Spatial Disorientation and trusting your instruments

Did JFK lose control? I thought he descended into the water under control, like a CFIT accident?

But previous point well made - I remeber a "VFR" flight over water, haze, daylight, no horizon. Took me a few minutes to decide that, hey, I need to be on the gauges fir a bit, at least until the shoreline comes into view.
 
Did JFK lose control? I thought he descended into the water under control, like a CFIT accident?

But previous point well made - I remeber a "VFR" flight over water, haze, daylight, no horizon. Took me a few minutes to decide that, hey, I need to be on the gauges fir a bit, at least until the shoreline comes into view.

The rule I've developed is as soon as I'm straining for a horizon, it's time to go on instruments. The central east coast can get really bad and still be called VFR.
 
Actually he had over 300 hours, including some unspecified number of hours with a CFII toward his instrument rating. There's been a lot of speculation about why he succumbed to spatial d, including that possibly he didn't realize that he was in instrument conditions and tried to fly visually as he got closer to MVY even though he was adequately capable to fly without visual reference. Recognizing when conditions are so marginal that you need to be on the gauges is something that a lot of CFIs don't teach.

I'd also be very leery of jumping to the conclusion that he would have survived if he'd finished his IR. Spatial D happens to a lot of instrument rated pilots too, sometimes with fatal consequences.
I would also be leery of jumping to the conclusion that this happened to him because he was rich and famous which somehow made him incompetant. I've heard that theory before. I'm not accusing Azure of this even though I quoted her post. I agree with her. He was one of us. He was flying an airplane appropriate for his experience and got in over his head. It could happen to many of us here.
 
Did JFK lose control? I thought he descended into the water under control, like a CFIT accident?

But previous point well made - I remeber a "VFR" flight over water, haze, daylight, no horizon. Took me a few minutes to decide that, hey, I need to be on the gauges fir a bit, at least until the shoreline comes into view.

If you read the accident report and listened to the instructor who taught him , you'd know that JFK jr. asked the instructor to accompany him on this flight but the instructor was busy. The instructor then said that he advised JFK jr. Not to attempt this flight without him but he decided to go without the instructor. They left much later than planned and at the time of the crash it was getting dark in heavy haze. According to the report, they hit the water at tremendous speed, not under control at all. He was in way over his head.
 
Did JFK lose control? I thought he descended into the water under control, like a CFIT accident?
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He lost track of where the horizon was relative to his plane. The plane entered a high speed spiral, which incidentally is what inevitably happens if a trimmed up plane is left to its own devices.

Is that CFIT? I don't think so. Is that loss of control? I guess so. It is spatial disorientation that may not have been realized until it was too late.

Was he in way over his head? No, he was capable of identifying and avoiding the accident. He just didn't.

It always struck me as one of those situations that if survived, makes one a better pilot. I wish he had that chance.
 
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He lost track of where the horizon was relative to his plane. The plane entered a high speed spiral, which incidentally is what inevitably happens if a trimmed up plane is left to its own devices.

Is that CFIT? I don't think so. Is that loss of control? I guess so. It is spatial disorientation that may not have been realized until it was too late.

Was he in way over his head? No, he was capable of identifying and avoiding the accident. He just didn't.

It always struck me as one of those situations that if survived, makes one a better pilot. I wish he had that chance.

Aka graveyard spiral. Killed a lot of pilots over the years, one of the reasons VFR into IMC is discouraged and dual vacuum pumps are required for new designs.
 
I got the spins yesterday under the hood. I was doing some practice approaches was getting vectored far out because of an IFR arrival, so I did some slow flight to not get to far away. I got a turn to intercept so I acclerated and turn 180 degrees picking up the flaps at the same time. I leveled off and I just wanted to keep turning, only lasted about 10 seconds but it can and will happen, just be read for it when it does.
 
Aka graveyard spiral. Killed a lot of pilots over the years, one of the reasons VFR into IMC is discouraged and dual vacuum pumps are required for new designs.
Yep, though JFK Jr's accident occurred in tricky night time VMC (I think Canada and other countries have more stringent regs for night).

FWIW, I don't have any vac pumps... I'm all electric. I think that's an option now.

Anyway the NTSB's description of the accident is about as good as it gets relative to what spatial disorientation looks like in real life:
The noninstrument-rated pilot obtained weather forecasts for a cross-country flight, which indicated visual flight rules (VFR) conditions with clear skies and visibilities that varied between 4 to 10 miles along his intended route. The pilot then departed on a dark night. According to a performance study of radar data, the airplane proceeded over land at 5,500 feet. About 34 miles west of Martha's Vineyard Airport, while crossing a 30-mile stretch of water to its destination, the airplane began a descent that varied between 400 to 800 feet per minute (fpm). About 7 miles from the approaching shore, the airplane began a right turn. The airplane stopped its descent at 2,200 feet, then climbed back to 2,600 feet and entered a left turn. While in the left turn, the airplane began another descent that reached about 900 fpm. While still in the descent, the airplane entered a right turn. During this turn, the airplane's rate of descent and airspeed increased. The airplane's rate of descent eventually exceeded 4,700 fpm, and the airplane struck the water in a nose-down attitude. Airports along the coast reported visibilities between 5 and 8 miles. Other pilots flying similar routes on the night of the accident reported no visual horizon while flying over the water because of haze. The pilot's estimated total flight experience was about 310 hours, of which 55 hours were at night. The pilot's estimated flight time in the accident airplane was about 36 hours, of which about 9.4 hours were at night. About 3 hours of that time was without a certified flight instructor (CFI) on board, and about 0.8 hour of that was flown at night and included a night landing. In the 15 months before the accident, the pilot had flown either to or from the destination area about 35 times. The pilot flew at least 17 of these flight legs without a CFI on board, of which 5 were at night. Within 100 days before the accident, the pilot had completed about 50 percent of a formal instrument training course. A Federal Aviation Administration Advisory Circular (AC) 61-27C, "Instrument Flying: Coping with Illusions in Flight," states that illusions or false impressions occur when information provided by sensory organs is misinterpreted or inadequate and that many illusions in flight could be caused by complex motions and certain visual scenes encountered under adverse weather conditions and at night. The AC also states that some illusions might lead to spatial disorientation or the inability to determine accurately the attitude or motion of the aircraft in relation to the earth's surface. The AC further states that spatial disorientation, as a result of continued VFR flight into adverse weather conditions, is regularly near the top of the cause/factor list in annual statistics on fatal aircraft accidents. According to AC 60-4A, "Pilot's Spatial Disorientation," tests conducted with qualified instrument pilots indicated that it can take as long as 35 seconds to establish full control by instruments after a loss of visual reference of the earth's surface. AC 60-4A further states that surface references and the natural horizon may become obscured even though visibility may be above VFR minimums and that an inability to perceive the natural horizon or surface references is common during flights over water, at night, in sparsely populated areas, and in low-visibility conditions.​
 
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Here is the "Partial Panel" testing performed in flight with an Archer and a Bo' that I had referenced earlier. It also mentions some earlier sim training in a 172 and a Saratoga. It's all pre glass panel.

http://www.mastery-flight-training.com/faa_partial_panel_performan.pdf

Glider guiders might appreciate that the data collection platform was built around a Cambridge Aero GPS Navigator and Flight Recorder. That is, glider equipment!
Trivia Bonus Question: Anyone recall why the gliding community had the most sophisticated GPS systems when GPS technology first appeared?
 
Trust me it is very real and extremely dangerous. A story.

Years ago I was living and flying in a Cherokee 180 with basic instruments in the SFO Bay Area. I was out practicing approaches with Bay Approach at the time. It was 800 overcast tops around 3500-4000'. I had flown two approach's into HWD and an approach into OAK already the scenario was simple...go missed...climb and get vectors in the soup and pop out for a brief moment and then back into the soup for another approach.

I was on my 4 approach flying the ILS into OAK. I was in the clear descending into the soup on a SW heading that would eventually take me to the OAK ILS over some hills which were about 1500' and on a heading that would eventually cross the ILS approaches into SFO during a busy time of the afternoon.

I was comfortable and enjoying the rides when all of a sudden all hell broke loose. All I was able to do was put a death grip on the yoke, stare at the AI and use EVERY piece of my being to remain shiny side up. ATC called me and told me to descend and turn to the W for intercept. I was unable. He called back I told him unable. He asked me if all was ok I told him no. Simple conversation here. Finally he realized I was in deep ***** and that I was about to head across the SFO glideslope he talked me calmly into moving my eyes and slowly turning by telling me when to turn and when to stop. Ultimately he got me on the glideslope for OAK and I slowly snapped out of the trance I was in. I descended and became VFR. Cancelled and then flew across the bay VFR to SQL and landed.

Nothing made sense. All of the instruments were talking junk to me I fixated on the AI which was not good. Had it died I would have rolled over with it. Yes...spatial disorientation is a serious problem. If you have not experienced it find a CFI and get under the hood. Night would be best no horizon. Once under the hood give him the plane and move your head all over the place and just screw up your senses. Then let him hand it back to you and see what a mess it can be. Never take anything for granted. Learn to ignore the problem and scan like your life depends on it because it will one day.
 
Vertigo is a pleasurable experience.

Sit back, enjoy.

Fly instruments!!!

The harder you try to fight vertigo, the worse it gets.
 
You should see what the later model DF's are like.

On a strong signal, they are incredibly easy. But not so great on a weak or distorted signal (I got my butt handed to me recently on an exercise as MO when the ***hole running it hid a beacon underneath a high-voltage transmission line).

We still have to grid the DeLormes, and it's good practice to grid the local sectional -- it only takes an hour or so and they last forever as backup. Foreflight and FltPlan Go have the grids, but it's real bad juju to call off a search 'cause your battery died, or to blow your night vision 'cause the iPad blasts light in your face.

The Becker DFs were just being deployed when I went inactive.

But that guy wasn't necessarily an ******* for putting the ELT under power lines. That search scenario with an ELT under power lines is based on the largest single-mission save in CAP history, the 1978 rescue of 20 of 22 passengers from the crash of a Rocky Mountain Airways DHC Twin Otter near Hayden, CO. It crashed under high power lines (see the pic) like that and it played hell with the ELT signal. The story would be worthy of a movie, truly. It's worth a read for anyone.

I wish I could have found the story that Ed O'Brien wrote (our fantastic Historian in CO-162, Black Sheep Senior Squadron at the time) about this in 2008. He did most of the interviews and leg work involved with putting the story together for the 30th anniversary of the crash. His story included details of the search and was intended for an aviation or CAP audience.

His story dealt with how they followed the signal up and down the valley, finally got reports of a brief power outage and flash and figured out a likely location of the crash, how the ground team had to break into a ranger station to set up a base of operations, how they found the Sno-Cat, worked their way up the mountain, etc.

The one in CAPVolunteer below is 2nd best only because it is shorter - by Scott Orr. But he got PAO of the year for that piece.

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_11848192and
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_11844780

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/media/cms/Volunteer_NovDec_Final_LR_3581913B94681.pdf

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR7906.pdf


 
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