Some pics for ya!

[Meanee]

So, after taking up the usual (family), few of my friends thought that it's about time they try the whole flying thing. And me, as newly minted private pilot, was glad to give them a tour. Since we are all from Brooklyn, NY, where should we go on this hot day? The beach! Mainly, Brighton Beach. Where water is green, people are rude and gazillion of banner towers are always out.

Ducking under NY Class B, and 3 passes later I have satisfied passengers, and some cell phone shots. Enjoy.

 

[cleared4theoption]

Nice pics!

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Awesome!!! That is my favorite route. I usually fly to FOK for lunch and then go south shore westbound and up the hudson (skyline route). Passengers love it!

 

[Meanee]

Taking the Hudson SFRA course is one of my things on to do list. So hopefully soon I can do that too.

 

[redtail]

Nice pics. I took my sister a few months ago when the beaches were still empty. It was pretty windy and bumpy and it was her first GA flight so she only took a few pics of the Statue of Liberty and this pic of midtown manhattan

We did the Hudson exclusion at 1100'. I wanted to take her up the east river and over central park but I didn't wanna push it since it was so bumpy. She actually enjoyed the flight but I would have liked a little smoother air for her so we headed back. She was quiet the whole flight so I kept asking her if she was ok

 

[redtail]

Let me ask you, how do you feel about flying this route over water at 500' ?

The reason I ask is because I've never flown it in the summer, so the beaches were empty and I stayed over them the entire route, from FRG to the Hudson.

So since we have to stay below the JFK bravo, I was thinking I'd feel safer going out to the Hudson from the north (which I've done several times). I'm familiar with the skyline route and have flown it many times.

I just wouldn't wanna have engine problems that low over water, knowing the beach is not an option!

 

[MassPilot]

45 degree bank with first time passengers? Wonder what they thought of that. Seeing nothing but sky to one side, nothing but ground on the other, and the whole world tilted 45 degrees has got to be an intimidating view for a non-pilot.

 

[CMTowner]

great shots. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Meanee]

45 degree bank with first time passengers? Wonder what they thought of that. Seeing nothing but sky to one side, nothing but ground on the other, and the whole world tilted 45 degrees has got to be an intimidating view for a non-pilot.

While en route, he actually asked to see things that I can do. I offered to show a stall and a steep turn. Did a power-off stall at about 3000', and followed with a steep turn. He was very happy. So after that, he felt comfortable the entire flight.

 

[Meanee]

Let me ask you, how do you feel about flying this route over water at 500' ?

The reason I ask is because I've never flown it in the summer, so the beaches were empty and I stayed over them the entire route, from FRG to the Hudson.

So since we have to stay below the JFK bravo, I was thinking I'd feel safer going out to the Hudson from the north (which I've done several times). I'm familiar with the skyline route and have flown it many times.

I just wouldn't wanna have engine problems that low over water, knowing the beach is not an option!

At that particular spot, Class B shelf begins at 1500'. I dropped to 500' to do a beach flyover and then went up to 1000. If engine fails, beach is not an option. But there are bunch of boats, recreational and police, in that particular area. I am sure that help would be there within seconds.

One thing I am curious about, how would I get from, let's say, Linden (LDJ) to FRG? I REALLY do not want to fly under the 500' shelf, or go out to the ocean to 1500' shelf.

 

[MassPilot]

While en route, he actually asked to see things that I can do. I offered to show a stall and a steep turn. Did a power-off stall at about 3000', and followed with a steep turn. He was very happy. So after that, he felt comfortable the entire flight.

Nice. I wish my friends were that brave.

 

[rottydaddy]

One thing I am curious about, how would I get from, let's say, Linden (LDJ) to FRG? I REALLY do not want to fly under the 500' shelf, or go out to the ocean to 1500' shelf.

Assuming you can't get clearance through the B airspace, the only option for that flight is to go north around NYC, either via the corridor, or around the west side of the Class B.

It's not unheard-of to get cleared through the Class B... that would be my first choice.
But I've made the jump from Sandy Hook to Coney Island and back- it's not a long time to be over water under the 1500-ft shelf (shelf is 3000 over Raritan Bay, on the way to the Hook). From Staten Island, it's even shorter. Just open the throttle and think happy thoughts. Of course, if the beaches are crowded, from there you will still technically be ditching if you have trouble- when the beaches are crowded, so are the beach roads. Only time I did that route was in mid-winter, so the beach was available all the way to Montauk.

I didn't have a PFD then, but I do now, and next time I fly in the Hudson corridor or anywhere over the harbor or beaches below the Class B, I'll be wearing it. I don't sweat the potential loss of the aircraft over water any more than over land, but I'd hate to find myself in the water, probably injured, without a PFD (assuming it's warm enough to be survivable).

A PFD doesn't have to be a clunky "Mae West" type of thing; mine are older SOSpenders, very minimal and light, but when deployed it is good enough to keep your head out of the water if it's not too rough.

 

[Skip Miller]

Assuming you can't get clearance through the B airspace, the only option for that flight is to go north around NYC, either via the corridor, or around the west side of the Class B.

The top of the NYC Bravo is 7,000 MSL. You also have the option of going over the Bravo, cloud ceilings permitting.

Yes you have to overfly Linden and descend beyond the limits of the Class B airspace, then return to Linden under the Bravo shelf. I'll bet this is a lot less distance to travel than circumnavigating the Bravo to the north.

Plus, by the time you get over Linden, you are talking to a different controller who might just give you Bravo clearance and vectors for a VFR descent to Linden.

It's worth a try.

-Skip

 

[Mike I]

Assuming you can't get clearance through the B airspace, the only option for that flight is to go north around NYC, either via the corridor, or around the west side of the Class B.

It's not unheard-of to get cleared through the Class B... that would be my first choice.
But I've made the jump from Sandy Hook to Coney Island and back- it's not a long time to be over water under the 1500-ft shelf (shelf is 3000 over Raritan Bay, on the way to the Hook). From Staten Island, it's even shorter. Just open the throttle and think happy thoughts. Of course, if the beaches are crowded, from there you will still technically be ditching if you have trouble- when the beaches are crowded, so are the beach roads. Only time I did that route was in mid-winter, so the beach was available all the way to Montauk.

I didn't have a PFD then, but I do now, and next time I fly in the Hudson corridor or anywhere over the harbor or beaches below the Class B, I'll be wearing it. I don't sweat the potential loss of the aircraft over water any more than over land, but I'd hate to find myself in the water, probably injured, without a PFD (assuming it's warm enough to be survivable).

A PFD doesn't have to be a clunky "Mae West" type of thing; mine are older SOSpenders, very minimal and light, but when deployed it is good enough to keep your head out of the water if it's not too rough.

It's not only not unheard of to get clearance through the NYC Bravo...it's very straightforward.

Going from Linden to FRG, I'd start with contacting EWR (127.85) and requesting Linden Route, Overhead EWR to join the Hudson and handoff LaGuardia. You'll be cleared over the Runway 22 or 4 numbers, then turn direct the Statue of Liberty. Request either Hudson River or East River. You'll soon be handed off to LGA (126.05). Request Central Park (if going up Hudson), North Tip (of Roosevelt), Overhead tower cab, Throgs Neck, flight following to FRG. That'll take you all the way there, in the Class B until east of the Throgs Neck.

Alternatively, I've taken the Track Routing near JFK. You could request from Newark after going overhead to go direct Ridgewood Reservoir, handoff JFK for the Track Routing. This will take you almost all the way to FRG as well. I've requested this twice and been granted twice, each time going both east and westbound.

Edit: If you're going to fly these routes, it's very helpful (mandatory) to have a copy of the NYC Heli charts onboard, as it'll have the routes and waypoints like Ridgewood to keep an eye out for.

 

[Meanee]

The top of the NYC Bravo is 7,000 MSL. You also have the option of going over the Bravo, cloud ceilings permitting.

Yes you have to overfly Linden and descend beyond the limits of the Class B airspace, then return to Linden under the Bravo shelf. I'll bet this is a lot less distance to travel than circumnavigating the Bravo to the north.

Plus, by the time you get over Linden, you are talking to a different controller who might just give you Bravo clearance and vectors for a VFR descent to Linden.

It's worth a try.

-Skip

I spoke with one of airline pilots in Allentown about going OVER Class B. He said that I should be talking to someone anyway, because jets do break through the top of the airspace there. Just because I am 7k over the city does not mean I won't run into a Boeing.

Feels weird. Most of my dual training was in Linden, but I have ZERO experience talking to NY approach, or EWR/LGA tower. And I never been to Hudson corridor. I should talk to my CFI to arrange that training.

 

[Mike I]

I spoke with one of airline pilots in Allentown about going OVER Class B. He said that I should be talking to someone anyway, because jets do break through the top of the airspace there. Just because I am 7k over the city does not mean I won't run into a Boeing.

Solid advice. I've also been cleared through the Bravo at 6,500' right over Manhattan before, so you don't necessarily need to go all the way over.

Feels weird. Most of my dual training was in Linden, but I have ZERO experience talking to NY approach, or EWR/LGA tower. And I never been to Hudson corridor. I should talk to my CFI to arrange that training.

Also valuable is listening to LiveATC in the area:
Newark Heli/VFR traffic (127.85)
Laguardia Heli/VFR traffic (126.05 and others)
CTAF for Hudson and East Rivers
(Disclaimer: I run those feeds)

NYC controllers are helpful and accommodating, so don't be afraid to ask. Don't be overwhelmed by the NYC Class B. It's not impenetrable. Whenever I fly around the city, I always fly in the Bravo instead of the SFRA.

Attached is a recent flight with some friends from FRG around the city then off to Montauk, on the Track routing I mentioned earlier. I went over Central Park instead of direct since I wasn't heading to Linden, but it's all VFR with no prior coordination...just calling up ATC and asking nicely.

If you do go the Overhead EWR and LGA route, bring a camera... it's a cool view looking straight down at each of those airports. Also attached is a shot looking down at LGA, from a different flight.

 

[Meanee]

Mike, thank you for advice. I keep hearing these routes (Track, Linden) and saw it on NYC Heli map. Seem easy enough. Do they actually tell you to fly these routes?

 

[Mike I]

Mike, thank you for advice. I keep hearing these routes (Track, Linden) and saw it on NYC Heli map. Seem easy enough. Do they actually tell you to fly these routes?

You won't likely be assigned them unless you request them, since the controller may not know you're familiar with the routes.

For your flight, the most direct route, here's how it might go:

You (on Newark 127.85): "Newark Tower, MEANEE1 off of Linden, 800ft"
EWR: "MEANEE1, Squawk 0305, say request"
You: "0305 MEANEE1, Request Linden route, overhead Newark, Governor's Island, handoff Kennedy for Track routing eastbound"
EWR: "MEANEE1, Radar contact 800ft one mile east of Linden, cleared into the Class Bravo airspace, climb and maintain 1500. Proceed north on the Linden route then overhead the runway 22 numbers. Altimeter 29.87"
You: "29.97, cleared in, climb and maintain 1500ft Linden route overhead 22 numbers, MEANEE1"

After flying over EWR, you'll head direct Governor's Island, then likely be told to contact Kennedy:

EWR: "MEANEE1 Proceed direct Governor's Island, contact Kennedy Tower on (119.1/123.9/125.25)"
You: "Direct Governor's, switching to Kennedy 119.1 MEANEE1"
You (On JFK 119.1): "Kennedy Tower, MEANEE1 level 1500, Track routing eastbound to Farmingdale"
JFK: "MEANEE1, Proceed direct Ridgewood Reservoir then join the Tracks eastbound. Altimeter 29.88"
You: "29.88, direct Ridgewood, tracks eastbound, MEANEE1"

Now, just follow the railroad tracks after passing the reservoir. At some point on a second radio if you have one, pick up the ATIS at FRG on 126.65. At some point once you pass the 70|SFC part of the Class B at the JFK 8nm ring, you will probably be dropped by JFK:

JFK: "MEANEE1, descend to 1400ft or below, radar service terminated, squawk VFR"
You: "Squawk VFR, 1400ft or below, MEANEE1"

That's a good time to call up FRG:

You (on FRG 118.8): "Republic Tower, MEANEE1, one mile north of Nassau Coliseum, 1400ft, inbound with (ATIS)"
FRG: "MEANEE1, Republic, join the left downwind for Runway 32, report joining the downwind"

Business as usual from then on out! It's a little intimidating the first time but quickly becomes second nature.

 

[Skip Miller]

I spoke with one of airline pilots in Allentown about going OVER Class B. He said that I should be talking to someone anyway, because jets do break through the top of the airspace there.

That's very true. On the other hand, I have never been denied VFR Advisories when flying over the Bravo. ATC wants to be talking to you if you are that close to the Bravo.

-Skip

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Most of the time Bravo clearances up the hudson or through the Bravo (east/west) are dependent on runway configuration. If LGA is landing 13 things get really messed up. If EWR is landing 22L/R, it also makes things interesting if you're trying to transit the north part of the Bravo going westbound. That being said, the folks at N90 are really good and will always try their best to accommodate your request.

 

[redtail]

Solid advice. I've also been cleared through the Bravo at 6,500' right over Manhattan before, so you don't necessarily need to go all the way over.


Also valuable is listening to LiveATC in the area:
Newark Heli/VFR traffic (127.85)
Laguardia Heli/VFR traffic (126.05 and others)
CTAF for Hudson and East Rivers
(Disclaimer: I run those feeds)

NYC controllers are helpful and accommodating, so don't be afraid to ask. Don't be overwhelmed by the NYC Class B. It's not impenetrable. Whenever I fly around the city, I always fly in the Bravo instead of the SFRA.

Attached is a recent flight with some friends from FRG around the city then off to Montauk, on the Track routing I mentioned earlier. I went over Central Park instead of direct since I wasn't heading to Linden, but it's all VFR with no prior coordination...just calling up ATC and asking nicely.

If you do go the Overhead EWR and LGA route, bring a camera... it's a cool view looking straight down at each of those airports. Also attached is a shot looking down at LGA, from a different flight.

Very helpful info, thanks. I'm fairly new to FRG (became my home base last year).
One question. Do you ever get request a VFR bravo clearance on the ground?

Not the skyline route (I usually request that near the Alpine Tower), but for other flights. A few weeks ago, I flew up to KMPO and was granted a Bravo clearance direct @ 6500' after contacting NY appr, just north of the FRG Delta.

I was pleasently surprised because I only requested flight following and was prepared to remain below the Bravo and south of KHPN's Delta.

 

[redtail]

You won't likely be assigned them unless you request them, since the controller may not know you're familiar with the routes.

For your flight, the most direct route, here's how it might go:

You (on Newark 127.85): "Newark Tower, MEANEE1 off of Linden, 800ft"
EWR: "MEANEE1, Squawk 0305, say request"
You: "0305 MEANEE1, Request Linden route, overhead Newark, Governor's Island, handoff Kennedy for Track routing eastbound"
EWR: "MEANEE1, Radar contact 800ft one mile east of Linden, cleared into the Class Bravo airspace, climb and maintain 1500. Proceed north on the Linden route then overhead the runway 22 numbers. Altimeter 29.87"
You: "29.97, cleared in, climb and maintain 1500ft Linden route overhead 22 numbers, MEANEE1"

After flying over EWR, you'll head direct Governor's Island, then likely be told to contact Kennedy:

EWR: "MEANEE1 Proceed direct Governor's Island, contact Kennedy Tower on (119.1/123.9/125.25)"
You: "Direct Governor's, switching to Kennedy 119.1 MEANEE1"
You (On JFK 119.1): "Kennedy Tower, MEANEE1 level 1500, Track routing eastbound to Farmingdale"
JFK: "MEANEE1, Proceed direct Ridgewood Reservoir then join the Tracks eastbound. Altimeter 29.88"
You: "29.88, direct Ridgewood, tracks eastbound, MEANEE1"

Now, just follow the railroad tracks after passing the reservoir. At some point on a second radio if you have one, pick up the ATIS at FRG on 126.65. At some point once you pass the 70|SFC part of the Class B at the JFK 8nm ring, you will probably be dropped by JFK:

JFK: "MEANEE1, descend to 1400ft or below, radar service terminated, squawk VFR"
You: "Squawk VFR, 1400ft or below, MEANEE1"

That's a good time to call up FRG:

You (on FRG 118.8): "Republic Tower, MEANEE1, one mile north of Nassau Coliseum, 1400ft, inbound with (ATIS)"
FRG: "MEANEE1, Republic, join the left downwind for Runway 32, report joining the downwind"

Business as usual from then on out! It's a little intimidating the first time but quickly becomes second nature.

Wow! This is really good info here! I live not too far from the Belmont racetrack ( Runways 22L/R final) and that would be cool to fly the Track route! So the track route is over the LIRR....cool!

I must admit, I've never paid much attention to the Heli chart. I have looked at it a few times but never really studied it in detail.

Thank you very much. You've just opened up my world

 

[Mike I]

Most of the time Bravo clearances up the hudson or through the Bravo (east/west) are dependent on runway configuration. If LGA is landing 13 things get really messed up. If EWR is landing 22L/R, it also makes things interesting if you're trying to transit the north part of the Bravo going westbound. That being said, the folks at N90 are really good and will always try their best to accommodate your request.

Just as Jason said, the runway configs affect everything. For a bit of light reading about the complexities of New York airspace:
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/nas_...ocumentation/media/MP070049_NY_Mitigation.pdf

One question. Do you ever get request a VFR bravo clearance on the ground?

Nope, not from FRG at least.

 

[redtail]

Just as Jason said, the runway configs affect everything. For a bit of light reading about the complexities of New York airspace:
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/nas_...ocumentation/media/MP070049_NY_Mitigation.pdf



Nope, not from FRG at least.

So how do you go about requesting the Track route westbound after departing? I'm thinking ask FRG for an early freq change, then contact NY 118.0 125.7 and request. Yes?

 

[Mike I]

I proceed direct to the split of the tracks in Hicksville at 1100' then contact JFK on 125.25. Since you'll be in JFK's SFC airspace, Approach can't help you...they would tell you to contact tower most likely.

 

[redtail]

I proceed direct to the split of the tracks in Hicksville at 1100' then contact JFK on 125.25. Since you'll be in JFK's SFC airspace, Approach can't help you...they would tell you to contact tower most likely.

Makes perfect sense. I'm so used to contacting approach in this area, didn't think of that.

Thanks Mike. Next time I head west I'll give it a try and keep plan B in my hip pocket.

 

[redtail]

"Kennedy Tower, Cessna 12345 one mile northest of the Nassua Coliseum, 1100. Request Track & Williamsburg Routes to the East River"

how's that?

 

[Mike I]

I imagine that would do it. Kennedy sometimes tries to assign "at or below 1000ft", so it is up to you if you want to accept that clearance, with regards to 91.119(b). Just because they assign it doesn't mean you are given a waiver to minimum altitudes.

 

[redtail]

I imagine that would do it. Kennedy sometimes tries to assign "at or below 1000ft", so it is up to you if you want to accept that clearance, with regards to 91.119(b). Just because they assign it doesn't mean you are given a waiver to minimum altitudes.

Oh ok thanks for the tip.

Took a closer look at the NY heli chart and it looks like I'd be able to meet 91.119(b) if I can get the Track and Reservoir Routes at 1000. They'd probably climb me up to 1500 over the East River. That's what I usually get when approaching from Governors Island.

 

[Seanaldinho]

45 degree bank with first time passengers? Wonder what they thought of that. Seeing nothing but sky to one side, nothing but ground on the other, and the whole world tilted 45 degrees has got to be an intimidating view for a non-pilot.

Oh thats nothing.

When I take people up in my Grob 103 I'll do 90 to 100 degrees of bank. All in the name of staying in a thermal though :wink2: