Speeding camera ticket

nddons

nddons

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Stan
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I received a love note from the city of Medina, TN today asking for $50. The ticket is for 12 over, which is surprising because I rarely ever go that much over, especially around small towns. Especially south of the Mason-Dixon line. :)

It's not deemed a moving violation, and will not give me any points. I'm going to pay it, but how would someone fight these things? How do you fight sensors under the road and a camera?
 
Google may be your friend. I got a ticket the old fashioned way a few years ago and did a lot of online research to see how I could fight it.
 
CA has plenty stoplight cameras and it's a $500 hit. Makes you paranoid to stop one foot across the line and I'm a naturally cautious driver at this point in my life.
 
Make sure you are legally required to pay it.

In some places, the camera operator has no standing to issue real tickets so they send out official-looking "citations" and just take what they can get.
 
Please do fight it. Don't support a communist revenue generation scheme. yeah I invoked the C word but that's what it is. I seriously hate that ****

Sorry if this is a spin zone thing or whatever but that is how I feel.
 
In one city near DC, they declined to renew the contract after the (outsourced) camera service provider raised their take to something like 66%.

There is a pure profit motive here for both the city and the company.
 
No "points," because it is a civil matter, not a criminal one. Makes sheep-like compliance more likely. These devices are not safety-promoters, they are simply and purely revenue-collection devices.

I knew a lawyer once who, having been told that parking citations in Dallas were civil, not criminal, prepared and served a complete set of discovery documents (Requests for Admissions, Request for Production of Documents and Interrogatories) on the city.

They dismissed the ticket.
 
I've always wondered how cameras are going to come to court to meet the requirements of the offer of a trial where you can know who your accuser was. If it's a totally automated process, is my accuser the software engineer who wrote the code that runs the camera?
 
denverpilot said:
I've always wondered how cameras are going to come to court to meet the requirements of the offer of a trial where you can know who your accuser was. If it's a totally automated process, is my accuser the software engineer who wrote the code that runs the camera?
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No jurisdiction I know of has ever allowed a court challenge of speed cameras to reach the appellate level, fearing a precedent-setting published decision; they just rely upon the cost of such legal action being prohibitive in relation to the benefit to be obtained, and dismiss charge as against the occasional curmudgeon who opts to continue the fight, rendering the matter moot and no decision at all.
 
Plead not guilty. when someone comes in to testify - object- if they were not there its hearsay.

There are 10,0001 reasons why no one should ever be convicted of a moving violation - whether you 'did' it or not.

And yes - google in your state is your friend - there are so many defenses in California just showing up with a thick manila folder gets you dismissed - plus - I know the rules of evidence - which makes every single trial a tour de force for a prosecutor who phones it in 5 days a week . .. most people fight the wrong things - you get a radar ticket - don't fight the radar - learn how to use the cops testimony against him/her. As in:

Prosecutor: "tell us about your qualifications on the radar unit"

Cop - I am certified - etc etc

Me: "Officer, tell me about your training."

Cop: About what?

M: well, you said you had training - when was it?

C. uh.

Where was it? - uh. I think -

I don't want your thoughts - do you recall?

This goes on and on til we discover he has a certificate of completion =

really - what was your score? What was the passing score? Oh there WAS no passing score?

How does Radar work? How far away was I? What was the width of the beam at that point? Traffic on the street - and it goes on and on and on.

Eventually you reach a point where there is no direct evidence of calibration of the unit from this officer. Case dismissed. Unless you find some other reason first.

Last ticket I got I had FIVE good defenses - all of which could easily be proven. However - I never got to any of them -

Got the citation on February 3. Response date was April 3. I pled not guilty online on March 30. Court scheduled trial for May 15. Then, I get a letter from the prosecutor continuing the trial to May 31 due to officer 'unavailability.' Vacation or training, obviously.

California has a rule whereby one is entitled to a trial within 45 days. I stood up and moved to dismiss when the case was called - after some effort where the lawyer serving as pro-tem could not seem to count - the Prosecutor tried some lame punt on the grounds that I never objected when I got his letter - to which I replied that it was his job as an officer of the court to raise the timing issue himself - and that I should report him to the ethics panel for not doing so - amazingly at that point the judge pro tem seemed to recover his math skills and dismissed the case.

I got a real nasty look from that young prosecutor - to which I said - "look, I'm a member of our bar too, and I hope you'll learn the rules."

You want a REAL defense? That will get you dismissed most times? Prepare a Request for Disclosure of Documents. ASk for "every document upon which you intend to rely in the prosecution of this case."

They will ignore you - they always fail to respond in traffic cases.

You go to trial. You then object to every piece of paper they intend to submit into evidence as a discovery sanction. Do NOT back down - do not allow them to intimidate you. They will ask you 'why was it important for you to see this before today,' or 'you already have this paper.' DOES NOT MATTER.

Without the paper they probably cannot prove essential elements of their case - never stipulate to ANYTHING. Make sure they have certified copies of any public records they want to introduce -

Like I said - there is no reason for anyone to be convicted - remember that the prosecuting attorneys are on the lowest rung and are learning - give them a lesson.

PS: if the traffic camera citation is a civil or administrative proceeding you need to insist that they comply with the CIVIL rules of procedure - which means that you get an answer, motions to dismiss, discovery, and the right to insist on proper service - via a motion to quash. You'll NEVER get to court.
 
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Do your civic duty and spray paint those camera lenses.
 
Should it worry me that I found commanchepilot's post FUN? All the rules... just there to be messed with... strung up by their own procedures...
 
denverpilot said:
Should it worry me that I found commanchepilot's post FUN? All the rules... just there to be messed with... strung up by their own procedures...
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Nate - you gotta make it fun - I mean, assuming we're talking garden variety traffic tickets no accidents no one got hurt no property damage - its a game.

If EVERYONE pled not guilty to their tickets and did not take traffic school, the court system would grind to a halt and every traffic officer would be in court every single day - this alone would STOP them writing tickets and would have the 'system' pleading for mercy. Imagine every city and town around you, every state highway patrol every ticket given out every day has everyone pleading not guilty. The system would collapse.
 
I just barely talked my way out of a ticket just prior to OSH a few weeks ago, and without saying I was definitely due one...

I may or may not have misjudged a left turn in front of a Sheriff (our Sheriff's dept. handles City calls here, a weird setup where our city hasn't bothered building their own PD... outsourced it to the Sheriff's Dept for the county instead... 10 years into city-hood and still no dedicated PD...) and he had to hit the brakes.

I was tired and really misjudged it. About 11PM at night. Green light, but no arrow kinda thing... left turn...

The part that was both sad and scary was that he was a K9 guy and the dog hit the partition. I felt really really bad.

He was incredibly ****ed off... I mean, scary ****ed... like, "Oh crap, if I say the wrong thing I'm going to be hauled out of this Yukon and I'm going to eat pavement", kind of ****ed...

After he calmed down a bit, I think... he believed me that I really did care about his partner. For a bit there I thought I was about three seconds from having the crap kicked out of me.

I have numerous friends who train K9 animals, love dogs myself, etc. I was mortified.

Haven't done anything that dumb behind the wheel in a very long time. I think, but can't prove, that he was accelerating too... think he was within the speed limit, but he was pacing another Sheriff's vehicle going the same way. Somehow my brain saw the first cop car go by, and then said "go"... wasn't even fully engaged really...

I'm sure the side of a Yukon doesn't look too good at 45 MPH.

I'm an exceedingly mellow driver, learned my lessons long long ago about speeding and doing stupid stuff in 3000-6000 lb. rolling boxes. Put my Jeep on its side on a dirt road... I got all that crap out of my system looooong ago.

Honestly freaked me out a lot. Was still hyped up when Karen got home around midnight from her rehearsal and dinner afterward and she had to listen to me blab about the whole thing for 10 minutes.

I later sent him an e-mail with some links to some of the photos and websites of the friends who train the K9, Cadaver, and Avalanche dogs. Mostly just as a way to say, "Hey, I know the general public lies to you guys to get out of stuff all the time, but I really DO know folks who train dogs, and really do love pups..."

Poor pup. Not fun to get a cage to the face because of some idiot in an SUV. (me.)
 
Stan, just toss the "ticket" in the trash. You will notice no mention of a court of any kind. They want you to send it to a police officer in the town. This scam is happening all over TN. The little towns are making a mint and the camera owners are getting rich. Other towns are Union City, and Hunnington. There are others. Got two from Hunnington. It is simply a request for a $50 donation. You MIGHT get a second letter but I doubt it.

You can go the the web site shown on the letter and down load a form to dispute it. If you want to have some fun tell them it was not you and that several people have access to the car. Anyway, unless it refers to a court, it is a donation request.
 
denverpilot said:
Should it worry me that I found commanchepilot's post FUN? All the rules... just there to be messed with... strung up by their own procedures...
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I was right there with you. :rofl:
 
ronnieh said:
Stan, just toss the "ticket" in the trash. You will notice no mention of a court of any kind. They want you to send it to a police officer in the town. This scam is happening all over TN. The little towns are making a mint and the camera owners are getting rich. Other towns are Union City, and Hunnington. There are others. Got two from Hunnington. It is simply a request for a $50 donation. You MIGHT get a second letter but I doubt it.

You can go the the web site shown on the letter and down load a form to dispute it. If you want to have some fun tell them it was not you and that several people have access to the car. Anyway, unless it refers to a court, it is a donation request.
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Bad advice in some jurisdictions - they'll put a block on renewal of the car registration (hurting the owner even if the owner wasn't driving) regardless of the driver. Car registration can't be renewed without paying the fine and big penalties.
 
Not that I'd ever advocate something illegal...but you could always find someone who works with the system, borrow their license plates and then drive past every camera you can find. There's such justice in that, it's too bad you can't actually do it.
 
bflynn said:
Not that I'd ever advocate something illegal...but you could always find someone who works with the system, borrow their license plates and then drive past every camera you can find. There's such justice in that, it's too bad you can't actually do it.
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I remember reading about a crew in the UK, where they use cameras mounted on vans on the side of the road. Someone snuck up to the van, carefully removed it's license plates, mounted the license plates on their own car, then made multiple speed runs past the van.
 
We have signs up here in MD and DC that say "Photo Enforced" below the speed limit sign. About 3/4 to a 1 mile up the road, there is the camera with the lines on the ground. If you are going 11+ over the limit, they will take a picture of your car and fine you.

First of all, if you speed through the camera despite seeing the "Photo Enforced" sign, you deserve the fine. You knew it was coming, why didn't you slow down? However, this does not mean crawl through the camera zone, which is what most people do. Just drive a normal on the limit or five above through the camera.

Second, I don't know how these things are regulated but getting a camera fine for speeding in a school zone at 8:00 p.m. on a Sunday in the middle of summer is a bit peculiar. Same goes for the empty work zones on the same days. Those are the ones I would contest, because no child is in school at 8:00 p.m. on a Sunday in the middle of summer.

Third, I don't know how effective they are. My girlfriend, how I love her so, is not very attentive when it comes to driving. I often look over to find us speeding. She has had a couple of those camera tickets issued, but it doesn't seem to hinder her speeding.

I don't mind the cameras that much. Mainly because I've learned my lessons in speeding the hard way. Four times. I've also seen what happens when speeding goes bad. Despite that, isn't there a way they could be a little more regulated, i.e. times of enforcement?
 
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comanchepilot said:
Plead not guilty. when someone comes in to testify - object- if they were not there its hearsay...

Me: "Officer, tell me about your training."
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My state supreme court, in it's boundless wisdom, has determined that an officer of the law is a calibrated velocity measurement device. No foolin'.
 
steingar said:
My state supreme court, in it's boundless wisdom, has determined that an officer of the law is a calibrated velocity measurement device. No foolin'.
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Why am I not surprised. Judges receive money from the state and would not want anything to interfere with the increased revenue speeding tickets provide. In Wisconsin getting an attorney to fight a speeding ticket often improves outcome especially in the assignment of points so the judges are also insuring that their colleagues are well fed.
 
If you getting a speeding ticket in Wisconsin, you can try to plea for defective spedometer. Worked for my wife when she was going 40 in a 25. You might pay more of a fine (she didn't), but you don't get any points and it won't come up when your insurance company runs you for a new policy or renewal, which will hurt your pocketbook more than the ticket itself will. I got tagged by one when I lived in Oregon. Paid it because I was trying to beat the light and lost.
 
The FAA is doing the same thing. Initiating violation investigation purely on computer generated reports, i.e. your assigned altitude was FL350 and your actual altitude was briefly FL354. Doesn't matter if you're the only aircraft in that controller's airspace, doesn't matter if no loss of separation occurred, doesn't matter if the controller never even saw it. A computer alert goes off and sends the data to an Ops inspector near you.

ADSB is going to allow for a whole other level of oversight and computer generated violations.
 
CnBeta said:
The FAA is doing the same thing. Initiating violation investigation purely on computer generated reports, i.e. your assigned altitude was FL350 and your actual altitude was briefly FL354. Doesn't matter if you're the only aircraft in that controller's airspace, doesn't matter if no loss of separation occurred, doesn't matter if the controller never even saw it. A computer alert goes off and sends the data to an Ops inspector near you.

ADSB is going to allow for a whole other level of oversight and computer generated violations.
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I'm aware that the ATC computers now are flagging this stuff, and sending it out for data mining and QA purposes. I'm not aware of it being used for enforcement unless there's a loss of separation or it's part of an incident that would have led to enforcement anyway.

If you have some authoritative information to the contrary, i.e. you are personally aware of a case where a letter of investigation came out of one of these "robo-snitches", please share.
 
Bill S, this is excellent advice. The letter he got is NOT a ticket. There is no court involved. I am familiar with the letter he got as I have had two of them. The local police department, who sends out the letters, can not do squat, only a court can. In that particular town in TN. just toss it in the trash and move on.

It is a scam that many smaller TN. towns are participating in. The company that owns the cameras get $37.50 and the town gets $12.50 for each idiot that makes a donation. The scheme has been in the news several times in the last 2 years.

In fairness there are traffic cameras in many states that do result in tickets and must be answered in court. Those you should not ignore. This is not what the OP is dealing with.
 
ronnieh said:
Bill S, this is excellent advice. The letter he got is NOT a ticket. There is no court involved. I am familiar with the letter he got as I have had two of them. The local police department, who sends out the letters, can not do squat, only a court can. In that particular town in TN. just toss it in the trash and move on.

It is a scam that many smaller TN. towns are participating in. The company that owns the cameras get $37.50 and the town gets $12.50 for each idiot that makes a donation. The scheme has been in the news several times in the last 2 years.

In fairness there are traffic cameras in many states that do result in tickets and must be answered in court. Those you should not ignore. This is not what the OP is dealing with.
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I did not know that. All the Cams around here result in tickets, not "request for donations". :lol: If I ever get said request, it will be recycled.

I do notice a lot of "how to beat a ticket" comments in this thread. If I get a ticket and the court/officer doesn't accept my explanation, I pay it and move on. Playing gotcha with the law takes more of my time than I care to spend. If it was a bunch of BS and the penalty is high, I have an attorney who can handle it.

The last time I got a ticket it was for $500 for parking in a handicap zone without showing our handicap gizmo that I forgot to put on the dash. Went to court with the placard in my hand and before I could say anything, the Judge asked if I wanted to plead No Contest at least a couple of times while giving me a stern look. I did so plead and the ticket was dismissed.:wink2:

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
I do notice a lot of "how to beat a ticket" comments in this thread. If I get a ticket and the court/officer doesn't accept my explanation, I pay it and move on. Playing gotcha with the law takes more of my time than I care to spend. If it was a bunch of BS and the penalty is high, I have an attorney who can handle it.
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If you live in DC, be very, very careful with that policy.

This article from yesterday points out that drivers who live in DC but get certain kinds of speeding tickets in Virginia can end up with their licenses revoked. That's because the laws in DC are different from the laws in Virginia.

This is a quote from the directors of DC's DMV about the driver who was 11 MPH over in a 70 zone:
“Driving 81 miles per hour is dangerous, not only to the well-being of the driver, but also to those around him or her in that the ability to maintain control is reduced the higher the speed of travel,” she wrote.
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She upheld a 6 month revocation of the guy's driver license.

Guess it's a good thing she's not administrator in one of the western states...

Pay the fine & move on at your own risk.
 
wsuffa said:
If you live in DC, be very, very careful with that policy.

This article from yesterday points out that drivers who live in DC but get certain kinds of speeding tickets in Virginia can end up with their licenses revoked. That's because the laws in DC are different from the laws in Virginia.

This is a quote from the directors of DC's DMV about the driver who was 11 MPH over in a 70 zone:


She upheld a 6 month revocation of the guy's driver license.

Guess it's a good thing she's not administrator in one of the western states...

Pay the fine & move on at your own risk.
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That looks like a case for the Attorney.;)

Cheers
 
That VA thing is pretty serious. I'm glad I read that since I do a lot of commuting through VA.
 
TMetzinger said:
I'm aware that the ATC computers now are flagging this stuff, and sending it out for data mining and QA purposes. I'm not aware of it being used for enforcement unless there's a loss of separation or it's part of an incident that would have led to enforcement anyway.

If you have some authoritative information to the contrary, i.e. you are personally aware of a case where a letter of investigation came out of one of these "robo-snitches", please share.
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Yes, I know of an case that was investigated due to the "robo snitch" where no LOS or incident occurred. It was purely just a 91.123(a)(b) violation on the crew.

This particular case, the crew had the fortune of having their own CVR recordings to present to the investigators. The transmission from the center was clear and distinct "fly heading 360" the crew's own CVR had the reception with the first part came in static and garbled "*unreadable* 360" is all the crew heard. The crew then responded back with "descend and maintain FL360". To which the controller never objected, never corrected them, never even noticed the discrepancy.

6 weeks later the PIC got a letter in the mail with a notice of potential 91.123 violation. No loss of separation, no incident or accident resulted in the mis communication. Regardless of the crew's own evidence, they were still found at fault and had a letter of violation added to their names.

Pretty ****ed up huh?
 
Hey Geezer - how do you plead no contest - and get a dismissal? Thats not how the system works - he could have found you guilty and fined you - even with the sticker in hand - it should have been -

"You honor - I am not guilty of the offense - and here is the placard and proof that it was issued to me in this vehicle on this date." Why would you even SAY something like "I forgot to put it in the window?" That makes you GUILTY because the issue is parking in a handicap space without displaying a placard" Not parking because you forgot to put it in the window.

If you show proof the placard was issued for this vehicle or to your person and you got the citation - case dismssed- If you open your bug mouth - anything can happen.

Geesh - you have the right to remain silent - USE IT.
 
comanchepilot said:
Hey Geezer - how do you plead no contest - and get a dismissal? Thats not how the system works - he could have found you guilty and fined you - even with the sticker in hand - it should have been -

"You honor - I am not guilty of the offense - and here is the placard and proof that it was issued to me in this vehicle on this date." Why would you even SAY something like "I forgot to put it in the window?" That makes you GUILTY because the issue is parking in a handicap space without displaying a placard" Not parking because you forgot to put it in the window.

If you show proof the placard was issued for this vehicle or to your person and you got the citation - case dismssed- If you open your bug mouth - anything can happen.

Geesh - you have the right to remain silent - USE IT.
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I did remian silent for all the reasons you stated. I wasn't born yesterday by any stretch. I am only reporting what happened. As I said in my post, I didn't say anything except when the Judge "suggested" I plead No Contest, I said "No Contest" and he dismissed the case and I hot footed it out of there.

For all the Judge knew based on what happened in court I could have found the placard in the trash can outside the courtroom. I just had it in my hand and said two words, no contest with the result no fine, no nothing.

Cheers
 
CnBeta said:
Yes, I know of an case that was investigated due to the "robo snitch" where no LOS or incident occurred. It was purely just a 91.123(a)(b) violation on the crew.

This particular case, the crew had the fortune of having their own CVR recordings to present to the investigators. The transmission from the center was clear and distinct "fly heading 360" the crew's own CVR had the reception with the first part came in static and garbled "*unreadable* 360" is all the crew heard. The crew then responded back with "descend and maintain FL360". To which the controller never objected, never corrected them, never even noticed the discrepancy.

6 weeks later the PIC got a letter in the mail with a notice of potential 91.123 violation. No loss of separation, no incident or accident resulted in the mis communication. Regardless of the crew's own evidence, they were still found at fault and had a letter of violation added to their names.

Pretty ****ed up huh?
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Did they get a penalty besides the finding in their file?
 
They got a picture of you breaking the law?
Send them a picture of a check.
 
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