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Doug R

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Doug R
Great day to be alive. Flew for the fun of it today....have not done that for some time...did it just because. No scheduales, no passengers..no ATC...no approaches to mins...took a nice cool drink from the well of aviation. Ended the day hanger flying with a very good freind talking about spins. Learned alot from him today regarding defferent types of spins, spin entries, aggrevated spins and the physics of different types of spins etc. He has invested a considerable amount of time learning about spins and has a good grasp of the subject. Of course we discussed spin traning and avoidence.

Here is my question: What type of spin training (ground or in the air) if any did you receive during your primary training?

sorry for the long post :D
 
Doug R said:
Great day to be alive. Flew for the fun of it today....have not done that for some time...did it just because. No scheduales, no passengers..no ATC...no approaches to mins...took a nice cool drink from the well of aviation. Ended the day hanger flying with a very good freind talking about spins. Learned alot from him today regarding defferent types of spins, spin entries, aggrevated spins and the physics of different types of spins etc. He has invested a considerable amount of time learning about spins and has a good grasp of the subject. Of course we discussed spin traning and avoidence.

Here is my question: What type of spin training (ground or in the air) if any did you receive during your primary training?

sorry for the long post :D
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The only spin training I received was obtained by goating my instructor into showing me a spin. He didn't believe that spins were either necessary or a good practice.

I disagree, but he's the instructor.
 
Doug R said:
What type of spin training (ground or in the air) if any did you receive during your primary training?
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None. Never did a spin until my flight instructor training.
 
None for me until after the PPL. Soon after the checkride I joined a club with several Cessnas including two 172's and during my checkout with a club instructor I asked for and got some basic spin training (3 turns to the left, 3 to the right etc). Later when I started flying some acro in a biplane I got a lot more comfortable with them. I'm still learning things about spins 20+ years later.
 
I did spin a 150 Aerobat a few times back in 1981. I had 105 hours under my belt and zero spin instruction. What an idiot. My first *real* spin training was two years ago in Chandler, AZ. Highly recommended.
 
I had a primary CFI make the mistake of showing me spins...I used to go out on my solo flights, do airwork for 15 or 20 minutes, and spend the rest of the hour and a half doing spins...even got myself lost once due to strong winds aloft!Guess that's why it took me 80 hours to get my PPL ;)Fly safe!David
 
Doug R said:
Here is my question: What type of spin training (ground or in the air) if any did you receive during your primary training?
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None during PP training, but got some training shortly afterwards.
 
Doug R said:
Here is my question: What type of spin training (ground or in the air) if any did you receive during your primary training? :D
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None from my instructors, but one old man I used to fly with taught them to me in a Navion since "Back between the wars we all had to do 3 turns to a heading for a license". I taught them as a requirement for solo, I think everyone should be aquainted with that break so it doesn't fully surprise them.
 
My CFI taught me left/right spin entry and recovery in a C150 during primary training. I can't remember whether it was prior to solo. I do remember the drama of the maneuver was a big surprise the first time.
 
None during my PP training. My CFI felt it wasn't necessary and would only ruin the gyros. I thought it was necessary, though, so I had spin training a few months later, in a Super Decathlon.
 
I laboriously drug one out of my first PPL CFI shortly before firing him. Then got all kinds of spins and such in a Aerobats from other CFIs after PPL on my own. It's very valuable flight training for any grade of pilot when done right.
 
I didn't have any training on spins until my CFI and loved it. I believe it should be taught to all pilots so they know what to do. Every safety seminar reports the statistics of the year, and every year there are a number stall/spin accidents that could have been avoided. We, as an aviation community, need to be proactive.
 
jrdodge said:
Every safety seminar reports the statistics of the year, and every year there are a number stall/spin accidents that could have been avoided.
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You won't get far with that argument because AFaIK the records don't show any significant losses due to pilots (students and beyond) spinning from altitude without recovery in airplanes that allow recovery. Most stall/spin accidents occur at a low enough altitude that spin training would be of no benefit. We've all been told that the reason that spin training was dropped many years ago is because we were losing more pilots doing deliberate spins than inadvertant ones. I suspect that although there's some truth in that, another factor was that for too many students, spins were scary enough that they quit the training (or at least there was a fear of this happening).

Either way, I do think that spin training is worthwhile if for no other reason than pilot's shouldn't live in fear of the unknown corners of the flight envelope. I also believe that spin's are best learned as part of a comprehensive upset training program involving lots more than the traditional "three turns to the right/left" initiated with a gradual pitch up and full rudder at stall.
 
The reasons why mandatory spin training for private pilots was deleted from the regulations in 1949 are spelled out in CAR Amendment 20-3, specifically:

“This amendment eliminates spins from the pilot certification requirement and, in lieu thereof, provides for dual flight instruction in the prevention of and recovery from power-on and power-off stalls entered from all normally anticipated flight attitudes. It is believed that the deletion of the spin requirement and the placing of greater emphasis upon the prevention of and recovery from stalls will result in greater air safety in two ways: (a) it will emphasize recognition of and recovery from stalls which, on the basis of available accident statistics, has proved to be the most dangerous maneuver to pilots; and (b) elimination of the required spin maneuver will act as an incentive for manufacturers to build, and operators of schools to use, spin-resistant or spin-proof aircraft.” (my emphasis)
 
To answer my own question: I did a few spins in a Citabra when I had about 100 hours with a CFI. Neither of us actually had a good understanding of the mechanics of a spin or different types of spins. It was kinda like trying to get my old labrador retreiver to bite. We just abused that poor plane until it finally did something. The mechanics of how we abused it to get the desired results were just a "hey lets try this". Almost 15 years down the road and I look back to that one day and think well we knew just enough not to point the barrel at ourselves when we pulled the trigger. Of course now with what I fly if you find your self in a spin then something very very bad has happened and it will be fatal, but I wonder how maney bi-annuals have been completed without a mention of spins. I personnally know a prfessional pilot that had a fatal accident do to an aggrevated stall spin low to the ground in light plane. Don't care if your Bob Hoover if you allow a combination of conditions to occur then you could be setting yourself up for a bad situation.

Chip: Interesting info ....If I understand the FAA's reasoning then the Eurocoupe should be the number 1 selling plane of all time.
 
gibbons said:
The reasons why mandatory spin training for private pilots was deleted from the regulations in 1949 are spelled out in CAR Amendment 20-3, specifically:

“This amendment eliminates spins from the pilot certification requirement and, in lieu thereof, provides for dual flight instruction in the prevention of and recovery from power-on and power-off stalls entered from all normally anticipated flight attitudes. It is believed that the deletion of the spin requirement and the placing of greater emphasis upon the prevention of and recovery from stalls will result in greater air safety in two ways: (a) it will emphasize recognition of and recovery from stalls which, on the basis of available accident statistics, has proved to be the most dangerous maneuver to pilots; and (b) elimination of the required spin maneuver will act as an incentive for manufacturers to build, and operators of schools to use, spin-resistant or spin-proof aircraft.” (my emphasis)
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Awh, that's nice...

Stall & spin recovery and avoidance can and are taught without the elimination of spin training.

(b)... that'd be a laugh to read if it weren't true.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Awh, that's nice...

Stall & spin recovery and avoidance can and are taught without the elimination of spin training.

(b)... that'd be a laugh to read if it weren't true.
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Dave,
I'm lost. I think I've missed both of your points. Can you elaborate?
 
gibbons said:
Dave,
I'm lost. I think I've missed both of your points. Can you elaborate?
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I'm lost too !

The spin training can always be simulated in ground trainers, for what it's worth, and stall avoidance in the same sims, for what it's worth. Or both practiced in the air, where pilots go.

(b) A spin free aircraft that anyone would want to fly ?
When was that thing written ?
 
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gibbons said:
June 15, 1949.
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That about what I figured so, until somebody comes up with an actually effective replacement for the venerable Ercoupe... let's deal with the recognition of all stalls and spins, and the proper recoveries from them, like real pilots.
 
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Dave Krall CFII said:
The spin training can always be simulated in ground trainers, for what it's worth, and stall avoidance in the same sims, for what it's worth. Or both practiced in the air, where pilots go.
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While a certain amount of stall/spin avoidance training can be accomplished in a true flight simulator, no FTD or lesser flight simulation device has sufficient capability or fidelity to effectively conduct spin training.
 
Doug R said:
Here is my question: What type of spin training (ground or in the air) if any did you receive during your primary training?
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I remember my CFI demonstrating a spin pre-solo and I was taught how to enter and recover myself before the private checkride. This was in a C-150, and quite some time ago (1977). I think the general feeling about this and other things have changed over the years. I don't remember it being something unusual or to be debated about at all. Of course I was 19 or 20 and open to just about anything. :rolleyes:
 
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