Spin training

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DaytonaLynn

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What is the "typical" amount of hours of spin training to get the endorsement.
If you were going for,CFI rating would you recommend doing the spin training near the CFI Checkride?
Thanks
 
I did two flights in a Decathlon. Most people I've heard from only do one flight to get their spin endorsements.

Personally I got it done with well before my checkride to get it out of the way, but I don't think it matters when you do it.
 
I did mine before I soloed.

Going up and going it in a decathlon or Extra is fun, but less usefull.

Try to do your spin training in what you're going to be flying, or the closest thing to it.
 
James331 said:
I did mine before I soloed.

Going up and going it in a decathlon or Extra is fun, but less usefull.

Try to do your spin training in what you're going to be flying, or the closest thing to it.
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No, make your training count for something. Do it in something that requires technique, not just letting go of the controls. Not all popular GA light aircraft have the docile spin recovery characteristics of a Cessna 172 or Cherokee. Some require the positive control inputs of a Decathlon or Extra. If you're going to be a CFI you owe it to yourself and your students to have the training. If you're not planning on instructing you owe it to yourself and your passengers.
 
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DaytonaLynn said:
What is the "typical" amount of hours of spin training to get the endorsement.
If you were going for,CFI rating would you recommend doing the spin training near the CFI Checkride?
Thanks
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I would get the spin training prior to solo - entries and recoveries, both directions. :yes:

And while you're at it, get some basic aerobatic instruction along with it. The training is valuable and not that expensive.
 
For the CFI-Required Spin Training I did it one ride, took about an hour and 20 minutes or so. I did it roughly half-way through the training, after passing FOI and after I was accustomed to flying right seat. Did it in a 152, in August, in Wichita KS, in 100+ degree weather.

Took literally 5 minutes to climb back up to altitude for each of the variations on entry/common student errors.

Wish now that I'd have finished back then ('01) since I now have to get smart on being able to teach all the regulation changes since if I decide to seek the CFI.

Agree with James331, fly something close to what you expect to teach in, you want to recognize the approach and the signals the plane is giving you. My opinion is that the objective is not to be able to safely recover from spins (although that is extremely important), the real objective is to be able to safely recognize the errors that set up the spin and intervene before it rolls over - being comfortable operating there since it is or should be a teachable moment for your student.

Disclaimer, I completed essentially all of the training but did not take the Knowledge, Oral and Practical due to a job change, in 2001 - so my knowledge may be out of date, YMMV.

'Gimp
 
AcroGimp said:
Agree with James331, fly something close to what you expect to teach in, you want to recognize the approach and the signals the plane is giving you. My opinion is that the objective is not to be able to safely recover from spins (although that is extremely important), the real objective is to be able to safely recognize the errors that set up the spin and intervene before it rolls over - being comfortable operating there since it is or should be a teachable moment for your student.
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A well-rounded CFI should be comfortable with spins in many different types. And given the propensity for students to botch stall recoveries very creatively at times, you should be very competent with not only the lead up to spin entries, but also spin recoveries themselves. Of course, most CFIs trainees will only do the minimum training required for the spin endorsement. Lots of CFIs are afraid of spins. The spin endorsement as most do it is almost a joke. It barely scratches the surface and does not result in a pilot who is competent to go out and teach spins...but then it's not really intended to be used that way. It's better than nothing, though. It's just a checkbox on the way to fulfilling the requirements. CFIs should get some real spin training at some point with a dedicated acro/spin instructor.
 
Hours? Spinning?? Those two words shouldn't be used in the same sentance together...
 
I should have mentioned I'm also a CFI.

You'd be surprised how tight you can wind up a 172 if you really want to.
 
James331 said:
I should have mentioned I'm also a CFI.

You'd be surprised how tight you can wind up a 172 if you really want to.
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No question about that, but the operative phrase is... "if you really want to."

If you're like most guys, you're going to be flying and training in something other than a Cessna Skyhawk at some point. What about if you're asked to check someone out in a Mooney or a Bonanza or a Malibu or a Cirrus (Oops, never mind, you're supposed to pop the chute on that one.) or a Comanche or a... and the student gets a little ham handed and you end up in a spin? It can happen and has happened to better CFIs than you or me.
 
RoscoeT said:
A well-rounded CFI should be comfortable with spins in many different types. And given the propensity for students to botch stall recoveries very creatively at times, you should be very competent with not only the lead up to spin entries, but also spin recoveries themselves. Of course, most CFIs trainees will only do the minimum training required for the spin endorsement. Lots of CFIs are afraid of spins. The spin endorsement as most do it is almost a joke. It barely scratches the surface and does not result in a pilot who is competent to go out and teach spins...but then it's not really intended to be used that way. It's better than nothing, though. It's just a checkbox on the way to fulfilling the requirements. CFIs should get some real spin training at some point with a dedicated acro/spin instructor.
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Amen. This is the best post on this thread. And while you're getting that spin training with a qualified aerobatics instructor get some training in other basic aerobatic maneuvers like rolls. Extreme upset and unusual attitude recovery training is readily available and something that every instrument pilot ought to have in his/her logbook or do you trust ATC to never ever vector you in a little too close behind one of those heavies?
 
Just remember that the spin training endorsement required prior to CFI check ride is not only that you can enter and exit spins. But that you can teach incipent spin recognition and prevention / recovery to students.
 
DaytonaLynn said:
What is the "typical" amount of hours of spin training to get the endorsement.
If you were going for,CFI rating would you recommend doing the spin training near the CFI Checkride?
Thanks
Click to expand...

My son did his spin training in a Super Decathalon. The flight was about 1.5 hours, but he also did basic aerobatics.
 
Depends- the typical "1 turn and out" endorsement will take 1-2 hours. A more extensive course requiring entry and recovery from full developed upright, flat, and inverted spins could take 5-10 hours IMO depending on how quick the student adjusted to the inverted flight.
 
warthog1984 said:
A more extensive course requiring entry and recovery from full developed upright, flat, and inverted spins could take 5-10 hours IMO depending on how quick the student adjusted to the inverted flight.
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This type of spin training is typically done in a Pitts or Extra. They can climb back to altitude very quickly, and you can get a lot done in a flight. This type of training won't take near 5-10 hrs. if the focus is simply on training with all possible spin modes. Bill Finagin is probably the most experienced and respected acro spin instructor in the country and during his spin training clinics, the student will experience every possible spin mode in two 20 minute flights. This is somewhat introductory, but for the aerobatic pilot, it will typically leave them with the confidence and ability to proceed on their own, given the consistency in recovery technique, regardless of spin mode. It's possibly worth mentioning that most pilots attending these clinics have had previous experience with plain vanilla upright spins.

For the pilot who wants a greater comfort level than what can be achieved in 40 minutes of flying, another couple hours of intensive training should take care of this. At this level of training, having previously done a couple spins in a 172 really doesn't count for much as far as spin experience and comfort level with all spin modes goes. And it must be remembered that basic spin training in a Citabria or C-150 is mostly spent climbing back to altitude.

Like any other type of training, dual training alone will not leave the student with total mastery. This is done through solo practice. Non-aerobatic pilots will not maintain currency and mastery of all spin modes. For the aerobatic pilot, the beauty of this is that they do not need total mastery when they finish dual training. They simply need mastery of one specific emergency spin recovery technique, which works regardless of spin mode in most aerobatic airplanes. From there, they always have this in their back pocket if, during practice, they screw up or get disoriented with the non-emergency "proactive" spin recovery inputs. But this is getting beyond the scope of this thread.
 
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whifferdill said:
This type of spin training is typically done in a Pitts or Extra. They can climb back to altitude very quickly, and you can get a lot done in a flight. This type of training won't take near 5-10 hrs. if the focus is simply on training with with all possible spin modes. Bill Finagin is probably the most experienced and respected acro spin instructor in the country and during his spin training clinics, the student will experience every possible spin mode in two 20 minute flights. This is somewhat introductory, but for the aerobatic pilot, it will typically leave them with the confidence and ability to proceed on their own, given the consistency in recovery technique, regardless of spin mode. It's possibly worth mentioning that most pilots attending these clinics have had previous experience with plain vanilla upright spins.

For the pilot who wants a greater comfort level than what can be achieved in 40 minutes of flying, another couple hours of intensive training should take care of this. At this level of training, having previously done a couple spins in a 172 really doesn't count for much as far as spin experience and comfort level with all spin modes goes. And it must be remembered that basic spin training in a Citabria or C-150 is mostly spent climbing back to altitude.

Like any other type of training, dual training alone will not leave the student with total mastery. This is done through solo practice. Non-aerobatic pilots will not maintain currency and mastery of all spin modes. For the aerobatic pilot, the beauty of this is that they do not need total mastery when they finish dual training. They simply need mastery of one specific emergency spin recovery technique, which works regardless of spin mode in most aerobatic airplanes. From there, they always have this in their back pocket if, during practice, they screw up or get disoriented with the non-emergency "proactive" spin recovery inputs. But this is getting beyond the scope of this thread.
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^^ This.

The CFI spin training requirement is a holdover from when every pilot had to have spin training. In the time I spent on spin training we did 8 or 10 different entries, covered incipient and developed with 'normal' and accelerated entries. The CFI I flew with was an acro guy so he was happy to do as many as I could stand on a hot humid Kansas summer day. Even back then I actually enjoyed spins.

The number of typical training aircraft approved for spins is not really that big but does cover the most commonly used aircraft. When I was a student I had a CFI who was not afraid of spins and who demonstrated them for me during my training - as a now aerobatic pilot spins are just another figure, but even as a Private Pilot, then Commercial Pilot I would occasionally do a spin (in approved aircraft) to retain a level of comfort with it since the entry can be disorienting. Now I do them for fun and practice.

The nice thing about most training aircraft approved for spins is they will almost all self recover given adequate altitude, with some literally having to be held in a spin that will pop right out just with the removal of pro-spin inputs. That said, if there is a recommended procedure in the POH that is what should be used.

The key again with the current regulations is to be able to instruct the student to recognize the onset and recover BEFORE a spin occurs - but for the CFI to be able to recover if a spin does occur.

I personally believe full spin training should still be a part of the Private syllabus and am fully supportive of anyone getting good spin training to gain an appreciation for just how mundane and controllable they are in most non-competition/airshow cases.

Keep the ball centered and a spin is essentially not possible, a great lesson for most pilots to avoid having lazy feet.

'Gimp
 
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Don't forget that the PTS just addresses the minimum standards that must be met - nothing more, nothing less. I know finances are an issue with most of us, but the cost delta to do this right is not all that much - perhaps four or five hundred bucks. Over the years I've taken two extreme upset recovery/basic aerobatics courses, the most recent being about 18 months ago at CP aviation in Santa Paula. Our company flight department sent all of our flight crews through and it was well worth it. It's not about turning you into the next Bob Hoover, it's about inoculating you against stuff that is known for killing pilots and their passengers. One of our pilots had never flown a taildragger and had never done anything other than "PTS level" spin training back when he got his CFI. During the first lesson he was recovering from incipient spins with less than 300 feet of altitude loss. (So much for the idea that a spin in the pattern will kill you.)

Having a little aerobatic training in the basics will go along way if you're ever tucked in just a little too close behind that 757 going into KSNA. It killed everyone on board a Westwind II 21 years ago. When the sim instructor set me up for a comparable scenario at a Lear recurrent a couple of years later, knowing to "push" rather than "pull" kept me from crashing the sim. (It was actually pretty cool doing a roll on an ILS :) The wake turbulence encounter rolled me about 90 degrees and it was a simple matter to just keep the roll going. As I remember, I lost about two dots on the glideslope. We continued on the approach and landed. No harm no foul.)

It's good idea to be frugal with many things during your training, but it's probably a better idea to pay a little bit more on those occasions where the extra training provides so much more in additional benefits. This is one of those opportunities.
 
warthog1984 said:
Depends- the typical "1 turn and out" endorsement will take 1-2 hours. A more extensive course requiring entry and recovery from full developed upright, flat, and inverted spins could take 5-10 hours IMO depending on how quick the student adjusted to the inverted flight.
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OK,warthog; not packing on you; but your quote is the most "typical" one that exdes the error in thinking about "spin training".
The CFI endorsement would most definitely require more than one demonstration flight.
Did you become competent in landings on one flight ? Of corset you didn't. It will take more than one, perhaps three or Morton be/feel comfortable, and in control, while the student is flailing and screaming about in the parking lot at the old part of the road, or a section of the new road?6/6
 
nosehair said:
OK,warthog; not packing on you; but your quote is the most "typical" one that exdes the error in thinking about "spin training".
The CFI endorsement would most definitely require more than one demonstration flight.
Did you become competent in landings on one flight ? Of corset you didn't. It will take more than one, perhaps three or Morton be/feel comfortable, and in control, while the student is flailing and screaming about in the parking lot at the old part of the road, or a section of the new road?6/6
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As others have said, 1-2 flights/hours is common for the "I did one turn and the Cessna auto-recovered" endorsement. However, an actual in-depth CFI spin endorsement will (as I posted) take longer. Whifferdill and AcroGimp seem to say that .7 on the hobbs is sufficient to be proficient in spins. Personally, I think the 5-10 hours is more realistic to work up to mastering what one CFI called "recovering from any spin a student can try to kill you with".
 
warthog1984 said:
Whifferdill and AcroGimp seem to say that .7 on the hobbs is sufficient to be proficient in spins.
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Neither of us said that. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I state that dual alone does not produce mastery. "Proficiency" is subjective. A typical spin endorsement does not make someone proficient in all spin types. That is not its purpose. It does not take long to learn to safely recover from spins. True proficiency can only be obtained on your own unless you want to invest in an inordinate amount of dual...and continued dual to maintain these skills. You seem to be thinking in terms of someone going straight from the dual instruction process to the teaching of others.

It's similar to aerobatics. It actually takes very little to learn to do the basic maneuvers without killing yourself. It takes much more practice on your own to develop true proficiency. You could learn to do a sloppy loop, roll, and spin without killing yourself in 1.5 hrs. This does not mean after 1.5 hours of aerobatic dual, that one should then start teaching aerobatics. Any CFI whose total spin experience is limited to the small amount of dual instruction they received is quite inexperienced. But since spin training is not in the PTS, there are plenty of CFIs flying around who are not proficient in the recovery of all spin types. But if you understand anything about spins, you'd understand that one does not need to sit there and watch a spin develop. Spins do not happen instantaneously. It's a developing process that takes a few seconds in most airplanes. Stopping yaw and preventing a spin from developing after a botched stall does not necessarily require advanced aerobatic spin training. If it did, then we'd see a rash of spin accidents during the primary training process. We don't see that.

But I do believe additional spin training beyond the simple endorsement is something all CFI candidates would benefit from. I also think they should practice spins on their own so that they develop skills beyond what can be achieved through limited one-time dual instruction. In fact, I think ALL pilots should get spin training, not that I think it would be practical to mandate it for the PPL.

I'm not sure what your own spin experience is, but if you still think it will take 5-10 hours to develop initial proficiency, go see Bill Finagin, in Annapolis, MD. ;) He will run you through the ringer rather quickly. I might agree with you if you mean 5-10 hours of total spin experience. This does not however mean that this 5-10 hours needs to be dual. If a CFI candidate can't rent a C-150 and gain a few hours of spin experience on their own, then you might rethink training with this person.
 
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warthog1984 said:
As others have said, 1-2 flights/hours is common for the "I did one turn and the Cessna auto-recovered" endorsement. However, an actual in-depth CFI spin endorsement will (as I posted) take longer. Whifferdill and AcroGimp seem to say that .7 on the hobbs is sufficient to be proficient in spins. Personally, I think the 5-10 hours is more realistic to work up to mastering what one CFI called "recovering from any spin a student can try to kill you with".
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IIRC, both of the extreme unusual attitude recovery courses I took consisted of about 8 flights totaling about 4 hours of flying. It seemed more than enough to accomplish the goals of the course. Like I said, the goal isn't to make you the next Bob Hoover. If you want to do that, then it's definitively going to take longer. Here's a link to find aerobatic schools and qualified instructors near you. http://www.iacusn.org/schools/
 
whifferdill said:
Neither of us said that. If you re-read my post, you'll see that I state that dual alone does not produce mastery. "Proficiency" is subjective. A typical spin endorsement does not make someone proficient in all spin types.

...

I'm not sure what your own spin experience is, but if you still think it will take 5-10 hours to develop initial proficiency, go see Bill Finagin, in Annapolis, MD. ;) He will run you through the ringer rather quickly. I might agree with you if you mean 5-10 hours of total spin experience. This does not however mean that this 5-10 hours needs to be dual. If a CFI candidate can't rent a C-150 and gain a few hours of spin experience on their own, then you might rethink training with this person.
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5-10 hours to "bomb proof" a CFI and get them to recover from any potential screw-up on automatic. This means upright spins, flat spins, accelerated spins, inverted spins, inverted flat spins, and a split-S or two.

I don't see how you can go from no spin experience to proficiency in much less than 5 hours. And quite frankly, anyone who goes out practicing fully developed spins on their own before they are proficient needs their head examined.
 
warthog1984 said:
5-10 hours to "bomb proof" a CFI and get them to recover from any potential screw-up on automatic. This means upright spins, flat spins, accelerated spins, inverted spins, inverted flat spins, and a split-S or two.

I don't see how you can go from no spin experience to proficiency in much less than 5 hours. And quite frankly, anyone who goes out practicing fully developed spins on their own before they are proficient needs their head examined.
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I'm sure that there were quite a few folks in 1927 that thought that Charles Lindbergh should have his head examined. LOTS of people knew about him attempting to get 450 gallons of fuel off of a 4,000 feet muddy runway over the trees to attempt to cross the Atlantic by Ded Reckoning in a single engine, single pilot aircraft with no radio.

Your definition comes into play much earlier in Lindberghs life, however. Lucky Lindy had taken a few hours of flight instruction in Nebraska after paying a handsome sum for what he thought was going to be pilot training, but turned out to be doing lots of grunt work for a very few hours of training in return.

He then came up with $500 or so and went to Georgia(I think it was) where he bought a war surplus Jenny. After purchasing the plane he did some fast taxiing on the runway, but didn't feel comfortable taking it up. A veteran pilot that was there waiting for a plane to be finished that he was scheduled to ferry, gave Slim a few hours of training, after which he solo'd, flew around the area for a few hours flight time and then headed West to barnstorm. Somewhere in those first few hours he did several spins. I expect that someone had "DESCRIBED" spins to him, but he did it all on his own.

The Pulitzer Prize winning "The Spirit of St. Louis" book, Slim wrote in the mid fifties has all the fascinating details that I have since forgotten.

Although Slim was a very interesting character, he did PLENTY of things that would warrant head examination suggestions by many. Everything from teaching himself spins, still holding the Caterpillar Club record that has yet to be broken as well as being a polygamist, fathering numerous children in Germany and Switzerland because he felt it his duty to propagate his superior Nordic genes.:dunno:
 
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warthog1984 said:
I don't see how you can go from no spin experience to proficiency in much less than 5 hours. And quite frankly, anyone who goes out practicing fully developed spins on their own before they are proficient needs their head examined.
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What you seem to be missing is the fact that (generally speaking) the only folks who attain proficiency (and maintain it) with all the spin modes are aerobatic pilots flying Pitts and Extra types. What you also may not understand is that for the newbie aerobatic pilot obtaining this type of training, there is a single emergency recovery technique that recovers any spin type in these airplanes without even having to know what type of spin you're in - that is to pull power off, and visually neutralize all controls, look at the ASI, and wait for the airplane to start flying again. You don't even need your eyeballs outside the airplane. I know some may find this hard to believe. For those folks, again - go fly with the master - Bill Finagin.

That is emergency recovery, and yes, a pilot truly can go out and practice all spin modes by themselves once they have mastered this single technique....even if they have not fully mastered or developed 100% comfort with the proactive stick and rudder inputs to most quickly recover from each individual spin type. Again, I don't generally know of pilots doing inverted flat spins in many airplanes other than Pitts and Extra types. This technique works in those airplanes.

Believe me, being highly active in IAC I am tuned into how much training pilots receive with this stuff, and what it takes. I have NEVER heard of anyone spending 5-10 hours on aerobatic spin training alone. 5-10 hours will take a competent J-3 Cub pilot with little to no aerobatic experience and fully transition them into a Pitts, which includes a whole lot of takeoffs and landings, basic aerobatics, and yes - some aerobatic spin training. But no more than about 25% of the time would be spent doing spins of all types. The pilot will be safe to proceed on their own after this - safe being the key word. True proficiency and a high level of comfort will (and can only) happen through practice on your own - again unless you have unlimited $$ to invest in many hours of ongoing dual. I don't know anyone who does that.

The statements you are making lead me to believe that you have not attained true proficiency with all of these advanced spin types, which means your perspective on training does not include a full understanding of the realities of all this.
 
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What you seem to be missing is the fact that (generally speaking) the only folks who attain proficiency (and maintain it) with all the spin modes are aerobatic pilots flying Pitts and Extra types.
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I couldn't resist, Wifferdill (even though you did say "generally"). Have you ever heard of Catherine Cavagnaro in Sewanee, TN (Ace Aerobatic School)? :)
 
somorris said:
I couldn't resist, Wifferdill (even though you did say "generally"). Have you ever heard of Catherine Cavagnaro in Sewanee, TN (Ace Aerobatic School)? :)
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Sure have. Ask her if she does inverted flat spins in the Aerobat. :) I'm not making any judgments on her level of experience, just saying that Cessna Aerobats are NOT used to perform all possible spin modes. I understand she is an excellent instructor.
 
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The CFIs on my field make my life easy by letting me sneak in and out when I need to. I try to thank them with a standing offer to take the front seat whenever they like (MX2).

It amazes me that only about a third of them can count their way through a three turn spin. Counting helps me asses their situational awareness.

CFIs do a job where their life it threatened one student at a time. In their shoes, I'd like to have as much understanding of planes on the verge of flying as I can. I'd get really comfortable with spinning and spin recovery and then do exactly what whiffer suggests, go out and have a little fun by myself. I can also verify his comments in that I was taught upright spin recovery in an Extra and went on to have the other modes explained (accelerated, snaps, inverted and cross over) to me on the ground by those that know then simply went out and practiced them on my own. The key is being safe to learn.

If I were you, I'd get proficient (safe) in recovery then go out and find how many different ways you can get different planes to enter a spin. This will provide you with a wealth of low energy experience and a chance to see if you can nail all the possible ways. if you miss one, thank the student for showing you a new trick :)
 
whifferdill said:
This type of spin training is typically done in a Pitts or Extra. They can climb back to altitude very quickly, and you can get a lot done in a flight. This type of training won't take near 5-10 hrs. if the focus is simply on training with all possible spin modes. Bill Finagin is probably the most experienced and respected acro spin instructor in the country and during his spin training clinics, the student will experience every possible spin mode in two 20 minute flights. This is somewhat introductory, but for the aerobatic pilot, it will typically leave them with the confidence and ability to proceed on their own, given the consistency in recovery technique, regardless of spin mode. It's possibly worth mentioning that most pilots attending these clinics have had previous experience with plain vanilla upright spins.

For the pilot who wants a greater comfort level than what can be achieved in 40 minutes of flying, another couple hours of intensive training should take care of this. At this level of training, having previously done a couple spins in a 172 really doesn't count for much as far as spin experience and comfort level with all spin modes goes. And it must be remembered that basic spin training in a Citabria or C-150 is mostly spent climbing back to altitude.

Like any other type of training, dual training alone will not leave the student with total mastery. This is done through solo practice. Non-aerobatic pilots will not maintain currency and mastery of all spin modes. For the aerobatic pilot, the beauty of this is that they do not need total mastery when they finish dual training. They simply need mastery of one specific emergency spin recovery technique, which works regardless of spin mode in most aerobatic airplanes. From there, they always have this in their back pocket if, during practice, they screw up or get disoriented with the non-emergency "proactive" spin recovery inputs. But this is getting beyond the scope of this thread.
Click to expand...

Very good advice.
I also second Bill Finnegan.
Took some dual with him in a Pitts years ago. Very useful instruction and even more fun!
You won't regret it!
 
I've flown with Bill Finagin a few times now and haven't met a more capable, knowledgable and patient acro instructor... I have a few hours of spinning logged (mostly for fun, as it only takes few tries to learn his recovery technique, ymmv)... Crossover spins are my new favorites ;) He does acro too if you want to have some more fun in addition to spin training...
 
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