"speedy" the home-built

iWantWings

iWantWings

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
437
Location
Southern California
Display Name
Display name:
wingsIwant
When I'm not doing a flight lesson and I have the time, I stop by the local uncontrolled airport to watch planes fly the pattern.

This past weekend was great - lots of activity, with many different planes, and some interesting flights to watch.

I get a pretty good vantage point and wihle tuned to the local common traffic, i hear planes announcing the approach to the 45* entry, I see the planes already in the pattern as well as the ones waiting to take the active runway. And while I get this panoramic view of all that goes on I try to put myself in the cockpit of any one plane in particular and ask myself "what would I do?". Fun stuff.

And so it was that I got to a scenario where I had the choice of 4 planes to chose from. Here's my attempt at a lengthy play-by-play.


Phase 1
  1. "Number one" is on short final.
  2. followed at a safe distance by "Number two" who had just turned base to final, as well.
  3. There is another C150 rolling on the active runway at full power and is just about to rotate (at the "speed" of a C150).
  4. Here's the interesting part: a speedy little homebuilt is holding short with its nose right on the line dividing the active runway from the taxiway at the start of the runway. Although he was holding short, I was watching him (I'll call him "speedy") with interest because the pilot's patterns surely garnered my interest.
Phase 2
  1. Maybe about 5 seconds after the C150 rotated, the speedy little homebuilt darted onto the runway while announcing taking active for takeoff.
  2. At the same time, the other 2 planes on final had made it closer to the numbers, with safe distance between them - but "Number 1" now was interestingly close to "speedy" that just took active.
  3. The C150 that rotated and took off, begins its veeery lazy climb on upwind.
Phase 3
  1. "Speedy" begins its takeoff roll. And this thing is a little racer.
  2. "Number one" and "Number 2" slow down on final - and somehow don't lose lift.
  3. C150 on upwind forgot it is a plane, and "climbs" like a kite at the end of its rope: going nowhere fast.
Final Phase
  1. number 1 is on the ground and number 2 becomes "number one" on short final.
  2. "speedy" is closing up very fast on the c150 that was already on the upwind.
  3. Then "speedy" does something pretty spectacular: it's as if it lit the afterburners, does a mad, mad climb and outclimbs the C 150, on upwind, slightly to its right.
  4. I am convinced "speedy" had such a nose high attitude that in no way was it able to see the C150 while it outclimbed it in its mad sky-ward dash. I taught they were pretty close.
So "speedy", the home-built, did two things that got my attention: First, it squeezed onto the active runway while 2 planes were on final and another lazily began its upwind climb. Second, the mad climb and flight right over the top of the lazy C150, on upwind. Kind of a blind pass.

Surely this was not by the book - at least not the way I'm learning thigns - but I assume "speedy" the home-built did everything it did intentionally while having sight of all the other players. It was interesting to watch but that is one time I didn't wish to be in any one of those 4 planes (and I was glad to be on the ground with a tight grip on the hand-held radio).
 
If someone is on base, I feel like I probably have time. I will still talk to them, so I don't bend any egos. If someone is on short final, I wait for them to land. As far as taking the runway 5 seconds after rotation, that seems a little quick, especially since he is faster, but it might have been OK. Being in that much of a hurry can cause a lot of problems.
 
"Speedy", in my opinion, is an inconsiderate, risk taking "pilot". Jumping onto the active with not one, but two people on final is not right. Several things could have gone wrong, putting three different airplanes in potentially dangerous situations.
Like you, I sometimes sit on the approach path at my home airport and watch the traffic, listening with my backup handheld. Although, being a towered airport, this type of thing could never occur.
 
Last edited:
I'm glad Cessna taking off didn't have a power failure and attempt a return to the runway. Head ons with impatient jerks are really a great way to spoil your day.
 
By the way - if you're at an uncontrolled airport it will be a preferred runway, not an active. Some people will give you grief for using the wrong terminology.


Were there aircraft also on base/downwind? No excuse to be impatient, but it may explain why he was in such a hurry to depart. It doesn't excuse his radical maneuvering though.
 
Certainly not condoning the behavior, and I definitely would not take the runway with an aircraft on short final...

however...

Let's define "short final"... was that 1/2 mile? 200 yards? Short final for me is when I'm dropping through 100' AGL, not everyone defines it the same. Some of these homebuilts have gross-weight takeoff rolls under 500 feet and will climb in excess of 2000fpm at 90 knots at more typical weights. Takeoff is not a process, it's an event. All you need is a 10-second window of time for the runway and you're above the traffic pattern well before mid-field. From your description of "speedy" it sounds like you were watching one of these high performers.

As for the C-150 on upwind - it's see and avoid. As long as the departing aircraft made the radio calls and had visual contact with #1 on final and the departing C-150 (with adequate spacing - and that's pretty subjective) then it's kosher. The key here is what each individual would call "adequate" spacing and "short" final. A student shooting crash-and-dash practice with a 2-mile box pattern is not going to be comfortable at all with my typical 1/4-mile base-to-final with high sink rate. Does that make me unsafe? Or simply more proficient and comfortable with the performance of my machine?

An aircraft on 1/4 mile final owns the runway in my opinion. 1/2 mile final gets a little fuzzy depending on the performance of my airplane - if I'm flying a 172 I'll wait, if flying a "speedy" I'm outta there. A typical RV at best rate of climb will be moving forward faster than the aircraft on final, so the spacing does not decrease and the RV will be at TPA and turning for departure heading 30 seconds after taking the runway. The guy on final ceases to be part of the traffic equation in that case when I push the throttle up, because he is simply not capable of catching me. If for any reason I have to abort the takeoff, the aircraft on final has the birds-eye view for a go-around and we all practice that situation.
 
Last edited:
First, welcome to the world of uncontrolled airports. It can get ... interesting ... out there. Keep you wits about you!

Second, maybe the C-150 was pedaling as fast as he could!

Third, and I don't endorse Speedy's actions at all, you said Speedy climbed out slightly to the right. I am assuming a left pattern at this airport? Speedy may have had the C-150 in sight at all times. Back in primary training, my CFI taught me this technique to keep traffic in sight while doing a go around because of conflicting traffic on the runway.

Speedy clearly has a high-performing aircraft. He used that performance but he was counting on lots of things going right and nothing going wrong:

. C-150 would turn left and would continue to climb out, albeit slowly.
. Speedy's aircraft would perform well and not need to try the impossible turn.
. Neither #1 nor #2 would decide to go around and level off and accelerate.

Now tell me that Speedy returned to land using an overhead break!

-Skip
 
CBeaulieu said:
By the way - if you're at an uncontrolled airport it will be a preferred runway, not an active. Some people will give you grief for using the wrong terminology...
Click to expand...

At a pilot controlled field I prefer to call it the "runway in use" and there may be more than one. There may be a "preferred runway" but I may use a different runway if it fits my purposes better and the winds allow. At my home field 17 is the preferred runway (or calm wind runway) but nothing says you can't land/takeoff from 35 if it's more convenient. I agree that there is no "active" runway unless there's a tower to activate it.
 
I have never been confused by the phraseology of "active runway" for the runway that is presently in use at an uncontrolled airport. Same same to me, even if technically incorrect.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I have never been confused by the phraseology of "active runway" for the runway that is presently in use at an uncontrolled airport. Same same to me, even if technically incorrect.
Click to expand...

We often see 2 runways in use at AWO and BVS.

The tail draggers will use the runway closest to the wind, and the others will continue to do cross wind landings.
 
Skip Miller said:
First, welcome to the world of uncontrolled airports. It can get ... interesting ... out there. Keep you wits about you!

Second, maybe the C-150 was pedaling as fast as he could!

Third, and I don't endorse Speedy's actions at all, you said Speedy climbed out slightly to the right. I am assuming a left pattern at this airport? Speedy may have had the C-150 in sight at all times. Back in primary training, my CFI taught me this technique to keep traffic in sight while doing a go around because of conflicting traffic on the runway.

Speedy clearly has a high-performing aircraft. He used that performance but he was counting on lots of things going right and nothing going wrong:

. C-150 would turn left and would continue to climb out, albeit slowly.
. Speedy's aircraft would perform well and not need to try the impossible turn.
. Neither #1 nor #2 would decide to go around and level off and accelerate.

Now tell me that Speedy returned to land using an overhead break!

-Skip
Click to expand...

I say I agree with this here.
Several things could go wrong, setting up a chain of accidents. I don't care how good of a pilot "Speedy" is, how much performance his plane has. What if one or both of those pilots on final are student pilots, speedy has an engine failure, and go arounds are necessary for the pilots on final? Part of the PTS is ADM. While "Speedy" may have great situational awareness, I believe he displayed poor ADM.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
While "Speedy" may have great situational awareness, I believe he displayed poor ADM.
Click to expand...
Kind of what I thought too. He was counting on nothing going wrong with his plane, OR the 150.

"CAN" does not necessarily imply "SHOULD".
 
On different days I had seen the same plane - and am assuming it was piloted by the same person - being flown in the pattern and it always got my attention.

The stick-and-rudder sklils were evident to me - but maybe I am easely impressed. And the plane was so fast that sometimes it was flying what I would describe as a "concentric, inner pattern". By that I mean the plane's pattern was inside the pattern of other airplanes (for example, "speedy" would turn from upwind to crosswind before another plane higher on upwind would make its crosswind turn).

And at the times I saw this, it happened so very fast that I didn't think compromised anyone's safety.

In any case, what I am learning from the posts is that just because your plane can do it, doesn't necessarily mean you should do certain things. Also, the more you push the limit, the less options the pilot and other pilots involved may have to recover from a failure.

My personal, non-pilot opinion is that a flight should be such that it should not unnecessarily reduce the safe-recovery options of other pilots. Of course, there's always an argument of what sort of flight that is or is not.

Edit: Thank you for teaching me the difference between a towered "active runway" and uncontrolled airport's "preferred runway". Now i know :D
 
I found myself in the same situation as "speedy" once. Busy fly-in at a non-towered airport with a long line of airplanes waiting to depart and another long line of arrivals.

There was gap in arrivals and the C-150 in front of me departed. After he broke ground, there seemed to be room for me to depart in the RV-6. My assumption was that since he was already doing ~70, and had a quarter mile lead on me, I wouldn't catch him until well after we reached the other end of the runway.

That didn't go as planned. I won't make that mistake again.

Maybe speedy didn't realize how quickly a fast airplane can close on a slow airplane...
 
I believe the OP should never watch operations at OSH during the fly-in.
 
CBeaulieu said:
Were there aircraft also on base/downwind? No excuse to be impatient, but it may explain why he was in such a hurry to depart. It doesn't excuse his radical maneuvering though.
Click to expand...

That may explain it, but isn't a good reason to do it, IMHO. Sit there and wait.

I'd say I just try to mimic spaces seen at Towered airports by controllers, but that's shaky advice too. I've seen Tower controllers create some sketchy moments too.

In those cases, pilots fall into the "someone in authority just told me to go" trap and don't think. And they don't exercise their ability to say, "unable". I've done it...

The more I fly, the less I want to relinquish my safety to even the friendly and helpful folks in the Tower cab. If it looks sketchy, I hope "unable" comes out of my mouth more often.
 
It's a 110 degrees, I'm setting at the hold short with my cht's going off the scale, the aircraft on final is 2 minutes out, I'm outta here bye bye, see ya.

Level with the 150, right turn on course, continue to climb.

If you can't do that don't go to Anchorage and and try to operate off Lake Hood sea plane port.

When you hear a super cub check in " 47L final, cleared to land 18 behind the Otter". you best figure out how to get outta there.
 
Last edited:
Tom-D said:
It's a 110 degrees, I'm setting at the hold short with my cht's going off the scale, the aircraft on final is 2 minutes out, I'm outta here bye bye, see ya.

Level with the 150, right turn on course, continue to climb.

If you can't do that don't go to Anchorage and and try to operate off Lake Hood sea plane port.

When you hear a super cub check in " 47L final, cleared to land 18 behind the Otter". you best figure out how to get outta there.
Click to expand...

Sure, still doesn't make it safe. Just means you saved your engine.

Lake Hood is significantly different from the scenario offered up here. Non-sequitur.
 
We're you listening on the radio?
It could be that "speedy" asked the #1 on final if he could squeeze in for a quick departure.

As for out climbing the C150 on the downwind, if "speedy" is leaving the airport traffic area for the practice area or elsewhere. Then I would expect that the faster aircraft would offset to the outside of the pattern where he could watch the C150 off to the side until speedy's wing got in the way or he otherwise lost sight of the C150.

Without listening on the radio, you have no idea of any conversations that transpired between the pilots for coordination. For someone to imply that speedy was arrogant and a threat to the others is a poor judgement without knowing the facts.
 
BillTIZ said:
We're you listening on the radio?
Click to expand...

Yes, I was listening to the airport's CTAF. That is written in the original post but likely diluted by the lengthy text.



BillTIZ said:
Without listening on the radio, you have no idea of any conversations that transpired between the pilots for coordination. For someone to imply that speedy was arrogant and a threat to the others is a poor judgement without knowing the facts.
Click to expand...

What I have seen and heard, is what I've written. You think my post is without fact and poor judgement. As expected, people who know a lot more than I do about flying replied with different opinions. I learn from the posts and when they are contradictory, I lean towards what I think is safer.
 
denverpilot said:
Sure, still doesn't make it safe. Just means you saved your engine.

Lake Hood is significantly different from the scenario offered up here. Non-sequitur.
Click to expand...

It is as safe as you make it.

If you can't operate safe in a busy airspace, you best learn how or not go there.
 
Tom-D said:
It is as safe as you make it.

If you can't operate safe in a busy airspace, you best learn how or not go there.
Click to expand...
Agreed, I fly in some of the busiest airspace in the CONUS and if I saw this "Speedy" character, I'd bug out as soon as I could...
 
You see the same risky behavior driving every day. The ones to worry about are not the ones who know their equipment, it's ALWAYS the other guy. Maybe Speedy "knows" how he will handle an emergency. But maybe the guy on final (I'd say short final inside a mile) was a stu on his first solo cross country. Maybe the C150 driver was.
When you get someone else involved, things become unpredictable. The prudent and safe thing to do was to wait. You cannot predict what the other pilots will do.
By the way, just because someone is flying a B52 pattern, there isn't any excuse for cutting inside him and diving for the runway.
Like driving, a little patience could save a life, LIKE YOURS!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top