Sort of missing log books

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182driver

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182driver
I am in the middle of a very detailed pre-buy inspection of a 1976 182P. The plane looks good, but it has missing log books – sort of. There are laminated copies of ALL of the logs from day 1, but the actual original logs are missing.Is that a factor, given that the copies of the log books are complete?

I chatted with the previous owner who spoke highly of the plane.My mechanic spoke with the owner before that – an IA who bought the plane for his son who also spoke highly of the airplane.

What’s everybody think?
 
182driver said:
I am in the middle of a very detailed pre-buy inspection of a 1976 182P. The plane looks good, but it has missing log books – sort of. There are laminated copies of ALL of the logs from day 1, but the actual original logs are missing.Is that a factor, given that the copies of the log books are complete?

I chatted with the previous owner who spoke highly of the plane.My mechanic spoke with the owner before that – an IA who bought the plane for his son who also spoke highly of the airplane.

What’s everybody think?
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Hmmmm...


The originals have to be somewhere...:confused:
 
182driver said:
I am in the middle of a very detailed pre-buy inspection of a 1976 182P. The plane looks good, but it has missing log books – sort of. There are laminated copies of ALL of the logs from day 1, but the actual original logs are missing.Is that a factor, given that the copies of the log books are complete?

I chatted with the previous owner who spoke highly of the plane.My mechanic spoke with the owner before that – an IA who bought the plane for his son who also spoke highly of the airplane.

What’s everybody think?
Click to expand...

If you have copies of all the logs, I don't see a problem here. :dunno:
 
If you have any kind of photo copy - where did those copies come from? Weird. If the plane checks out well this would not be an issue at all for me.
 
RotorAndWing said:
If you have copies of all the logs, I don't see a problem here. :dunno:
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Concur. Maybe those were the duplicates for the originals which were lost/destroyed. Or are you saying everything up to today is a copy? That would be a bit odd, unless the seller is holding back the originals so they don't get lost or destroyed.
 
Thanks for the input everybody.

I think the current owner did not realize that he has copies and not originals.

I did talk to the previous owner who knew about the logs when he bought the plane a while ago. He had excellent reasons for buying and for selling and he seems like a really top notch guy. I'd previously found lots of information about him on the web and talking to him just convinced me that what I read was true.

The owner before that was the IA who copied the logs because they were in such bad shape, but he doesn't seem to really remember if he copied the originals or a copy - that was 5 or 6 years ago and it was too many years and too many planes ago. According to the IA, the owner before that was "just a pilot" who probably knew that logs existed, but not much more. I can only conjecture on what happened to the originals.

I have the actual originals from 1999 on but copies of the logs before that. I have the FAA CD also, and everything seems to line up with them. Since 1999, the plane got new radios, new paint, and new engine (now past TBO) so all the really major stuff is covered. It is going to get a new or rebuilt engine pretty soon, if I proceed with the purchase.

I'm not at all worried about the condition of the plane. My mechanic did a full annual on it instead of the customary pre-purchase inspection. I am no more or less worried about if I am getting a "good deal" than I was before this issue cropped up. I just don't want to take a bath if I end up having to sell. (My current plan is to NEVER sell the plane, having regretted selling my old plane for a year and half now. But stuff can happen.)

I can tell you that the term "copies of the originals" is rather ambiguous in this situation! That could mean "originals" or it could mean "copies." In this case, it appears to mean the latter.
 
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As long as the owner can attest ,to the logs,shouldn't be a big problem.
 
It's not that unusual to have missing log books on an older plane, especially the older the more likely. I have a missing log book on my '46 Champ, sometimes that's the way it is, it's not the end of the world.
 
RotorAndWing said:
If you have copies of all the logs, I don't see a problem here. :dunno:
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Agree

That's what we make copies for, heck maybe the guy made copies incase the log was lost, and perhaps that's what happened.

Ether way, if he's got copies Id say its a non event, especially with a old log book
 
182driver said:
I have the actual originals from 1999 on but copies of the logs before that.
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Sounds like someone wisely made copies of all the logs just in case something happened to the originals, and in 1999, something did happen to them. I see no issue at all with that situation, and I suggest that you make copies of all the logs (including copies of the pre-1999 copies) once you buy the plane and keep those copies in a safe place separate from the primaries just in case something happens to the primaries in the future.
 
champ driver said:
It's not that unusual to have missing log books on an older plane, especially the older the more likely. I have a missing log book on my '46 Champ, sometimes that's the way it is, it's not the end of the world.
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In this case, from a practical standpoint, there are no missing logs. The OP has either originals or copies of the originals all the way from the factory to the present date, and so has a full record of all maintenance since manufacture.
 
Everyone gets so worked up over "missing logs" as if aa annual sign off in 1955 makes a hill of beans today. While complete records from day one makes potential buyers happy, from a legal standpoint it's over kill (14 CFR Part 91.417)

I had a Hughes 269 that had the first 20 years of logs missing. The helicopter had been rolled over, all time components replaced or overhauled (data cards for everything), all AD's and SB's complied with and historical 337's copied. Yet when I went to sell it some of the tire kickers went bananas that it had "missing logs" and it "wasn't airworthy".

Copies are fine. With today's technology of digital cameras and scanners, take some time and copy your logs.
 
Write it up the way you've told it here and have it notarized. If possible, get written statements from the others in the chain of records.
 
After scanning the logs, why not go one step further and upload them to Dropbox or copy them to an SD card kept in the glove box. That way, if repairs are unexpectedly needed away from home, the shop would have access to the logs.
 
I have the actual originals from 1999 on but copies of the logs before that.
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Stuff that happened over fifteen years ago isn't all that relevant. But if you have copies, what's the issue?
 
I'm not worried about the FAA on this, just the market value if I had to sell. It sounds like most people would not refuse to buy the plane under these circumstances nor would they expect to pay less because of the situation with the logs.
 
182driver said:
I'm not worried about the FAA on this, just the market value if I had to sell. It sounds like most people would not refuse to buy the plane under these circumstances nor would they expect to pay less because of the situation with the logs.
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If the logs were actually missing, it may or may not effect the price (depends on the airplane and what period is missing).

In the case you've described, I don't think it matters.
 
After getting lots of opinions from here and even from 3 aircraft appraisers who are friends of friends, I bought the plane. Most people thought that only having copies of the logs is no issue, but a few did say it would be harder to sell - pretty much what Fearless Tower said. One of the appraisers did say that he personally would not buy the plane because he has seen too much fraud in the industry (what a shame) but he did say that most of the market would probably be OK with it. Thanks for all the help, everybody!
 
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