Sorry, Compensation or Hire again

[tonycondon]

Ok, got an email from a glider club member today. She is in the local Humane Society. It seems they got 6 dogs that were missing owners after Hurricane Katrina. 4 have been given new homes so far. And the exciting thing for them is they have located one of the dogs' owners in Tyler Texas. She posed an email to several of us power pilots offering to cover the expense of the trip from Ames to Tyler and back if we could deliver the pooch. She would accompany to keep dog company, etc. I should probably know the answers to these questions already, and get to confused if I try to look them up in the regs, but I know lots of you guys have been over this alot. So can I, even as a Commercial Pilot, fly the dog to tyler, with Shelley minding the dog, and have the trip be paid for? Of course, I really want to do it, but cant afford to even split the cost. Looking forward to responses, thanks.

 

[gismo]

Ok, got an email from a glider club member today. She is in the local Humane Society. It seems they got 6 dogs that were missing owners after Hurricane Katrina. 4 have been given new homes so far. And the exciting thing for them is they have located one of the dogs' owners in Tyler Texas. She posed an email to several of us power pilots offering to cover the expense of the trip from Ames to Tyler and back if we could deliver the pooch. She would accompany to keep dog company, etc. I should probably know the answers to these questions already, and get to confused if I try to look them up in the regs, but I know lots of you guys have been over this alot. So can I, even as a Commercial Pilot, fly the dog to tyler, with Shelley minding the dog, and have the trip be paid for? Of course, I really want to do it, but cant afford to even split the cost. Looking forward to responses, thanks.

I think the only way this could work outside part 135 is if she were able to procure an airplane from someone other than the FBO you teach at and asked you to fly it. IOW, if she knew someone with an airplane that was willing to let you fly it, she could pay him for the plane costs.

 

[tonycondon]

Well I dont technically work for the FBO in Ames anymore, but in order to get the plane, I would have to sign the rental agreement, pretty much making it so I am renting the plane but she is paying the costs. Does that make a difference?

 

[Ed Guthrie]

I think the only way this could work outside part 135 is if she were able to procure an airplane from someone other than the FBO you teach at and asked you to fly it. IOW, if she knew someone with an airplane that was willing to let you fly it, she could pay him for the plane costs.

That is indeed the only way this would be legal. Furthermore, the FAA has tripped a few commercial pilots when the FAA showed a link between the FBO and the pilot--something as simple as who paid for the aircraft checkout flight.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

... I would have to sign the rental agreement, pretty much making it so I am renting the plane but she is paying the costs. Does that make a difference?

Yes, it makes a difference--it provides proof for the FAA that the flight is a faux Part 135 operation.

 

[tonycondon]

what I was afraid of Ed, thanks. So I just have to find her a friend with an airplane, eh?

 

[mgkdrgn]

Isn't there a way that animals can be shipped that would be less expensive than a RT GA trip from IA to TX?

Ok, got an email from a glider club member today. She is in the local Humane Society. It seems they got 6 dogs that were missing owners after Hurricane Katrina. 4 have been given new homes so far. And the exciting thing for them is they have located one of the dogs' owners in Tyler Texas. She posed an email to several of us power pilots offering to cover the expense of the trip from Ames to Tyler and back if we could deliver the pooch. She would accompany to keep dog company, etc. I should probably know the answers to these questions already, and get to confused if I try to look them up in the regs, but I know lots of you guys have been over this alot. So can I, even as a Commercial Pilot, fly the dog to tyler, with Shelley minding the dog, and have the trip be paid for? Of course, I really want to do it, but cant afford to even split the cost. Looking forward to responses, thanks.

 

[tonycondon]

I would think so Brett. I kinda suspect that once she finds out how much this would end up costing, she will look into alternatives.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Close as I can figure, in a Cherokee or similar you're talking $600 or so, just for the fuel. You gotta be able to ship a dog for that kinda coin.

I would think so Brett. I kinda suspect that once she finds out how much this would end up costing, she will look into alternatives.

 

[TMetzinger]

dogs can go unaccompanied as freight in most airliners, I believe.

In order for this to be a flight that would not be treated as 135, the humane society must be the operator (the owner or renter of the airplane) and the pilot must either be a commercial pilot hired by the humane society or a private pilot who is already an employee/volunteer/affiliate.

So... The humane society organization can rent an airplane, or reimburse an employee pilot (private or higher) who rents an airplane, or who flies his own airplane in furtherance of the humane society business.

Or... they can rent an airplane in their name, and hire a commercial pilot to fly it for them - insurance and liability for the flight needs to be arranged in the name of the humane society.

Finally, if someone (not an employee) is ALREADY making the trip in question, he can take the dog and handler along, share expenses with the handler, assuming (and this is the gotcha), that he has a preexisting relationship with the handler or the society - that keeps it as "private carriage" instead of "public carriage".

 

[tonycondon]

Seems the only way that this will work is if the Humane Society can find a local airplane owner willing to let us take his plane. Or if someone steps up willing to foot the bill. Also, the cost is probably going to be more than they anticipate, so the whole point is likely moot. Thanks all!

 

[Richard]

This whole thing stinks. If I were to deliver a car from A to B and have someone else pay for the whole shebang I don't need a comm lic or a op cert. If I want to drive my church's schoolbus I need a Comm lic because that's the type of vehicle it is.

But if I want to fly my plane on a humanitarian flight I have to pay pro rata to stay legal.

 

[tonycondon]

well, buddy holly didnt die in a car wreck, and it shows.

 

[TMetzinger]

This whole thing stinks. If I were to deliver a car from A to B and have someone else pay for the whole shebang I don't need a comm lic or a op cert. If I want to drive my church's schoolbus I need a Comm lic because that's the type of vehicle it is.

But if I want to fly my plane on a humanitarian flight I have to pay pro rata to stay legal.

No, you don't - a flight for a charitable organization is an exception to the requirement for a commercial certificate. That's what allows Young Eagles and Angel Flight to work. I dont' THINK the Humane Society meets the rules, but I could be wrong.

For instance, I can rent an airplane, fly and angel flight, and write off the rental cost as a charitable contribution. I can also rent a plane, fly an angel flight, and my company can reimburse me and THEY can write it off as a charitable contribution - but I can't deduct anything in that case.

IF the Humane Society is willing to open an account with an FBO, designate an employee or associate as a pilot for that account, and get billed (or pay in advance for the rental), then the humane society is the operator, and if the pilot is associated with the society, he can fly the airplane and a commercial certificate is not required. Or they can hire any commercial pilot (except one associated with the FBO) to fly "their" airplane.

 

[TMetzinger]

Well I dont technically work for the FBO in Ames anymore, but in order to get the plane, I would have to sign the rental agreement, pretty much making it so I am renting the plane but she is paying the costs. Does that make a difference?

Now that I think about it - if they hire you as their pilot and THEY acquire the plane (by renting)separately, not through you, I think you'd be OK.

They need to set up an account in THEIR name, and you would be one of the pilots authorized to fly under that account. They would sign the rental agreement in terms of liability etc - your only participation is showing that you meet the minimums in terms of certificates and aero experience. And the beauty is that as a commercial pilot, not only can they pay for the plane, they can pay you for your time. When I flew for a company I worked for in the past, that's how we did it - I paid for e the rental in the name of the company with a company credit card.

I am pretty sure my FBO still does this for a couple organizations that have pilot employees - the organization pays the bill for the airplane and is the "renter", and the pilot is just someone from the organization qualified to fly the airplane. As long as the business of the company isn't air transport, they can use airplanes whether they buy, lease, or rent them.

 

[Richard]

Tim points out a distinction I didn't mention: a charitable organization. But lacking a charitable org, a flight to reunite the owner and dog who were separated due to natural catastrophe, why should that be Pt 135? It's rhetorical, don't bother answering.

 

[TMetzinger]

Bottom line, if it's "public" carriage, an air operator certificate (121/135/ etc) is required.

If it's "private" carriage, no air operator cert is required, but depending on the relationship between the operator and the pilot, a commercial certificate may be required.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, you don't - a flight for a charitable organization is an exception to the requirement for a commercial certificate. That's what allows Young Eagles and Angel Flight to work. I dont' THINK the Humane Society meets the rules, but I could be wrong.

For instance, I can rent an airplane, fly and angel flight, and write off the rental cost as a charitable contribution.

True, because nobody is paying for transportation -- you're just donating it to the charitible organization.

I can also rent a plane, fly an angel flight, and my company can reimburse me and THEY can write it off as a charitable contribution - but I can't deduct anything in that case.

That's a bit shakier. I'm not sure you can accept the free flying time in this case, as that would be something of value in exchange for providing a pilot service. Clearly your flight would not be incidental to your employment in this case, as you'd have no reason to be there other than to fly the plane. I'd ask the FAA Counsel about this one -- it's not a scenario I've seen before.

IF the Humane Society is willing to open an account with an FBO, designate an employee or associate as a pilot for that account, and get billed (or pay in advance for the rental), then the humane society is the operator, and if the pilot is associated with the society, he can fly the airplane and a commercial certificate is not required.

Not so. That pilot would be providing something of value in exchange for free flying time, and that compensation for pilot services makes a Commercial or higher necessary. The exception would be the "incidental to the job" clause, but that would work only if the employee would have to be wherever the dog was going for some reason other than transporting the dog.

Or they can hire any commercial pilot (except one associated with the FBO) to fly "their" airplane.

Correct.

 

[poadeleted20]

Now that I think about it - if they hire you as their pilot and THEY acquire the plane (by renting)separately, not through you, I think you'd be OK.

The FAA won't buy that. One of the things they look for is a prior relationship between the pilot and the aircraft provider. The fact that he's one of their instructors will bring out the duck.

 

[TMetzinger]

He said he wasn't one of the instructors anymore. I agree that if he has any financial relationship with the FBO this won't work. But if it's been a while since he worked for them it should be OK.

 

[tonycondon]

Thanks for the responses on this one guys. I sent her an email, explained as simply as I could the reasons for part 135 and how it would affect this flight. Laid out the scenario in which it would be OK, also mentioned the likely high cost and it looks like she is finding different avenues to finish the job.

 

[gprellwitz]

Probably for the best that she's finding other avenues.

Regarding the "something of value" including flight time, what is the reasoning if the time isn't logged except for our "how many states" type contests? In what way is it of value to me to spend my time doing a favor for someone, other than to feel good about myself? And if that is the definition of "value", then ALL flights qualify!

I certainly understand the governments desire to make sure that those using a pilots' services understand the ramifications, but at times it seems to go a little overboard, and some understanding of their motiviations may help in complying.

 

[Richard]

Probably for the best that she's finding other avenues.

Regarding the "something of value" including flight time, what is the reasoning if the time isn't logged except for our "how many states" type contests? In what way is it of value to me to spend my time doing a favor for someone, other than to feel good about myself? And if that is the definition of "value", then ALL flights qualify!

I certainly understand the governments desire to make sure that those using a pilots' services understand the ramifications, but at times it seems to go a little overboard, and some understanding of their motiviations may help in complying.

And if all regs and rules are the result of someone's past screwup, I'd sure like to know what screwup caused this absurdity to make it onto the books.

 

[poadeleted20]

Regarding the "something of value" including flight time, what is the reasoning if the time isn't logged

The FAA Counsel has said in the Lincoln opinion that if the time isn't logged, you haven't received anything of value. However...

In what way is it of value to me to spend my time doing a favor for someone, other than to feel good about myself? And if that is the definition of "value", then ALL flights qualify!

...the NTSB has found in Administrator v. Murray that if there is a business relationship between the parties, the creation of "good will" (a recognized asset in the business world) can qualify as compensation.