Spin recovery

Colin 182

Colin 182

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Colin 182
Hi, What is the correct way to recover from a spin.

1. Power off, neutralise aileron, full opposite rudder, wait for spin to stop, then push forward on the yoke, climb and add power.
2. Power off, neutralise aileron, full opposite rudder, then immediately push forward on yoke, climb and then add power.
My instructor and examiner where in disagreement about this……. So what is the correct answer, or does the recover differ depending on aircraft type???

thanks colin182
 
Between 1 and 2 and different for each aircraft, even if a little similar
 
It differs for different aircraft, but I think your #2 is the most correct answer. Sometimes, the rudder can get blanked out by the elevator if you input elevator too quickly, so a little hesitation is good.
 
Some aircraft can even be simplified down to one step, "let go".

Number 2 is probably most correct, but you don't want to be *too* brisk on that forward motion on the elevator.
 
I think it would vary some with the plane. Rather than pure mechanics, I try to use power off, rudder opposite the yaw, and pull (inverted) or push (upright) the nose toward the ground, then pull out.

Even high end aerobatic planes require pro spin inputs to spin, and simply releasing the rudder pressure after getting the power off will stop the spin, upright or inverted.

There are a lot of ways of getting the same result.

You need to learn this from an experienced instructor and start high enough to recover.
 
I beleive it will vary by airplane, but in general for the typical GA airplane that's NOT made for aerodynamics:

Power off
Be FONZIE - Put your left thumb up, stick it forward and say HEYYYYYY!. What this does is neutralize the ailerons, and remove any nose-up pitch input that you may have put in.
Full rudder opposite the spin until the rotation stops.

Then gently and smoothly and quickly, raise the nose to the horizon and let your speed stabilize. The "quickly" part of this varies depending on the airplane. In some slick-winged airplanes the speed can build rapidly.
 
hi thanks for all your comments.....

I have never done any spin training, I really feel its something I must do.

I passsed my CPL however the examiner was a bit ****ed that I went for option 1. Said the ONLY correct way of recovery was option 2. I can fully understand the importance of learning the correct way, but if there is more than one correct way depending on type what should be taught? Apart from not getting into a spin in the first place........

Colin182.
 
The NASA recovery method summarized by Rich Stowell into the acronym PARE:


  • P-- Power to Idle
  • A-- Ailerons neutral
  • R --Rudder counter the turn (look straight down the nose to determine which way you are spinning)
  • E-- Elevator forward (slightly) to recover from stall, then gently recover from the dive
More here: http://www.richstowell.com/documents/12StallSpinMyths.pdf
 
One concept about spins that I found helpful.

Both wings have stopped flying along most of their surfaces. One wing is flying a little bit more (hence the rotation).

The rudder (which is a wing) is the only surface still flying, so you use it to counteract rotation by introducing some yaw and making the wing that was flying "less" fly a little bit more.

You can see how this works in a falling-leaf manuever, where you'll have a wing drop (it stopped flying before the other) and you can pick it up with the rudder. Whenever you put in uncoordinated yaw, you make one wing move through the air faster than the other, and that wing thus generates more lift.
 
Colin 182 said:
hi thanks for all your comments.....

I have never done any spin training, I really feel its something I must do.

I passsed my CPL however the examiner was a bit ****ed that I went for option 1. Said the ONLY correct way of recovery was option 2. I can fully understand the importance of learning the correct way, but if there is more than one correct way depending on type what should be taught? Apart from not getting into a spin in the first place........

Colin182.
Click to expand...

I did spin training in a Pitts and was told to PARE.

Power OFF
Aileron Neutral
Rudder opposite spin
Elevator

Spins stop so fast with the rudder that your question is almost academic. He did warn that if I nosed down before the spin stopped that I could tighten it which was another maneuver for later on if I continue to take acro flights. Also if you hold the rudder in a second too long you can develop the spin in the opposite direction ... did a quarter turn opposite spin on my first recovery as I wasn't anticipating that fast a recovery .... its QUICK in a Pitts.
 
Posted this before:

Spins and what happens when you do things like stick forward first, power, etc...

 
danhagan said:
I did spin training in a Pitts and was told to PARE.

Power OFF
Aileron Neutral
Rudder opposite spin
Elevator

Spins stop so fast with the rudder that your question is almost academic. He did warn that if I nosed down before the spin stopped that I could tighten it which was another maneuver for later on if I continue to take acro flights. Also if you hold the rudder in a second too long you can develop the spin in the opposite direction ... did a quarter turn opposite spin on my first recovery as I wasn't anticipating that fast a recovery .... its QUICK in a Pitts.
Click to expand...


Power OFF?


:confused:
Are you sure it's not just "Idle"?
 
For a 172: Put your hands in the air and scream "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!" and it should recover by itself.

For other airplanes:

Power- Off
Ailerons- Neutral
Rudder-full opposite
Elevator-Foward
 
dmccormack said:
I teach student pilots. It's important that I mean what I say and say what I mean to avoid ambiguity.
Click to expand...

And what flying technique have you ever heard of that involves turning off the mags?
 
TMetzinger said:
Power off
Be FONZIE - Put your left thumb up, stick it forward and say HEYYYYYY!. What this does is neutralize the ailerons, and remove any nose-up pitch input that you may have put in.
Full rudder opposite the spin until the rotation stops.
Click to expand...

I wish I had access to a Skyhawk to answer my own question, but I don't so...

Think it'll work with full up trim?
 
Pay attention to the POH. Many models of the 150, for example, may not respond to the standard "#2" technique, especially if the spin has progressed beyond a couple of turns. Cessna sent out a POH supplement about it, and they want power to idle, opposite rudder followed immediately by full, abrupt down elevator. None of this "relaxing the back pressure." Otherwise, the spin may not stop, as one of our instructors once found and finally used the above technique to stop it at 800' AGL.

Other airplanes might tumble further out of control or get into a beyond-Vne dive if such a technique is used. The POH is the authority.

Dan
 
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The Rich Stowell material is great. I didn't know slips reduced the potential for stall/spin. Also the video showing different types of spins - money experiencing that would be well-spent.

I see value in primary students learning spin entry/recovery because there's nothing quite like the auto-response of the airplane rolling over and presenting a windshield full of spinning dirt. I still remember the shock of it, and it seems people would have a broad range of reactions to it.

I did primary training years ago in C150s and I remember very easy recovery in those - but I doubt we did more than a couple of turns. Many years later, I did spins in an 8KCAB and was a little taken aback when the aircraft didn't stop spinning immediately on full opposite rudder. As I recall it took a turn or so to stop rotation. That was probably after three turns.

Not a CFI (hopefully will be), but I've felt uncomfortable at the thought of sending a primary student off to the practice area alone to work on stalls without having experienced spin entry and recovery. Anyone have thoughts about that?
 
lsimonds said:
Not a CFI (hopefully will be), but I've felt uncomfortable at the thought of sending a primary student off to the practice area alone to work on stalls without having experienced spin entry and recovery. Anyone have thoughts about that?
Click to expand...

I'm a newbie CFI, and share the feeling. On the other hand, I know of lots of CFIs (including mine) who've done and do this every day.

Spinning is hard on airplanes not really built for it. YES, you can put some Diamonds and Cessnas into spins when they're within the utility category, but it's still tough on the gyros and the airframe if the recovery is less than optimal.

Teaching the effect of rudder on roll before stalling (in slow flight, for instance) can help train the reflex we want our students to have - if a wing drops during a stall, kick opposite rudder and stop the stall. In a skyhawk with the stall whistle, it can be informative to do slow flight and have the student play with the elevator while listening to the character of the whistle change. It gets them used to the concept that a stall is a gradual rather than an abrupt change.
 
lsimonds said:
The Rich Stowell material is great. I didn't know slips reduced the potential for stall/spin. Also the video showing different types of spins - money experiencing that would be well-spent.

I see value in primary students learning spin entry/recovery because there's nothing quite like the auto-response of the airplane rolling over and presenting a windshield full of spinning dirt. I still remember the shock of it, and it seems people would have a broad range of reactions to it.

I did primary training years ago in C150s and I remember very easy recovery in those - but I doubt we did more than a couple of turns. Many years later, I did spins in an 8KCAB and was a little taken aback when the aircraft didn't stop spinning immediately on full opposite rudder. As I recall it took a turn or so to stop rotation. That was probably after three turns.

Not a CFI (hopefully will be), but I've felt uncomfortable at the thought of sending a primary student off to the practice area alone to work on stalls without having experienced spin entry and recovery. Anyone have thoughts about that?
Click to expand...

I learned spin recover during the student phase (just after the earth cooled) as I intentionally asked the instructor to show them to me. Then during a routine practice session in the practice area after a few weeks off I decided to perform a power on stall and brilliantly forgot how to actually perform it correctly in that I simply pulled up from level flight at full power and held the nose high until stall. Well this led to a wonderful spin (hard to remember that long ago but probably for lack of rudder causing the yaw, not excess rudder) which I fortuantely had no probelm recognizing and remedying. I can remember landing and thanking my instructor for teaching me spins, of course his eyes got quite wide when I explained to him the scenario. I suspect we went back for remedial power on stall lessons on the next flight.:nono:

Skip forward 30+ years... as a CFI I will offer spin training on occasion to select individuals and as I dont instruct part time for an FBO anymore and typically use my own aircraft or occasionally the students, especially those with an acro mount. I recently demonstrated the base to final turn spin scenario to a student/friend of mine because I really wanted him to understand the scenario and see what it looks like. We also did plain old vanilla upright spins so he could get a feel for the recovery procedure. It's not for every student so you need to keep that in mind....you could quite easily scare them right out of flight training all together, but if they show genuine unprovoked interest I'll try to accomodate.
 
denverpilot said:
Good to know. Thanks.
Click to expand...
I the three 172's I've spun, I had more trouble keeping them in a spin than getting out. Even after three or more rotations just centering the controls seemed to stop the spin within one additional rotation (power off) and the recommended procedure (full opposite rudder followed by forward movement of the elevator) stopped in less than half a turn.
 
Yeah, they're pretty docile. Gently tossing them "over the top" with a slightly accelerated climbing stall seemed to help get the spins going better.

Left always worked better than right, too. Torque and all the other left-turning tendencies I was told.

To the right, it'd come out real easy.

I was just curious about mixing full up trim and just releasing the controls as Tim mentioned. Never tried that back then. It'd probably come out and then start doing the ol' "falling leaf" if you left it alone, I guess.

Could, in theory, have a secondary stall if you shoved the throttle back in as the nose came up to the horizon once the wing was flying again, with full nose up trim.

Could be fun. Enter a spin, recover, shove throttle up, stall, enter spin number two... repeat as altitude permits. ;)

Goosing the throttle once established with all that up trim could flatten it a bit, too. We never played with purposely trying to flatten or speed up the rotation. Just a few turns and recover.

It's fun to see the world rotating out the front window.

Talked about the tendency of some aircraft to come out in a spiral dive too, but never saw the Skyhawk do that.

It'd just go from rotation and a lot of altitude being list to flying again in a dive. Since it was usually trimmed for slow cruise prior to the entry, itd pitch up almost on its own, seeking that slower trim speed.

Never flew one that was out of rig or had any bad habits. Had a friend who reported that one of the local rental beaters would come out of left-turn spins in a spiral, but that thing never flew straight anyway. Most beat up airplane on the line at KEIK back then.
 
I don't think I said to release the controls - I said to be like Fonzie, with your hand ON the yoke, put it forward with your thumb up. It's the same thing as PARE, except it includes a Happy Days reference for those of us who remember it.
 
Ahh. I get it now. I didn't before. You're saying "no ailerons".

You never get any students who say, "Which way is up?" when subjected to their first spin? Heh heh. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Ahh. I get it now. I didn't before. You're saying "no ailerons".

You never get any students who say, "Which way is up?" when subjected to their first spin? Heh heh. ;)
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Well, "up" relative to the cockpit, not the universe. And I'm saying no ailerons and no elevator-up input. The elevator is neutral-to-slightly-nose-down.
 
TMetzinger said:
Well, "up" relative to the cockpit, not the universe. And I'm saying no ailerons and no elevator-up input. The elevator is neutral-to-slightly-nose-down.
Click to expand...

Heh. I understood. I was just pulling your chain. Which way is up in an inverted spin? ;)
 
Arbiter419 said:
don't want to be *too* brisk on that forward motion on the elevator.
Click to expand...

I know you're supposed to secure the cockpit but you'll be amazed at what can sneak out and nail you in the back of the head if you do this.
 
TMetzinger said:
Well, "up" relative to the cockpit, not the universe. And I'm saying no ailerons and no elevator-up input. The elevator is neutral-to-slightly-nose-down.
Click to expand...

Of course!!! I was wondering what the hell the Fonzie reference was for. I know Fonzie. I know, "Ay..." Now it all makes sense. (OK, I still don't really understand why the thumbs up. But, the next time I find myself in an unexpected spin, I'm sure I'll spend a few seconds thinking of you. :-/ )
 
I just need to go do spins, but I don't really fear them in my plane as I once (really) goofed a power on stall recovery once during practice and the only result was a wicked roll rate as the wing dropped.
 
Skylane81E said:
I just need to go do spins, but I don't really fear them in my plane as I once (really) goofed a power on stall recovery once during practice and the only result was a wicked roll rate as the wing dropped.
Click to expand...

I believe all the cool kids call that an "incipient spin". It's also the lame-assed excuse for spin training the current curriculum holds for even CFIs these days. :)

(Oh, now I've done it...)
 
TMetzinger said:
Both wings have stopped flying along most of their surfaces. One wing is flying a little bit more (hence the rotation).
Click to expand...

Stall is not "stopping flying". It's just that the AOA has been exceeded so that more AOA is not generating less lift. The fact that one wing is further into this regime is why the rotation is ocurring.
 
flyingron said:
Stall is not "stopping flying". It's just that the AOA has been exceeded so that more AOA is not generating less lift. The fact that one wing is further into this regime is why the rotation is ocurring.
Click to expand...

Read what I said again, and what you said. I said part of the wing surface has stopped flying (meaning generating lift). There are still parts of the wings flying, and one is doing more of it then the other.

Also, I believe you meant to say "....more AOA is not generating more lift"
 
A bazillion years ago I attended a seminar, conducted by the FAA and Frank Christiansen, (of Christen Eagle fame) at his then private field, near Hollister, CA. All the pilots attending were there to get a low altitude aerobatic waiver from the FAA.
Frank started the presentation by telling us of an airshow pilot, in an S-1 Pitts, who, at the beginning of a performance for a troop of boyscouts, (at Franks' field) approached at high altitude and started the routine with a 10 turn inverted flat spin. It was a very short airshow, as the performer spun to his death.
One of the scouts captured the event on 8mm film - which was studied a great deal to learn what happened. Explained to us was the Pitts pilot was evidently looking at the ground through the top of his canopy, (he was inverted) and somehow missinterpreted the direction of rotation - the film clearly showed him holding the controls in the direction of the spin. The jist of the presentation was that, during ANY spin it's essential that the pilot look straight ahead over the nose - in a biplane, straight throught the cabane struts, before recovering. The concept may not seem so important if all you ever do is upright spins from level flight, but if a spin is inadvertant, like out of some kinky, botched maneuver, the type and DIRECTION may take a couple of seconds to recognize. I got the feeling Mr. Christiansen could recover from any spin...with his eyes closed! He did mention that if there's any doubt of your direction, step on the pedal that isn't on the floor. Well, sure, when you put it that way...
Forgive my pontificating, but the reason for POWER OFF is to eliminate the possibility of the spin going flat...only way to get in a flat spin is with power on. To (purposely) enter a flat spin, do a normal, upright spin to the left, (it won't work to the right, because of the prop rotation) keep the stick back and rudder to the floor, then add full right aileron, and then add full power. It's a very odd sensation and seems slower than a normal spin.
To recover, look straight ahead, put the ailerons in to the spin, bring the throttle to idle - then perform the usual spin recovery, opposite rudder and stick forward and voila, you're flying again.
 
j1b3h0 said:
..To (purposely) enter a flat spin, do a normal, upright spin to the left, (it won't work to the right, because of the prop rotation)....
Click to expand...
It will flat spin to the right.

j1b3h0 said:
...only way to get in a flat spin is with power on....To recover, look straight ahead, put the ailerons in to the spin, bring the throttle to idle - then perform the usual spin recovery, opposite rudder and stick forward and voila, you're flying again.
Click to expand...
Depends on what type of aeroplane you are in - I never make too many general comments about spinning without clarifying what type(s) of airplanes I am talking about.
 
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