Some sympathy

[swamppilot]

I poked a little fun at teller in his post about the aborted landing with a little thread creep about the phrase "any traffic please advise." Before I get into the gist of this post, I would like to say that teller did a good job and in my opinion were not at all at any fault in the event.

Now, I would like to also say that the phrase came about as a natural evolution. Years ago, when you called UNICOM (which now also functions as a CTAF) there was someone to answer you. Either a CFI, the FBO owner or the receptionist, who in those days had some instructio in how to answer calls, would give winds and any known traffic. Then came downsizing. There are no spare flight instructors, and if there is a receptionist they have never picked up a mike.

Anyway, most people today make position reports in the blind by saying XXX traffic wer're ten miles out and will be landing (or words to the effect. Now in a 182 there is no big problem if no one answers because you can land on almost any runway and if traffic pops up you can maneuver much more easily.

The big iron folks, however, need to plan ahead and they are inbound at a much higher rate of speed. Their desire (need) to know what is going on at the airport is much greater. Hence, the phrase "XXX UNICOM we're 10 miles out, airport advisories please," evolved into "XXX traffic we're 10 miles out any traffic please advise."

It makes them sound like they're too arrogrant to use normal traffic calls and listen to others making traffic calls to put together the traffic picture. Now the young pilots flying today weren't around for the original phrase, but they learned from the folks who were the phrase "any traffic please advise" caught on and has been passed down.

I don't use it myself, and like many others, find it annoying, but I do understand from whence it came. So I try and have a little understanding for the big iron folks who do use it. The light pklane pilots, however, don't get any sympathy.

 

[ScottM]

I have nothing new to write on this topic. Well other than to tweak Teller a little

Here it is, already said and prepackaged for your consumption

There IS one non-standard radio call that I do have a problem with. Imagine that you're sitting in the pattern with another aircraft, an inbound or outbound transitioning through every few minutes. On your radio you hear the guy call out, "Saratoga 873 Whiskey Mike, inbound from the north. Any traffic in the area please advise."

Any traffic please advise. Nothing is more sure to raise the ire of the radio purists than that phrase. And although not with their fervency, I do agree with them. Turns out the FAA agress with them, too.

One of the changes that has appeared in the 2007 AIM is in section 4-1-9(g).
Allow me to quote it for you:

"Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF . . . Pilots stating 'Traffic in the area please advise' is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."

Although they need to work on their grammar a little, their message is clear. The habit of using this call has become a big enough problem that the FAA felt it needed to address it.

Asking traffic already in the airport area to advise YOU of their positions is totally backwards. The system works when each pilot volunteers that information. Inbound pilots need to LISTEN on the traffic frequency well before they enter the area. If they do that, they won't need to be advised of anything. They'll already know it.

http://www.faa-ground-school.com/library/Any-Traffic-Please-Advise.htm

As we saw in Tellers post they did use it, it meant nothing, may have slightly led to them assuming that th Cessna had heard them and potentially caused a small delay in decision making. But the truth was the Cessna was not even on the correct frequency so he would not have heard any call. A better assumption to make when talking into the radio is that there are NORDOs and numskulls out there so be vigilant.

 

[EdFred]

I vote for public flogging!

 

[rottydaddy]

I understand why people use "ATPA", but I still see no need for it, no matter what you're flying. When you report your position and intentions, it is implied that traffic will advise you, at the very least by making their own reports.

I've heard "ATPA" called out numerous times, and never heard anybody respond specifically to that query. although I've been tempted to say "well... buy low, sell high... and never bite a married woman on the thigh..."


And in the case of teller's little misadventure, it wouldn't have done any damn good, as the Cessna was on the wrong frequency.

 

[ScottM]

I understand why people use "ATPA", but I still see no need for it, no matter what you're flying. When you report your position and intentions, it is implied that traffic will advise you, at the very least by making their own reports.

I've heard "ATPA" called out numerous times, and never heard anybody respond specifically to that query. although I've been tempted to say "well... buy low, sell high... and never bit a married woman on the thigh..."


And in the case of teller's little misadventure, it wouldn't have done any damn good, as the Cessna was on the wrong frequency.

I have been tempted a few times to say 'this advises that you get a new copy of the AIM and read section 4-1-9(g)(1)'

 

[Teller1900]

While I appreciate the offer of clemency for my abhorrent misuse of the radio I must admit, in the interest of full disclosure, that phrase became part of my lexicon long ago. I don't know where or from whom I first heard it, but I started using it during my PPL training and it just kind of stuck. I think the same goes for a lot of people who use it...it was ingrained early on in training and remains a subconscious part of their callup. I never even thought about the fact that I said (and never gave much credence to any deeper meaning) until y'all so kindly pointed out the error of my ways. Only after the discussion of the phrase started on here did I even realize that I was saying it. I'm trying to stop, now, though; I promise! Do they have support groups for this kind of thing?

 

[ScottM]

Do they have support groups for this kind of thing?

PoA is one, but be aware of EdFred, he uses a relay tough love approach

 

[mikea]

The worst I heard was a pro who ended every call - and there were at least 4 over about 5 minutes - with a bored/monotone "Anytrafficintheareaortafficpatternpleaseadvise."" First of all, the guy had 5 minutes to hear any traffic making reports.

Besides advising to read the AIM I was tempted to advise that the air to air missles were inbound and homing on the next call he makes with that phrase.

 

[SkyHog]

When did PoA become AOPA's forums?

 

[EdFred]

While I appreciate the offer of clemency for my abhorrent misuse of the radio I must admit, in the interest of full disclosure, that phrase became part of my lexicon long ago.

Slavery was around for a long time too. Doesn't make it ok.

 

[EdFred]

When did PoA become AOPA's forums?

Shut up and get back to whoarfing you bloated sack of protoplasm!!!!

/Ren Hoek

 

[wsuffa]

Shut up and get back to whoarfing you bloated sack of protoplasm!!!!

/Ren Hoek

Non aviation. Closed.

 

[ScottM]

Non aviation. Closed.

Clare, Frank, Claire, Frank, Moderator 2 or 3, Claire, Frank, Blue, Claire, Purple, Frank, Bicycle, etc.

I think I just summarized every thread on the red board

 

[kevin47881]

Clare, Frank, Claire, Frank, Moderator 2 or 3, Claire, Frank, Blue, Claire, Purple, Frank, Bicycle, etc.

I think I just summarized every thread on the red board

You failed to mention headset

 

[Teller1900]

PoA is one, but be aware of EdFred, he uses a relay tough love approach

I got the tough part...still waiting for the love!

 

[EdFred]

I got the tough part...still waiting for the love!

You want love? Tough!!!

 

[silver-eagle]

I respectfully disagree. During my primary training, none of my CFIs EVER recommended "... any traffic in the area...". When I listened to aircraft speaking weird and unusual phrases like "... NDB 6, low approach only...", it was often followed by that phrase. And when I started IFR, I began to understand the weird phrases and the reason for them. "Any traffic in the area..." was being used to encourage non-IFR traffic to speak up. Here is an arriving aircraft at a pilot controlled airport where one is trying there best to follow a roadmap while wearing a bag on their head. It was a QUICK way to pick up the traffic picture then go back to the IFR procedure. My CFI even used it and encouraged it.
So, while big iron MAY use it, they probably have the same reasons. Capture the traffic picture and go back to the other tasks. As a rookie at IFR, I know how busy the cockpit suddenly becomes.

 

[poadeleted20]

When I listened to aircraft speaking weird and unusual phrases like "... NDB 6, low approach only...", it was often followed by that phrase.

So two wrongs make a right? I always teach my IR trainees to make their calls on CTAF as though the person listening was a first solo student. Thus, in your case, the call would be, "Moosebutt Traffic, Cessna 124 is five miles southwest, inbound, straight in runway 6, low approach, Moosebutt." Do that, and there is no need to use that awful ATIAPA call, as the student should be able to figure out where you are in relation to him/her and make an appropriate call (or else the student shouldn't be out solo).

 

[mikea]

I respectfully disagree. During my primary training, none of my CFIs EVER recommended "... any traffic in the area...". When I listened to aircraft speaking weird and unusual phrases like "... NDB 6, low approach only...", it was often followed by that phrase. And when I started IFR, I began to understand the weird phrases and the reason for them. "Any traffic in the area..." was being used to encourage non-IFR traffic to speak up. Here is an arriving aircraft at a pilot controlled airport where one is trying there best to follow a roadmap while wearing a bag on their head. It was a QUICK way to pick up the traffic picture then go back to the IFR procedure. My CFI even used it and encouraged it.
So, while big iron MAY use it, they probably have the same reasons. Capture the traffic picture and go back to the other tasks. As a rookie at IFR, I know how busy the cockpit suddenly becomes.

So two wrongs make a right? I always teach my IR trainees to make their calls on CTAF as though the person listening was a first solo student. Thus, in your case, the call would be, "Moosebutt Traffic, Cessna 124 is five miles southwest, inbound, straight in runway 6, low approach, Moosebutt." Do that, and there is no need to use that awful ATIAPA call, as the student should be able to figure out where you are in relation to him/her and make an appropriate call (or else the student shouldn't be out solo).

What Ron said!

NON-IFR traffic does not have an obligation to understand and advise IFR traffic and plead that they not fly into them.

During my long pre-PPL time CFI took the time to explain to me that when I heard "on the VOR Alpha approach" where I could expect that plane to be coming from and at what altitude.

 

[jwriteclub]

I also respectfully disagree in a few situations:

While I do generally find the call annoying, in northern California there are several airports frequently used for training where standard radio calls are frequently absent. When going to F72 or Yolo County (can't remember the identifier after all these years), I always make the anyone in the pattern please advise call, and it is frequently answered.

~ Christopher

 

[ScottM]

I also respectfully disagree in a few situations:

While I do generally find the call annoying, in northern California there are several airports frequently used for training where standard radio calls are frequently absent. When going to F72 or Yolo County (can't remember the identifier after all these years), I always make the anyone in the pattern please advise call, and it is frequently answered.

~ Christopher

So you feel that absolves you of the responsibility then of having to keep your eyes open? How do you deal with NORDO traffic? Seems to me that just because one or two people answer that one may be lulled into a false sense of security.

 

[jwriteclub]

I didn't say that!

What I said was that I'd ask, kinda falls under the "all available information", don't you think?

~ Christopher

 

[ScottM]

I didn't say that!

What I said was that I'd ask, kinda falls under the "all available information", don't you think?

~ Christopher

Nope I do not think that. Saying it did not get you any information that listening would have gotten nor does it give you information about NORDOS or people like me who will not respond to those requests. I will make my normal calls, it is up to you to listen. In the mean time I expect that everyone else in the air is going to kill me and will fly appropriately. Considering the vast consensus of pilots is that it is a useless phrase and the FAA went so far as to actually print in an advisory manual that it is useless and "should not be used under any condition."" I wonder why we still even have debate on this topic.

 

[jwriteclub]

To be clear.

I am addressing a couple of specific airports where this is regularly done and accepted.

Furthermore, I am sorry that you cannot take 30 seconds to respond to a request for advisories, but I, for one, shall continue to respond out of common courtesy when I hear such a request.

~ Christopher

 

[EdFred]

To be clear.

I am addressing a couple of specific airports where this is regularly done and accepted.

Furthermore, I am sorry that you cannot take 30 seconds to respond to a request for advisories, but I, for one, shall continue to respond out of common courtesy when I hear such a request.

~ Christopher

Slavery was also done and accepted, that doesn't make it right.

 

[jwriteclub]

Rather than continue responding to this thread and start a flame war, I am going to simply bow out.

I stand by my earlier position.

~ Christopher

 

[mikea]

I stand by my take that the dividing line between those of us who hate the call and those who think it's fine is how busy a CTAF area you fly in.

For us flatlanders the second we hit 500 feet AGL we hear every plane within 250 miles on an average day. When there's skip it's even farther. We don't need to hear repeated pleas for aircraft in the area 200 miles away to do any more than what they're supposed to do on the CTAF.

 

[gkainz]

To be clear.

I am addressing a couple of specific airports where this is regularly done and accepted.

Furthermore, I am sorry that you cannot take 30 seconds to respond to a request for advisories, but I, for one, shall continue to respond out of common courtesy when I hear such a request.

~ Christopher

So if you and a few others are in the pattern, self announcing all the way around, do you all parrot back when interrogated by the ATIAPA query or think as I do, "We all just SAID who, what and where we were. Were you not listening?"

I don't think we have flame wars here on POA ... some spirited discussions, but no flame wars?

 

[swamppilot]

What is the protocol for answering the ATPA call? If there are several aircraft in the pattern and they get that call, who answers first, second, and so on? If they all chime in at approximately the same time, all the ATPA announcer hears is a squeal (hetrodyning). Make position reports and listen to others making normal position reports; you get the traffic picture and they get the traffic picture. After making a normal position report in the pattern, why should all the aircraft already in the pattern (or have already called on the way in) have to restate their position for each new arrival? If you hear a position report which sounds like the other aircraft may be close to you (either in the pattern or just arriving) then of course make another position report, but why should an aircraft on downwind or base report to you when you call in 10 miles out?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Both answers are actually going to work best, we just never totally know when.

Yes of course everyone in the airport environment should be announcing and everyone else should hear each and every announcement. The reality is there are many pilots out there flying regularly who aren't fit to solo, solely by deficiencies in their radio work. If THEY hear a prompt (ATIAPA) to give a position report that they have not yet done, and then do so, that can't be bad for anyone however, everyone pays a needlessly higher price in FX congestion because of these individuals.

It can work another way too:
Once a Bo driver simply asked over the CTAF "Who's in the pattern at Bremerton?"
Of course HE couldn't be bothered with making his own position report and even his query came only as he traversed the downwind obliquely. One plus side was that anybody who heard him knew to be on guard for him. It was too late for us because we knew where he was due to the fact that he 5 seconds prior had blasted over the top of our downwind leg by maybe 200 feet, maybe 100!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I am addressing a couple of specific airports where this is regularly done and accepted.

And shouldn't be. Note the strenuous language used in the AIM... Not to be used under any circumstances.

Furthermore, I am sorry that you cannot take 30 seconds to respond to a request for advisories, but I, for one, shall continue to respond out of common courtesy when I hear such a request.

Make a position report, and I'll answer, assuming I'm closest, or if there's no other traffic that I know of, etc. No need for ATITAPA. It's redundant and repetitive.

 

[silver-eagle]

What Ron said!

NON-IFR traffic does not have an obligation to understand and advise IFR traffic and plead that they not fly into them.

During my long pre-PPL time CFI took the time to explain to me that when I heard "on the VOR Alpha approach" where I could expect that plane to be coming from and at what altitude.

I am not advocating "... Any traffic.." calls. As I said, I would typically hear it from aircraft on IFR approaches. My CFI also added it during my IFR training. Certainly does not make it right, but I understand. In many cases, we follow our training until we learn something better.
Two things I complained about. The first was that my CFI never took the time to explain non-VFR radio calls (after a fashion, I figured them out; AIM helps) and two, IFR traffic on a clear day couldn't use standard phrasing like Ron suggests.
I don't find the phrase annoying, just unnecessary. It's also great fodder when flying with other pilots. What I find annoying is pilots who, even with an AWOS/ASOS on field, still ask for airport advisories (winds, which direction).
Figure it out. That's what they pay you for.

 

[Missa]

There was one airport I was at which was Totally deserted that I was doing pattern work at... I got a bit sick of giving possition reports to no one... so I dropped a few possition reports, usually it was just "Podunk, archer on final touch & go podunk" & hummed around the feild. Then I heard someone report 10miles inbound the feild while I was somewhere on downwind... There was no ATITAPA but I responded my possition and intentions and made all the standard calls. The ATITAPA call is redundant anyone in th area who has desire for saftey is going to respond unless they just made a possition call and the frequancy is busy and then you should hear them and all others as they hit the main possitions.