiral is a more likely outcome than a skidding stall in this case.
 
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I was in a fairly similar situation, except I didn't fly into the clouds. I landed 80 miles short of my destination where the weather was still reasonable and I rented a car and drove the rest of the way. That was honestly a pretty easy call despite getthereitis and less than 100 hours of experience at the time.
 
In GA there have always been the 'fork tailed doctor killers' - right from the Wright Brothers on... As time goes on the brand changes, the tail plane changes, the technology changes, but the pilots do not...

Type A personality, always gets his way, has to be somewhere without fail, and believes implicitly that his quick wits and daring and check-book can get him out of anything... The John Kennedy syndrome...
I do not care about these pilots, if they want to kill themselves so be it - but they take other people with them (damn)...

denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
In GA there have always been the 'fork tailed doctor killers' - right from the Wright Brothers on... As time goes on the brand changes, the tail plane changes, the technology changes, but the pilots do not...

Type A personality, always gets his way, has to be somewhere without fail, and believes implicitly that his quick wits and daring and check-book can get him out of anything... The John Kennedy syndrome...
I do not care about these pilots, if they want to kill themselves so be it - but they take other people with them (damn)...

denny-o
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Totally agree Denny. We unfairly blame inanimate objects for our shortcomings as humans. We try to shift the blame for our own poor judgment, and stupidity.

It's like blaming the fork because Rosie O'Donnel is fat.
 
On the Red Board someone dug up the exchange that is missing on the LiveATC combined feed (possibly drowned out by the pilot chatter on Unicom):

TWR: Three charlie delta, you wanna land at DuPage?
3CD: If possible that would be wonderful.
TWR: Alright.
...
TWR: One charlie delta, DuPage Tower.
TWR: Three charlie delta, tower.
3CD: Three charlie delta.
TWR: Field in sight, sir?
3CD: Ah, Cirrus SR20.
TWR: Do you have the field, the, ah, DuPage airport in sight?
3CD: Ah, yeah, we just flew past.
TWR: Make a right one eighty and land two zero right, wind two zero zero at one five.
3CD: Right one eighty two zero right, DuPage Tower thank you, three charlie delta.
3CD: But no big deal. (appears to be talking to passengers and inadvertently keyed mic)
3CD: mic keyed (3 separate times), one indiscernable phrase (appears to be talking to passengers and inadvertently keyed mic)
3CD: I'm trying to stay, ah. (appears to be talking to passengers and inadvertently keyed mic) followed by multiple mic keys
TWR: Cirrus three charlie delta, do you still have the field in sight?
3CD: Negative that, when we turned around we lost it. Ah, I'm gonna probably go back out to the, ah, north and make a straight in if that's okay.
TWR: Three charlie delta, roger. The field is, suggest a heading of two zero zero.
3CD: Roger, two zero zero.
TWR: Three charlie delta, say intentions?
3CD: I think I'm about tempted, is there an airport close that has better visibility cause I don't wanna get in there and get stuck all day.
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I'd like to think if I found myself in a similar situation the only words to my passengers (always briefed on what "sterile cockpit" means) would be "I need a sterile cockpit until further notice."
 
I watched the AOPA presentation on it today. It's heartbreaking to say the least. I know that many folks don't want to get an instrument rating and I know some fine VFR-only pilots, but if you are not going to learn how to fly in IMC on an IFR flight plan then don't do it! Even with an instrument rating we all know there are situations that exceed our ability and the ability of the equipment to handle so the rating does not guarantee that you won't occasionally scare the bejeezus out of yourself but a trip like this one would have been a total non-event on a properly executed IFR flight plan by a normally proficient instrument rated pilot.

I'm not a big fan of the Cirrus, choosing instead to purchase a Diamond DA40, based in large part on my assessment of my own ability to remain proficient, but in this case the airplane was not in any way at fault. As cruel as this may sound, I think this guy would have eventually pranged even a drone on autoland. It was a classic case of a catastrophic failure of the meat computer.
 
I don't wanna get in there and get stuck all day.
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I almost cried when I heard the audio on the AOPA presentation. The pilot saw his destination airport, but choose to go wandering off in what was at best very marginal VMC, and by all appearances decides not to go an airport reported to have decent VFR!

Did he in fact pull the parachute? I don't have the heart to look up the NTSB narrative, but if so, I suspect that he was well outside of the chute envelope when he finally decided to pull the handle.
 
=/ The whole story makes it a far darker tale than the original transcripts of the accident.

It's hard hearing about VFR into IMC, especially as a VFR-only pilot myself. I almost started getting teary-eyed with every time he decided to "not get stuck." This is the crap that scares the hell out of me as a pilot: it seems to almost always be bad decision making that leads to these fatals, and we don't all think clearly depending on the stress we're under... it reminds me of the seneca from here that went down a few years ago halfway to the east coast
 
MDeitch1976 said:
How much altitude does the Cirrus Chute need?
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Less than 700'. There have been successful deployments much lower than that.

A common complaint about Cirrus pilots is too much reliance on automation but this accident seems the opposite. A club plane with a VFR pilot having done a quick checkout. On my first transition training flight my instructor asked what I would do if I got into IMC. I said turn around. He yelled WRONG. He said I should sync the heading bug, hit HDG and ALT on the AP and then use the heading bug to turn around. He told me I had no business hand flying in IMC until I was properly trained. I see lots of evidence in the flight suggesting the AP was never used. Busting airspace when you have a 10" moving map says a lot about how task saturated the pilot was. Finally, the chute would have saved him had he used it. This was a perfectly good plane with a very good AP. There was good weather back where he had come from.
 
peppy said:
Less than 700'. There have been successful deployments much lower than that.

A common complaint about Cirrus pilots is too much reliance on automation but this accident seems the opposite. A club plane with a VFR pilot having done a quick checkout. On my first transition training flight my instructor asked what I would do if I got into IMC. I said turn around. He yelled WRONG. He said I should sync the heading bug, hit HDG and ALT on the AP and then use the heading bug to turn around. He told me I had no business hand flying in IMC until I was properly trained. I see lots of evidence in the flight suggesting the AP was never used. Busting airspace when you have a 10" moving map says a lot about how task saturated the pilot was. Finally, the chute would have saved him had he used it. This was a perfectly good plane with a very good AP. There was good weather back where he had come from.
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Yeah that was one of my first thoughts, AP on, alt set, and turn the bug 180 degrees. It probably would have saved his life.
 
He kept going to the north/northwest even after they suggested he get vectors to Executive and the weather could not have been better up there (deeper into the front). To me it sounds like he was lost in the computer screens. He keeps asking "what's their code?" as if he wants to input it into the GPS and head that way, but for some reason he couldn't figure it out. The chute would probably have saved them, but ego is hard to overcome.

As tragic as they are, I'm glad we discuss incidents like this on the forums. I know I have learned a lot just from this one accident.
 
numl0ck said:
He kept going to the north/northwest even after they suggested he get vectors to Executive and the weather could not have been better up there (deeper into the front). To me it sounds like he was lost in the computer screens. He keeps asking "what's their code?" as if he wants to input it into the GPS and head that way, but for some reason he couldn't figure it out. The chute would probably have saved them, but ego is hard to overcome.

As tragic as they are, I'm glad we discuss incidents like this on the forums. I know I have learned a lot just from this one accident.
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Sad. The "Nearest" button would have given him all the help he needed. I went to a Garmin seminar where they estimated most pilots use 20% of the capability of their glass panel aircraft.
 
numl0ck said:
He kept going to the north/northwest even after they suggested he get vectors to Executive and the weather could not have been better up there (deeper into the front). To me it sounds like he was lost in the computer screens. He keeps asking "what's their code?" as if he wants to input it into the GPS and head that way, but for some reason he couldn't figure it out. The chute would probably have saved them, but ego is hard to overcome.

As tragic as they are, I'm glad we discuss incidents like this on the forums. I know I have learned a lot just from this one accident.
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My impression is that he was hand flying and being a VFR pilot in IMC having enough trouble staying straight and level. He violates airspace and over flies the airport say that he hadn't realized how fast he plane was. That means he wasn't even able to focus and read the moving map. I sense a guy frozen staring at the PFD.
 
Geico266 said:
Sad. The "Nearest" button would have given him all the help he needed. I went to a Garmin seminar where they estimated most pilots use 20% of the capability of their glass panel aircraft.
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I think that's a high estimate.
 
Oh I watched that video a little while ago. Everyone of PP should watch that. I found myself mad at him for making such bad decisions while atc was doing there best to try and convince him that he needed help. Sad
 
Watched it this afternoon as well, very sad indeed. Definitely rattled beyond thinking clearly. I get the feeling from his almost non coherent communication he was only along for the ride.
 
Anybody else think one of the controllers should've declared an emergency for this guy? Not to shirk the responsibility of the PIC (particularly one carrying kids) but he was in very crappy conditions, sounded over his head and told one of the controllers he was not an IFR pilot.

Not trying to play who shot Johnny, but I thought he could've gotten more help from his "crew" on the radio. Just hearing him you can tell he is over his head.
 
Mach.12 said:
Anybody else think one of the controllers should've declared an emergency for this guy? Not to shirk the responsibility of the PIC (particularly one carrying kids) but he was in very crappy conditions, sounded over his head and told one of the controllers he was not an IFR pilot.

Not trying to play who shot Johnny, but I thought he could've gotten more help from his "crew" on the radio. Just hearing him you can tell he is over his head.
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Reminiscent of that guy hypoxic talking to ATC.
 
Geico266 said:
Sad. The "Nearest" button would have given him all the help he needed. I went to a Garmin seminar where they estimated most pilots use 20% of the capability of their glass panel aircraft.
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I believe that. In a way, it isn't that bad because as with computers, we use only those elements which we need. OTOH, I think aviation is different, and you need a big bag of tricks. The G1000, and especially the Perspective gives you a BIG bag, so it's best to know what's in that bag.

For me, it means regular reviewing of Trescott's book, and asking my CFI-IA to throw me a curveball on every refresher fight.
 
tmyers said:
Do all of the Cirus airplanes have the straight and level button?
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No, that's a recent addition.

For me, it is more of a PR button than anything else, and I am very pro-Cirrus.
 
I just watched the video... wow, I yelled at the screen "YOU'RE PIC!!!" once in response to this guy's radio calls. :rolleyes2:

I'm shocked he didn't have more situational awareness of where he was at or what the airport identifiers were in the vicinity.

He had no outs planned for considering the weather.
 
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