Spin city (are you sick of this yet?)

Toby

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Toby Speed
Today's lesson was so super. I feel the way I did when I first soloed! I think it's because I've done so many spins now that I've lost the anxiety I had about them, and they're really fun to do. We did two to the left, which went fine, and then many to the right. Well, an hour's worth, at least.

Right rudder spins are harder to do. Two or three times I could not get that baby to break to the right. She stalled okay, but I had the right rudder down to the floor and we just started diving straight down without a spin, so I had to recover and climb up to 5,000 again. This morning I read an article in Private Pilot that suggested adding a burst of power at the stall break to make the plane enter a good spin. When I mentioned that to my instructor, he said that it would work better to the left than to the right, because when you fly with power the airplane yaws to the left. So it would probably not help for a right rudder spin. It's also another step in the process that you have to remember to undo before the spin develops.

I was able to count my turns better today, btw. Not out loud, but at least I was aware of where the beach was.

What must it be like doing this stuff over land with roads and section lines, I wonder??? Not having the ocean below me would be disorienting. And I like to make my clearing turns over the shipwreck. :)

After all that, my instructor demonstrated a competition spin for me. He said it would be scarier, but it wasn't. After the first turn or so, he pushed the nose straight down and tightened up the turn so we were in a perfect vertical line. Then we recovered -- a little more G force than I usually get with my "survival" spin recoveries. I want to learn how to do that!

Okay, now I have three secrets to doing well and feeling well at my lessons:
1. A good night's sleep.
2. A toasted bagel, lightly buttered, immediately before flying.
3. Practice with the sponge mop all week (makes a good stick when practicing spins at the kitchen table).
 
The trick to getting the Cessna 140 to break right is to get into the shaking nose up 40 indicated stall horn blaring condition and then CUT about 100 rpm of power as the yoke is brought back the extra 1/4". OVER SHE GOES. P force and torque for sure are factors in getting that angular momentum!
 
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Toby said:
Right rudder spins are harder to do. Two or three times I could not get that baby to break to the right.

Yea, we had that problem with spins to the right with my lesson in CA.

Toby said:
What must it be like doing this stuff over land with roads and section lines, I wonder??? Not having the ocean below me would be disorienting.

I think it's easier to do this stuff over section lines, and over my grass runways. It's nice to be able to use that red hangar as a reference point, too. :)

I found out why some of my spins yesterday were actually spirals (thanks T.B. for the input :)) and hope to go practice them again today if the wind lets up.

You're doing great Toby!
 
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bbchien said:
The trick to getting the Cessna 140 to break right is to get into the shaking nose up 40 indicated stall horn blaring condition and then CUT about 100 rpm of power as the yoke is brought back the extra 1/4". OVER SHE GOES. P force and torque for sure are factors in getting that angular momentum!

The way I've been doing it is by taking all the power out well before the stall. We're still slowing down after it's out, and I just wait...and wait. It can be very suspenseful.

Will the C140 method work in the Decathlon? It's so darn hard to slow this plane down.

Now that I think of it, I've never heard the stall horn. I wonder if we have one?
 
Diana said:
I found out why some of my spins yesterday were actually spirals (thanks T.B. for the input :)) and hope to go practice them again today if the wind lets up.
Diana,

Can you share about the spirals?

I don't know if I'd recognize the difference if I were in one. I guess the higher airspeed would be the main clue.
 
I never get sick of hearing about your flying.
 
Toby said:
Now that I think of it, I've never heard the stall horn. I wonder if we have one?

I don't remember hearing one when I flew your airplane. My Citabria doesn't have one, so it's all by feel.
 
Toby said:
Diana,
Can you share about the spirals?
I don't know if I'd recognize the difference if I were in one. I guess the higher airspeed would be the main clue.

Well, yesterday was my first time doing spins solo, so it's not all really clear. I did five of them, and two ended up being spirals, I think. The airpeed indicator was winding up faster, and I seemed to have lost more altitude with the spirals. It was an interesting flight. :)

Maybe somebody more knowledgeable will chime in here about spirals.
 
BruceAir said:
For more information about spins and spirals, see my post elsewhere on this board:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/showthread.php?p=6244#post6244

Thanks Bruce, it was good to read that one again.

None of the books that I have talk much about spirals, or list a recommended recovery technique. I assume it's the same as spin recovery? This was the first time I'd been in a spiral, and it seemed to recover the same way.

Is there ever a reason to do a spiral like that on purpose?
 
Diana said:
Thanks Bruce, it was good to read that one again.

None of the books that I have talk much about spirals, or list a recommended recovery technique. I assume it's the same as spin recovery? This was the first time I'd been in a spiral, and it seemed to recover the same way.

You recover a spiral with a coordinated return to level flight. You may also need forward stick pressure to prevent overstressing the wings, as your airspeed will likely be well beyond the trimmed airspeed once you level the wings. IOW recovery from a spiral is very different than from a spin. A couple of clues that you are in a spiral instead of a spin are 1> increasing airspeed (in a spin the airspeed may be well above stall, but it will be fairly constant), and 2> an increase in g force (this the most reliable).

Is there ever a reason to do a spiral like that on purpose?

Yes, to learn the proper recovery.
 
lancefisher said:
You recover a spiral with a coordinated return to level flight. You may also need forward stick pressure to prevent overstressing the wings, as your airspeed will likely be well beyond the trimmed airspeed once you level the wings. IOW recovery from a spiral is very different than from a spin. A couple of clues that you are in a spiral instead of a spin are 1> increasing airspeed (in a spin the airspeed may be well above stall, but it will be fairly constant), and 2> an increase in g force (this the most reliable).

Gosh, that's more information than I have found in any of my books. I'm a bit confused though. If you are already in a dive in a spiral why would you want forward stick?

lancefisher said:
Yes, to learn the proper recovery.

I wonder if spiral recovery is part of a spin recovery course?
 
In the C140 we could reliably wait for the ASI to indicate Zero. Usually at the end of the second 360 degrees.
 
Diana said:
Gosh, that's more information than I have found in any of my books. I'm a bit confused though. If you are already in a dive in a spiral why would you want forward stick?
That was the first question that occurred to me, too.



I wonder if spiral recovery is part of a spin recovery course?
It seems a good idea.
 
Diana said:
Gosh, that's more information than I have found in any of my books. I'm a bit confused though. If you are already in a dive in a spiral why would you want forward stick?
lancefisher
You may also need forward stick pressure to prevent overstressing the wings, as your airspeed will likely be well beyond the trimmed airspeed once you level the wings.[/quote]
I believe what lance is saying is you want to stop the spin first, before you stop the dive. Trying to stop the spin and also stop the descent at the same time would put a lot of extra g-load on the wings (because you need more lift to stop the descent if you're turning, as part of that lift is already being shunted off to the side).

Stop the spin first, and then very gradually reduce the rate of descent to slow the aircraft down to Va.

Is that right Lance?
 
First, make sure to make a distinction between a spin and a spiral. In a developed spin, the wings are stalled, the airspeed is low and stable (with perhaps some oscillations around the power-off stall speed). The airplane has achieved "autorotation." It is not really rolling as much as it is yawing.

A spiral is a steep, accelerating, descending turn. The airplane is not stalled. In fact, airspeed (and G-loads) increase rapidly. As others have noted here, recovery involves:

  1. Reducing power to idle
  2. Leveling the wings
As you level the wings, more of the vertical component of points toward the ground, and the nose comes up quickly (because you're carrying a lot of speed--generally well into the yellow arc if you've completed more than turn--and in any case well beyond the last trimmed speed. You shouldn't haul back on the yoke or stick to recover from the dive, because you'll probably exceed the airplane's G-limits. Hence the note that you might need to apply forward pressure on the stick to keep the airplane from starting a zoom climb.

It's vitally important, however, that you read up on spins, steep spirals, etc. and receive competent instruction in this maneuvers in an appropriate aircraft. I know that spins are complicated and that there's lots of material to read. But don't try to understand these phenomena and how to handle them in your aircraft from a few postings in a forum. Do some research (there are any excellent, readable references available free on the Web) and find a competent instructor who will answer your questions in detail.

Here are some links to resources that I find useful and recommend as pre-course reading to my students:

http://www.bruceair.com/spins.htm (see the bottom of the page)

The FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook (the Bible for instructors on how to fly maneuvers required on FAA practical tests and an excellent overview of flying technique), is on the Training Handbooks page at the FAA's Web site (which is also listed in the Links section of Pilots of America). The Airplane Flying Handbook has excellent, readable sections on spins and spirals.
 
Greebo said:
I believe what lance is saying is you want to stop the spin first, before you stop the dive.
Chuck, I was referring to the spiral with that question. :)
 
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BruceAir said:
First, make sure to make a distinction between a spin and a spiral. In a developed spin, the wings are stalled, the airspeed is low and stable (with perhaps some oscillations around the power-off stall speed). The airplane has achieved "autorotation." It is not really rolling as much as it is yawing.
A spiral is a steep, accelerating, descending turn. The airplane is not stalled. In fact, airspeed (and G-loads) increase rapidly.
From all that I have read, and now experienced, it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between the two at the onset.

Hypothetical question. What would happen if a student were to use the Muller/Beggs procedure in a spiral, thinking that it was a spin (of course it would depend on how developed the spin and what aircraft)?


BruceAir said:
It's vitally important, however, that you read up on spins, steep spirals, etc.

This morning I've been pouring over all my aerobatic and spin reference books and am surprised that not more is mentioned about spirals. Most briefly mention that a spiral can happen, but so far I can only find one, "Surviving Spins" that actually gives a recovery technique.


BruceAir said:
Here are some links to resources that I find useful and recommend as pre-course reading to my students:
The Airplane Flying Handbook has excellent, readable sections on spins and spirals.

I've been reading that one, too. I wish they would go into more detail about inadvertent spirals.

Thanks Bruce. I appreciate your response, and am glad that you're posting here and adding your expertise to this forum.
 
It's often difficult to distinguish between the initial stages of spins and spirals. Remember, that a spin often takes more than one turn to stabilize. Most discussions of spins note that the phenomenon has four phases: Entry, Incipient, Developed, and Recovery.

For example, even in my Extra 300L, a high-performance aerobatic aircraft, an intentional spin doesn't stablize until the aircraft has completed one complete turn.

Again, it's really important to understand the distinction between an incipient and a developed spin. New students invariably think we're in a true spin as soon as the airplane departs at the stall. It takes a conscious effort to hold full pro-spin controls and patience to allow a stabilized spin to develop.

In most aircraft, relaxing any pressure on the rudder or elevator after the break will delay or prevent a stabilized spin from developing. Relaxing pressure as the spin develops typically converts the spin into a spiral (or accelerates the spin, if you relax back pressure on the elevator).

For example, the C172, which can be spun when flown in the utility category, is very hard get into and hold in a developed spin. After the initial break, it wants to enter a spiral, as discussed in the airplane handbook and the Cessna supplements on spins.

For more information about spins, see Chapter 4, "Slow Flight, Stalls, and Spins" in The Airplane Flying Handbook, which notes:
The most common problems in spin recovery include
pilot confusion as to the direction of spin rotation and
whether the maneuver is a spin versus spiral. If the
airspeed is increasing, the airplane is no longer in a
spin but in a spiral. In a spin, the airplane is stalled.
The indicated airspeed, therefore, should reflect
stall speed.
Chapter 9, "Performance Maneuvers," discusses power-off steep spirals, primarly as a maneuver to keep the airplane over an emergency landing area.

The so-called graveyard spiral (what probably killed JFK junior) is usually discussed when talking about spatial disorientation and loss of control during flight in IMC. A good summary of this phenomenon is available online at: http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-400A/Brochures/spatialD2/spatialD2_home.htm

You'll also find more information about the graveyard spiral in the FAA's Instrument Flying Handbook. Of course, the airplane doesn't know whether it's in or out of the clouds, so the information about the phenomenon applies to VFR flight.

Another good source of information is 61-67C, Stall and Spin Awareness Training, available online at http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/a2fdf912342e575786256ca20061e343/$FILE/AC61-67C.pdf

About spirals, it notes:

112. SPIRAL MODE RECOVERY. The spiral mode is an autorotation mode similar to a spin. The center of rotation is close to the centerline of the airplane but the airplane is not stalled. Many airplanes and gliders will not spin at forward CG locations but will spiral. Many airplanes will enter a spin but the spin will become more vertical and degenerate into a spiral. It is important to note that when the spin transitions into the spiral the airspeed will increase as the nose goes down to near vertical. The side forces on the airplane build very rapidly and recovery must be effected immediately before exceeding the structural limits of the airplane. Release the back pressure on the stick (yoke), neutralize the rudder and recover from the steep dive. As in the spin recovery, avoid abrupt or excessive elevator inputs that could lead to a secondary stall.
 
Diana said:
Gosh, that's more information than I have found in any of my books. I'm a bit confused though. If you are already in a dive in a spiral why would you want forward stick?

You apply forward stick to unload the wings as/after you roll the wings level. At that point you are likely flying a lot faster than the trim speed so the plane wants to pitch up all by itself and that pitch up may exceed the maximum G-loading if you don't push, or worse yet if you pull which is the natural tendency since the nose is low. While in a spiral, the g-load goes up and the airspeed will increase well above the level flight trim speed.

I wonder if spiral recovery is part of a spin recovery course?

It should be.
 
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Greebo said:
I believe what lance is saying is you want to stop the spin first, before you stop the dive. Trying to stop the spin and also stop the descent at the same time would put a lot of extra g-load on the wings (because you need more lift to stop the descent if you're turning, as part of that lift is already being shunted off to the side).

Stop the spin first, and then very gradually reduce the rate of descent to slow the aircraft down to Va.

Is that right Lance?

Well, first of all I thought we were talking spiral not spin. Second, as I explained in another post, the purpose of forward stick pressure is to keep the g loading from exceeding the aircraft's (or the pilot's) limits. And to that end, what you suggest is correct in all cases where you have high g-loads. In such a situation, you shouldn't apply a large aileron deflection, until the g-load is reduced.
 
BruceAir said:
First, make sure to make a distinction between a spin and a spiral. In a developed spin, the wings are stalled, the airspeed is low and stable (with perhaps some oscillations around the power-off stall speed). The airplane has achieved "autorotation." It is not really rolling as much as it is yawing.

Bruce, I agree with everything else in your post except the itallicized part of the above quote. IME airspeed often reads up to 20% above Vso, at least when the pitot is mounted on the wing the plane is yawing away from.

Like you said though, the airpspeed will pretty much stabilize in a spin whereas in a spiral it will just keep increasing. Even if you began near Vso you can exceed Va fairly quickly in a spiral.
 
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Diana said:
Hypothetical question. What would happen if a student were to use the Muller/Beggs procedure in a spiral, thinking that it was a spin (of course it would depend on how developed the spin and what aircraft)?

Interesting question. Cutting the throttle would be a good move in a spiral, but I can't imagine that ruddering out of the turn would be very effective in an aerobatic airplane, and with the stick released to do what it wants, there's a very real chance of an overstressing pullup.

Remember in a spiral, the G-force will increase and in very little time it will be well above 1 g, which should be easy to notice. In addition the airspeed will be climbing rapidly, which should also be quite recognizable without looking at the ASI.
 
BruceAir said:
Another good source of information is 61-67C, Stall and Spin Awareness Training, available online at http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/a2fdf912342e575786256ca20061e343/$FILE/AC61-67C.pdf

About spirals, it notes:

112. SPIRAL MODE RECOVERY. The spiral mode is an autorotation mode similar to a spin. The center of rotation is close to the centerline of the airplane but the airplane is not stalled. Many airplanes and gliders will not spin at forward CG locations but will spiral. Many airplanes will enter a spin but the spin will become more vertical and degenerate into a spiral. It is important to note that when the spin transitions into the spiral the airspeed will increase as the nose goes down to near vertical. The side forces on the airplane build very rapidly and recovery must be effected immediately before exceeding the structural limits of the airplane. Release the back pressure on the stick (yoke), neutralize the rudder and recover from the steep dive. As in the spin recovery, avoid abrupt or excessive elevator inputs that could lead to a secondary stall.

Thanks Bruce. That's what I was looking for; it's the best description I've seen in writing so far.
 
BruceAir said:
It's often difficult to distinguish between the initial stages of spins and spirals.......etc.etc.
Bruce, I just wanted to say thank you for your comprehensive and informative posts. Your time and expertise are very much appreciated!
 
Toby, I'm glad you're getting spun every which way. I did my first spin this past weekend (full writeup soon), a 3 turn spin to the left.

We entered the spin in a rather unusual way, I was expecting to just do the slow flight thing, pull power, stall, and then add pro-spin rudder. No way Jose!

He had me start at 85kts, pitch up 30-40 degrees, and simultaneously pull power, pull full stick back and full left rudder. Basically enter a left snap roll, but with no power. The plane got inverted in a normal snap attitude, but after that, departed. For a few seconds, I really couldn't tell what was up, except for the plane starting to stall and being VERY unusual.

Then it really snapped into the spin, man, you could feel the angular acceleration! Then, we were pointed very down, and the whole world spun about the prop spinner. Once fully developed, he told me to count out three turns. I remembered to count every other time I saw the road we were lined up under.

Then anti-spin inputs, and pull out of the dive. It took a good 5-6 seconds to get the buzzing out of my head, and maybe a minute of straight and level to feel totally normal again.

A REAL eye opener!!!!

Oh, and he said, "If you think left spins are fun, wait until you spin this bird to the right"

Next lesson.
 
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Bill,

Oh, wow! That sounds scary! Part of the extreme feeling of it is the newness for you. After you do a bunch of these, they will start to feel more normal. Repetition seems to be the key.

I haven't done 3-turn spins yet, as my instructor wanted to start small until I developed situational awareness in the spin. So I've been doing 1-turn spins and recovering on the heading I started out on. I'm pretty sure I'm ready for more developed spins now.

You don't pull power gradually while you're doing your clearing turns? I do another part of the routine differently, too. I don't deliberately pitch up, I just pull the stick back very slowly until it's all the way back. Of course, I am pitched up slightly to maintain altitude in slow flight.

Well, Bill, after all this, if we can't recognize when a stall is around the corner, we are hopeless!
 
Spins and visual stabilization

Bill Jennings said:
A REAL eye opener!!!!
Speaking of which, there is an interesting discussion in “Surviving Spins” about ocular movements, nystagmus, and the discrepancy between the visual and vestibular mechanisms in a spin. One comment that makes me wonder how pilots can do a 10-turn spin: “After about five turns the eye movement is out of synchrony with the airplane rotation. The pilot now has a blurred, streaked visual reference, and the spin appears to have increased in speed. It is theorized that the lack of visual stabilization is due to decreased signals from the semicircular canals. At this point the pilot has difficulty determining the number of turns in the spin.”

Glad you enjoyed your lesson Bill. I’m thinking I’ll be entering intentional spins in the Citabria the gentle way. :)
 
The technique that Bill described is similar to a method for introducing snap rolls that's discussed in Advanced Aerobatics, by Geza Szurovy and Mike Goulian (see p. 42)*.

According to that book, the method, attributed to Jim Holland, involves the following steps:


  1. Reduce power to 50 percent.
  2. Raise the nose to slow to 70 mph.
  3. Push the nose down 30 degrees below the horizon.
  4. At 100 mph, pull 3Gs to raise the nose.
  5. As the nose reaches 5 degrees above the horizon, apply full rudder in the direction you want to snap.
  6. When the wings return to level, apply full opposite rudder to stop the rotation.
*Goulian's books are well worth studying. Although you certainly can't learn aerobatics from a book (safely, at least), you also can't learn the maneuvers without understanding the theory. I recommend Basic Aerobatics as well.
 
BruceAir said:
that's discussed in Advanced Aerobatics, by Geza Szurovy and Mike Goulian (see p. 42)*.

I recommend Basic Aerobatics as well.

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll likely buy the basic to start with. Man, this is fun, but I'm also sad. I'm 1/2 way thru the course, and this will end all too soon.

I'm slowing trying to talk "The Boss" into a Citabria, but she wants us to buy a travel plane when the time comes.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll likely buy the basic to start with. Man, this is fun, but I'm also sad. I'm 1/2 way thru the course, and this will end all too soon.

I'm slowing trying to talk "The Boss" into a Citabria, but she wants us to buy a travel plane when the time comes.

Bill, you can travel in a Citabria. Tom and I flew ours to northern British Columbia a few years ago trying to get to Alaska. A friend of mine used to fly his Citabria back and forth to Alaska. We fly ours to Oshkosh every year and camp under the wing. I am flying it to Alabama next week to spend time with Greg Koontz. That's the nice thing about the Citabria; it's versatile.
 
Diana said:
Bill, you can travel in a Citabria. ...snip...That's the nice thing about the Citabria; it's versatile.

Baby makes three ;-)

(Actually a 2.5yr old..)

I've tried the argument, we can use the flying club planes for travel, and get an aerobatic plane for fun....but no dice yet.
 
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