Some info requests from twin owners

[Aztec Driver]

Hello fellow POA members. Since I will soon be looking for another twin to fly, I wondered what numbers I could gather for each of the twins out there.

Namely:
# of passengers
average amount of useful load
average range
gph fuel burn
normal cruise speed
approximate amount for insurance including typical time requirements
average outlay price
"average" maintenance bills (HAHAHAHAHA)

My Aztec had a useful load of ~1000 lbs with full fuel, easily accomodating 6 "normal people". I have flown it at gross weights several times. It would fly for 4.5-5 hours on 140 gallons of fuel (depending on leaning technique) at ~160 kts. It cost ~$3000 for the three of us for insurance. I would like something comparable, and I am not at all adverse to lightening the load and going to something single engine, like a Bonanza. I would prefer not to reduce speed to much, as some of my trips are 4 hours in the Aztec.

I was thinking of maybe a Cessna 310, another Aztec, or maybe a Seneca II. What do all of you more experienced aviators have to say?

 

[bbchien]

Hello fellow POA members. Since I will soon be looking for another twin to fly, I wondered what numbers I could gather for each of the twins out there.

Namely:
# of passengers
average amount of useful load
average range
gph fuel burn
normal cruise speed
approximate amount for insurance including typical time requirements
average outlay price
"average" maintenance bills (HAHAHAHAHA)

My Aztec had a useful load of ~1000 lbs with full fuel, easily accomodating 6 "normal people". I have flown it at gross weights several times. It would fly for 4.5-5 hours on 140 gallons of fuel (depending on leaning technique) at ~160 kts. It cost ~$3000 for the three of us for insurance. I would like something comparable, and I am not at all adverse to lightening the load and going to something single engine, like a Bonanza. I would prefer not to reduce speed to much, as some of my trips are 4 hours in the Aztec.

I was thinking of maybe a Cessna 310, another Aztec, or maybe a Seneca II. What do all of you more experienced aviators have to say?

Seneca II: 1500 useful, 6 hours' fuel at 65% power, 762 lbs in the cabin. OR, 950 pounds in the cabin and 4.7 hr's fuel 10.5 gph per side, by the book, 65%). That's 1000 nm range in a multi carrying 762 pounds. Not bad. Best part: annual maintenence bills are about 15K and you can get 'em with known ice for about $175K. Insurance for me is under 4K (1M smooth).

Now the 310, I refer you to Bob Gerace. It'll best me by 30 kts (I get 175 in the Flight Levels at 65%) but I can run my Seneca II for many years on what the poor guy spent to get it right....

Cabin MUCH bigger than a Baron.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Okay, hold on to something solid. King Air 300. Fill the seats (all of 'em) throw on about 3600 pounds of Jet A, go fly for 4 hours with a solid 1.5 reserve, fly in the flight levels in pressurized comfort, spend about 12K on each Phase inspection (you'll need to complete one every 200 hours and all four in a 24 month period) and spend about 18K a year on insurance. You'll need a type rating and yearly recurrent training. Not exactly an Aztec but you will have a potty and at least two pee tubes for crew and passenger comfort.

 

[Richard]

Okay, hold on to something solid. King Air 300. Fill the seats (all of 'em) throw on about 3600 pounds of Jet A, go fly for 4 hours with a solid 1.5 reserve, fly in the flight levels in pressurized comfort, spend about 12K on each Phase inspection (you'll need to complete one every 200 hours and all four in a 24 month period) and spend about 18K a year on insurance. You'll need a type rating and yearly recurrent training. Not exactly an Aztec but you will have a potty and at least two pee tubes for crew and passenger comfort.

That toy better be pulling in $200K/yr otherwise who but those who drip money could afford it?

 

[bbchien]

Okay, hold on to something solid. King Air 300. Fill the seats (all of 'em) throw on about 3600 pounds of Jet A, go fly for 4 hours with a solid 1.5 reserve, fly in the flight levels in pressurized comfort, spend about 12K on each Phase inspection (you'll need to complete one every 200 hours and all four in a 24 month period) and spend about 18K a year on insurance. You'll need a type rating and yearly recurrent training. Not exactly an Aztec but you will have a potty and at least two pee tubes for crew and passenger comfort.

OK. Well, it's not a twin, but the E188 takes up to 69,000 pounds of Jet A and the FOUR T54s will run you $50,000 K each per phase check, four of them before TBO at 3600 IIRC, at which time you are out 2 Million. It'll go 300knots, and carry a WHOLE BUNCH of gear and men halfway around the globe. You can take fuel in the air if your'e to busy to stop.

I think I like your Mooney 252 better.

 

[gibbons]

Seneca II: 1500 useful, 6 hours' fuel at 65% power, 762 lbs in the cabin. OR, 950 pounds in the cabin and 4.7 hr's fuel 10.5 gph per side, by the book, 65%). That's 1000 nm range in a multi carrying 762 pounds. Not bad. Best part: annual maintenence bills are about 15K and you can get 'em with known ice for about $175K. Insurance for me is under 4K (1M smooth).

Single engine performance? Cruise speed? (no, not book speed - actual TAS).

Actually, I think a Seneca III will be my next family airplane when my wife and I move and I have to give up my share of the A36. So I'm not picking on the Seneca, just pointing out it has its shortcomings just like every light twin.

As for block to block speed, my logbook calculates speed. The actual block to block is based on hobbs time for x-country flights, the calculated speed subtracts .15 hours from the total time for start-up and shut-down. Just to share:
block-to-block calculated
B58P 176 kts 198 kts
B55 156 kts 173 kts
C310 158 kts 174 kts
A36 148 kts 163 kts
C182 125 kts 133 kts
C177RG 110 kts 123 kts

YMMV.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

OK. Well, it's not a twin, but the E188 takes up to 69,000 pounds of Jet A and the FOUR T54s will run you $50,000 K each per phase check, four of them before TBO at 3600 IIRC, at which time you are out 2 Million. It'll go 300knots, and carry a WHOLE BUNCH of gear and men halfway around the globe. You can take fuel in the air if your'e to busy to stop.

I think I like your Mooney 252 better.

I miss the Herc. What a great airplane. Many fond memories of tossing things, including myself, from that airplane. I like the Mooney too.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Okay, hold on to something solid. King Air 300. Fill the seats (all of 'em) throw on about 3600 pounds of Jet A, go fly for 4 hours with a solid 1.5 reserve, fly in the flight levels in pressurized comfort, spend about 12K on each Phase inspection (you'll need to complete one every 200 hours and all four in a 24 month period) and spend about 18K a year on insurance. You'll need a type rating and yearly recurrent training. Not exactly an Aztec but you will have a potty and at least two pee tubes for crew and passenger comfort.

OK. Well, it's not a twin, but the E188 takes up to 69,000 pounds of Jet A and the FOUR T54s will run you $50,000 K each per phase check, four of them before TBO at 3600 IIRC, at which time you are out 2 Million. It'll go 300knots, and carry a WHOLE BUNCH of gear and men halfway around the globe. You can take fuel in the air if your'e to busy to stop.

OK guys, let's remove ourselves from your alternate realities here and return to "normal". As you can see from my numbers in the Aztec, I am not "dripping money". I am just a lowly service tech who happens to also by a pilot, let's get real.

Bruce, do you really average about 15K in maintenance each year in the Seneca? Does that include reserves, or is that actual costs? Our actual costs per year for the last two years has been around $5500-$6000. Admittedly, we did not add any extra panel goodies or creature comforts, but we kept everything airworthy and operational. (at least up until the last flight. )

Something tells me I am in for a real eye opening. I was hoping that Bob Gerace's post was an unfortunate rarity, not a normal state of affairs cost wise.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Single engine performance? Cruise speed? (no, not book speed - actual TAS).

Actually, I think a Seneca III will be my next family airplane when my wife and I move and I have to give up my share of the A36. So I'm not picking on the Seneca, just pointing out it has its shortcomings just like every light twin.

As for block to block speed, my logbook calculates speed. The actual block to block is based on hobbs time for x-country flights, the calculated speed subtracts .15 hours from the total time for start-up and shut-down. Just to share:
block-to-block calculated
B58P 176 kts 198 kts
B55 156 kts 173 kts
C310 158 kts 174 kts
A36 148 kts 163 kts
C182 125 kts 133 kts
C177RG 110 kts 123 kts

YMMV.

Thanks Chip. I assume these are ground speeds and out and back x countries? Approximate cruise airspeed would be somewhere in the middle then?
Anyone with info on a Cessna 310?

 

[gismo]

Hello fellow POA members. Since I will soon be looking for another twin to fly, I wondered what numbers I could gather for each of the twins out there.

B55 Baron:

# of passengers 5+pilot (the rear two seats are for kids or small adults)

average amount of useful load: 1700 lbs

average range: 900 no reserve @180 KTAS
1100 no reserve @160 KTAS

gph fuel burn 26 @ 180 KTAS
20 @ 160 KTAS

normal cruise speed 160-185 KTAS

approximate amount for insurance including typical time requirements I'm paying $3800 for 1M smooth
AFaIK 500 TT and 25-50 time in make/model are sufficient.

average outlay price $120-200k

"average" maintenance bills (HAHAHAHAHA)
Around $5-6k/yr excluding engine o/h

I was thinking of maybe a Cessna 310, another Aztec, or maybe a Seneca II. What do all of you more experienced aviators have to say?

The B55 is really a four place aircraft with lots of cargo room. Six can fly in a pinch with reduced fuel. K-ice can be had with TKS, but most de-iced B55's have boots plus alky prop and w/s. This isn't KI, but there's no prohibition against flying in ice either (part 91). Some B55's have been retrofitted with IO550's which gains about 15 KTAS in the low teens. The cabin is not as wide as an Aztec or Seneca but is quite roomy when set up for four and marginally adequate for five or six. One of the big selling points is the control harmony and feel, they fly more like a fast light single. Two other models of Barons exist in good numbers, the B58 and the C/D/E55. The latter is pretty much the same airframe with 25 extra HP per side and a longer nose baggage compartment. The B58 shares the cabin with the 36 series Bonanzas which is 10 inches longer from the windshield back.

 

[bbchien]

OK guys, let's remove ourselves from your alternate realities here and return to "normal". As you can see from my numbers in the Aztec, I am not "dripping money". I am just a lowly service tech who happens to also by a pilot, let's get real.

Bruce, do you really average about 15K in maintenance each year in the Seneca? Does that include reserves, or is that actual costs? Our actual costs per year for the last two years has been around $5500-$6000. Admittedly, we did not add any extra panel goodies or creature comforts, but we kept everything airworthy and operational. (at least up until the last flight. )

Something tells me I am in for a real eye opening. I was hoping that Bob Gerace's post was an unfortunate rarity, not a normal state of affairs cost wise.

]~$15,000 includes everything. Amortizations of engines and propellors over 1800 hours at 28K each +3K each props, 200 hrs/year. It doesn't include updating my avionics suite, which I consider a capital expense. I run about $3000 annuals and $500 a month (6K) for this or that (and I fix EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING must work for me to depart). I am VERY careful with my boots; I run 100% for one minute on departure, then 65% power only even in climb (unless ice demands more).

Fuel is 21 gph or $63/hour block to block. 200 hours, $12,000 in fuel. Insurance is 4K. Hangar is 2.5K. This is about $35K per year.

If you only fly 100 hours, it's $6000 less. Everything else is the same.

KaChing!

 

[Aztec Driver]

B55 Baron:

# of passengers 5+pilot (the rear two seats are for kids or small adults)

average amount of useful load: 1700 lbs

average range: 900 no reserve @180 KTAS
1100 no reserve @160 KTAS

gph fuel burn 26 @ 180 KTAS
20 @ 160 KTAS

normal cruise speed 160-185 KTAS

approximate amount for insurance including typical time requirements I'm paying $3800 for 1M smooth
AFaIK 500 TT and 25-50 time in make/model are sufficient.

average outlay price $120-200k

"average" maintenance bills (HAHAHAHAHA)
Around $5-6k/yr excluding engine o/h



The B55 is really a four place aircraft with lots of cargo room. Six can fly in a pinch with reduced fuel. K-ice can be had with TKS, but most de-iced B55's have boots plus alky prop and w/s. This isn't KI, but there's no prohibition against flying in ice either (part 91). Some B55's have been retrofitted with IO550's which gains about 15 KTAS in the low teens. The cabin is not as wide as an Aztec or Seneca but is quite roomy when set up for four and marginally adequate for five or six. One of the big selling points is the control harmony and feel, they fly more like a fast light single. Two other models of Barons exist in good numbers, the B58 and the C/D/E55. The latter is pretty much the same airframe with 25 extra HP per side and a longer nose baggage compartment. The B58 shares the cabin with the 36 series Bonanzas which is 10 inches longer from the windshield back.

That also sounds reasonable. I don't often need six seats, but when I do, they will be small fries. Of course, who knows, their mom's may not let them fly with Grandpa now, since he crashed his plane. A little less load than the Aztec, but faster, which is probably better. Our Aztec had KI package, which I had occasion to use a few times. How much less effective, and here is a place I know little about, are the alcohol props and w/s as opposed to the heated props and w/s?

 

[Aztec Driver]

]~$15,000 includes everything. Amortizations of engines and propellors over 1800 hours at 28K each +3K each props, 200 hrs/year. It doesn't include updating my avionics suite, which I consider a capital expense. I run about $3000 annuals and $500 a month (6K) for this or that (and I fix EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING must work for me to depart). I am VERY careful with my boots; I run 100% for one minute on departure, then 65% power only even in climb (unless ice demands more).

Fuel is 21 gph or $63/hour block to block. 200 hours, $12,000 in fuel. Insurance is 4K. Hangar is 2.5K. This is about $35K per year.

If you only fly 100 hours, it's $6000 less. Everything else is the same.

KaChing!

Ah, but that's a little more on par with what we spent the last two years. The engine overhauls are more pricey because of the turbos, but other than that, things are close.
Thanks.

 

[gismo]

Our Aztec had KI package, which I had occasion to use a few times. How much less effective, and here is a place I know little about, are the alcohol props and w/s as opposed to the heated props and w/s?

Alky props work about as well as electric hot pads except for two things: If you let the ice build up significantly before turning the anti-ice on, it can take longer to shed with alky (a few minutes vs several seconds) and you have a limited supply of fluid. Maintainance wise they are about a wash, with alky you need to clean the orifice every few months vs replacing brushes every year or two with the electric. Also with electric props it's possible to lose the heater for one blade and that can cause a terrible imbalance when the ice builds/sheds unevenly. AFaIK this cannot happen with alky props.

As to the windshield, with alky you don't have to peer through a 4-5" wide slot at the runway but the fluid blurs things a bit. As with the props the limited fluid suppy can be an issue. I carry three gallons which is enough for 3-4 hours on the props, but only 20 minutes on the windshield. So far I've always managed to clear the w/s on approach prior to landing using a combination of heat and fluid. I believe it does help to run the defroster at max for a half hour before landing as warm ice is easier to shed.

 

[SCCutler]

Bryon:

May be a stupid question, but have you considered finding another nice Aztec? Call me silly, but the same characteristics that probably led you to buy yours in the first place probably still apply, and from my (admittedly, limited) review of the marketplace, it still seems like the Aztec is a damned fine compromise of performance and utility, and they tend to be very reasonable in price. Am I just confused? If you could find the holy grail- a nice, KI turbo Aztec- might it be worth considering?

In any event, in this marketplace, I think the Aztec, or a nice Seneca, would do the trick nicely. Whatever you do, keep us posted so we can learn from your experience (I feel almost as if I have gotten a PhD from Bob G, and I am not making any jokes here!).

 

[poadeleted20]

Grumman GA-7 Cougar

# of passengers: 4
average amount of useful load: 1100
average range: over 1000 nm with full tanks (114 gal usable) and 2 people
gph fuel burn: 15
normal cruise speed: 150 KTAS
approximate amount for insurance including typical time requirements: $3000/yr for me; min 750 TT/100 retractable/50 ME with 5 PIC in type or 25 PIC in type to be insurable
average outlay price: $120K for nice with modern avionics, $85K for tired old school plane
"average" maintenance bills: $2000 annual, $2000/yr for other stuff incl. oil changes

 

[grattonja]

Grumman GA-7 Cougar



He can rent that from his former partners in the Aztec. I think Bryon got his ME on that aircraft. Not enough seats was your lament, right Bryon?

Jim G

 

[Aztec Driver]

Bryon:

May be a stupid question, but have you considered finding another nice Aztec? Call me silly, but the same characteristics that probably led you to buy yours in the first place probably still apply, and from my (admittedly, limited) review of the marketplace, it still seems like the Aztec is a damned fine compromise of performance and utility, and they tend to be very reasonable in price. Am I just confused? If you could find the holy grail- a nice, KI turbo Aztec- might it be worth considering?

In any event, in this marketplace, I think the Aztec, or a nice Seneca, would do the trick nicely. Whatever you do, keep us posted so we can learn from your experience (I feel almost as if I have gotten a PhD from Bob G, and I am not making any jokes here!).

Not a silly question at all. That would be my first pick, I believe, since I have so much time in it. There are a few that I have seen that are reasonable and I am looking "closely" at them.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Grumman GA-7 Cougar

# of passengers: 4
average amount of useful load: 1100
average range: over 1000 nm with full tanks (114 gal usable) and 2 people
gph fuel burn: 15
normal cruise speed: 150 KTAS
approximate amount for insurance including typical time requirements: $3000/yr for me; min 750 TT/100 retractable/50 ME with 5 PIC in type or 25 PIC in type to be insurable
average outlay price: $120K for nice with modern avionics, $85K for tired old school plane
"average" maintenance bills: $2000 annual, $2000/yr for other stuff incl. oil changes

The Cougar is an OK aircraft. The headroom really stinks though. I am not really fond of the single engine performance. That would be an acceptable aircraft if I didn't want to take more people occasionally. If I drop to a solid four seater, I may drop back to a single.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Grumman GA-7 Cougar



He can rent that from his former partners in the Aztec. I think Bryon got his ME on that aircraft. Not enough seats was your lament, right Bryon?

Jim G

Indeed I can and did and am doing that now. Not enough seats and not a real single engine performer. I really need to talk the other partners into continuing our partnership in another plane, even though we may have to lay out a little more money.

FAA's preliminary finding: engine failure.

 

[bbchien]

Indeed I can and did and am doing that now. Not enough seats and not a real single engine performer. I really need to talk the other partners into continuing our partnership in another plane, even though we may have to lay out a little more money.

FAA's preliminary finding: engine failure.

For me it's not the seats, it's the Useable Load minus 5%. If you fly the Cougar 200 under gross, it is manageable/really climbable/ on one engine in summer at sea level. But you can't go far or carry much. In the Seneca II at 200 under gross, you have a 4 place aircraft that can fly away for 1000 nm. If you're physically big you need a Baron (4 pax, 250 undergross) or a Navajo 300 undergross (5%) and there you have a six passenger flyaway bird.

The key is how much undergross you need to create a twin with actual ability to fly away one. Look at that number and pick the twin that suits your pax/payload needs. I picked the smallest one that would do it for me/family, and it incidentally is the one for which KI is readily available in the fleet.