"Solution" for Inadvertent IMC?

[TMetzinger]

So what's the problem with a non instrument rated pilot staying on the ground?

Go read NTSB.gov and see how many "inadvertent flight into IMC" crashes happen each year.

I had a friend years ago that was not instrument rated but would routinely ask for flight following and continue in IMC conditions and tell the controllers he was in VFR conditions. His attitude was "I'm getting almost the same services from ATC as an IFR guy, so no big deal". He kept routinely pushing the limits because "he felt comfortable" with his abilities. I don't think I need to tell you how this story ends.

Guess my point here is if you want to have all weather capability then train for it, stay proficient and fly aircraft equipped to do the job. Otherwise, do everyone a favor and stay on the ground.

So, you think that pilots who aren't instrument rated shouldn't fly at night? I want to be sure I understand you correctly.

Your anecdotes of folks actively choosing to fly in IMC are not relevant, that is NOT "inadvertent" IMC. That's VFR-into-IMC, which is generally a more deliberate action on the part of the pilot.

 

[RotorAndWing]

So, you think that pilots who aren't instrument rated shouldn't fly at night? I want to be sure I understand you correctly.

Your anecdotes of folks actively choosing to fly in IMC are not relevant, that is NOT "inadvertent" IMC. That's VFR-into-IMC, which is generally a more deliberate action on the part of the pilot.

My "anecdotes" were to show how someone "felt comfortable" pushing the limits, just as previous posters want to "feel comfortable" in the case they enter "inadvertent IMC". Once again, it's about limitations. Sure, go practice IFR hooded flight, or have a CFII take you up in actual conditions, but don't use that experience to further your limitation on night flight on questionable conditions.

Night flight for non instrument rated pilots needs planning and understanding the situation at hand, or risk management. And sometimes that risk management means canceling and staying on the ground.

 

[TMetzinger]

I agree, but we're still talking past each other - you can't eliminate risk of inadvertent IMC at night, because you may not see that one little cloud in an otherwise clear sky until your strobes light it up from the inside. That's the residual risk after doing all your other risk management activities.

A good pilot will have thought about the residual risk he's accepted when flying, and have played the "what if" game and be ready to deal with it.

 

[dmccormack]

So, you think that pilots who aren't instrument rated shouldn't fly at night? I want to be sure I understand you correctly.

Your anecdotes of folks actively choosing to fly in IMC are not relevant, that is NOT "inadvertent" IMC. That's VFR-into-IMC, which is generally a more deliberate action on the part of the pilot.

If prudence reigns, those that want to fly SEL outside the vicinity of an airport should seriously consider an Instrument Rating.

They should also seriously consider a twin.

 

[TMetzinger]

Ah, but should prudence reign, or should freedom reign?

 

[jesse]

I've done plenty of night cross country as a VFR pilot--maybe I was just lucky--but I never had an inadvertent entry into IMC. I did manage to pick up ice in VMC at night once though.

 

[KennyFlys]

There are some serious lessons to be learned from those who fly into IMC. Some, you learn only from an NTSB report. Others you can learn from are nothing more than lucky. I was one of the lucky ones. Considering the links I set up from the start, I became very close to the former statistic.

From 609 Mandate to Suspension to 709 to... a Pilot Again!

As a follow up, a couple months after I wrote this I received my CFI ticket. I picked up a lot of good habits and have tried to pass them on. I've seen some bad habits and obviously will not pass them on. Should I observe the student forming a bad habit then I would explain why something should not be done; the potential consequences. I learned a lot during the first hundred hours of providing instruction. Nearly three hundred have passed and the curve continues only upward.

Having just finished the II, that curve has all the more incentive to remain upward. I'll keep padding that experience with more training and more learning to become a better instructor as well as pilot. The number of resources out there can be overwhelming and this board helps contribute as its members share newly discovered resources. Take advantage of them.

As a result of my experience, I've come to believe three hours under the hood during primary training is not enough. Nor is three hours at night. This is particularly true if the new private pilot does not plan to move immediately into instrument training. I'll combine night flight with hood time to give a more realistic experience of what some night flight will be like. When possible, we'll make a flight into IMC. Though lately, this area seems more like the Phoenix Valley than Central Texas.

I'm struggling with an issue right now and what's worse, it's being pushed by the guy who signs the paychecks. I'm hoping someone with more pull gets the issue corrected before something goes wrong. It's not a pure safety issue but it is a horrible procedural issue. At some point, I'll write a post seeking advice on how to handle it but not just yet.

As for my thought these days on that August night in 1986... I have no business being alive. I continued past every link and set up a scenario that could have very well killed myself and my family. I didn't. But, it wasn't due to skill, experience nor common sense. It certainly wasn't due to Aeronautical Decision Making (ADM). There must be a reason it's placed before aerodynamics and aircraft systems in the Jeppensen manual.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've done plenty of night cross country as a VFR pilot--maybe I was just lucky--but I never had an inadvertent entry into IMC. I did manage to pick up ice in VMC at night once though.

Hmmm. Care to tell us how you pick up ice without entering IMC? There's only one way I can think of, and very few planes survive it...

Frankly, I think both sides of this thread are off. Being comfortable in IMC is good, AND avoiding it is good. I don't see the purpose for this argument.

However, Felix, I've gotta go against you on this one if it's a one-or-the-other situation. The guy who decides that even that scattered (or even few!) layer at night is too much risk and stays on the ground lives, every single time. The guy who says "I got this pilot certificate to USE it, and I'm gonna make it home tonight!" and thinks he is comfortable in IMC has a much lower chance.

Comfortable in IMC is fine, but unless you've planned the flight from an IFR perspective, you may just be comfortable right into the side of a mountain, or a tower.

Frankly, now that I'm "older and wiser" I think that night VFR for non-IR pilots is kind of scary. "But I live in Iowa," you say. Iowa has some HUGE towers... Do you know exactly where they are? If there just happens to be one cloud on a moonless night that you don't see, and said tower is in the middle of it... Well, sucks to be you. "But I live in Wisconsin," you say. Even Wisconsin has enough terrain to kill you. In fact, there's one airport that I've been to a few times that really drives this opinion home for me - It's somewhat out in the boonies, very few lights around, but it's down on the Wisconsin River and has some pretty good-sized bluffs around it. Without some good moonlight and some experience with that particular field, a night VFR takeoff can be VERY dangerous. I think that an IFR pilot should use the Obstacle Departure Procedure, even VFR, at night. I also wish that VFR pilots would be trained in how to use and safely execute an ODP, and keep a set of current plates with them for night flying. Actually, it'd be even better if ODP's were published in the A/FD so VFR pilots would already have them.

 

[steingar]

Must disagree, violently. There is nothing in the midwest past about 2K feet, MEA's on your chart will tell you if I'm wrong, and most public-use airports are set up so you can safely take off in a normal aircraft. If you have lights on the ground or moon and stars you can fly very safely. An overcast can be problematic, but there are numerous weather sources that should be reliably able to get you the bases, no more reason to "inadvertently" fly into a cloud at night than during the day. Night flying is great, smooth air and little traffic. One just needs the same precautions one would take with any flight.

 

[gprellwitz]

Hmmm. Care to tell us how you pick up ice without entering IMC? There's only one way I can think of, and very few planes survive it...

I've done it flying back from FL near IKK. There was enough moisture in the air that it started to accrete on the wings just a bit at around 4500'. Nothing that was going to cause us any problems, but we descended anyway to get out of it. We were definitely VFR at the time.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've done it flying back from FL near IKK. There was enough moisture in the air that it started to accrete on the wings just a bit at around 4500'. Nothing that was going to cause us any problems, but we descended anyway to get out of it. We were definitely VFR at the time.

AAAAAArgh! Don't let the FAA hear you, or they'll use it as "evidence" to back up that god-awful definition of "known icing conditions" that they amended to include "high humidity" a year or two ago!

And were you getting moisture, or ice? What was the OAT?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Must disagree, violently. There is nothing in the midwest past about 2K feet, MEA's on your chart will tell you if I'm wrong,

Look about halfway between Ames and Des Moines, Iowa. Towers to 3,000 MSL (Okay, 2996, but there's probably 4 feet between your static port and your landing gear). Right near my home drome, 2549 feet. I don't know what else is out there, these are just the ones I've flown past recently. Sure, there are wide open spaces, but you can't assume EVERYTHING is wide open.

and most public-use airports are set up so you can safely take off in a normal aircraft.

Most. Not all.

If you have lights on the ground or moon and stars you can fly very safely.

If.

An overcast can be problematic, but there are numerous weather sources that should be reliably able to get you the bases, no more reason to "inadvertently" fly into a cloud at night than during the day.

Have you ever seen clouds in between airports? Those don't get reported... I agree that if everything goes right, you are correct - But since when is safety defined as planning for when everything goes right?

Night flying is great, smooth air and little traffic. One just needs the same precautions one would take with any flight.

I agree that night flying is great, about 1/4 of my total flight time is at night, and I love it - But to say you only need the "same precautions" as with any flight is foolish. 99 times out of 100, it'll work out for you, but that 100th time is really gonna hurt.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I agree that night flying is great, about 1/4 of my total flight time is at night, and I love it -

Glancing at my logbook today I have 7,656 hours at night, but who's counting?

 

[gismo]

Hmmm. Care to tell us how you pick up ice without entering IMC? There's only one way I can think of, and very few planes survive it...

FZL (BTDT).

Frankly, I think both sides of this thread are off. Being comfortable in IMC is good, AND avoiding it is good. I don't see the purpose for this argument.

However, Felix, I've gotta go against you on this one if it's a one-or-the-other situation. The guy who decides that even that scattered (or even few!) layer at night is too much risk and stays on the ground lives, every single time. The guy who says "I got this pilot certificate to USE it, and I'm gonna make it home tonight!" and thinks he is comfortable in IMC has a much lower chance.

Comfortable in IMC is fine, but unless you've planned the flight from an IFR perspective, you may just be comfortable right into the side of a mountain, or a tower.

Frankly, now that I'm "older and wiser" I think that night VFR for non-IR pilots is kind of scary. "But I live in Iowa," you say. Iowa has some HUGE towers... Do you know exactly where they are? If there just happens to be one cloud on a moonless night that you don't see, and said tower is in the middle of it... Well, sucks to be you. "But I live in Wisconsin," you say. Even Wisconsin has enough terrain to kill you. In fact, there's one airport that I've been to a few times that really drives this opinion home for me - It's somewhat out in the boonies, very few lights around, but it's down on the Wisconsin River and has some pretty good-sized bluffs around it. Without some good moonlight and some experience with that particular field, a night VFR takeoff can be VERY dangerous. I think that an IFR pilot should use the Obstacle Departure Procedure, even VFR, at night. I also wish that VFR pilots would be trained in how to use and safely execute an ODP, and keep a set of current plates with them for night flying. Actually, it'd be even better if ODP's were published in the A/FD so VFR pilots would already have them.

I did a fair amount of night VFR before I became instrument rated and never had a VFR into IMC event at night (I did have one VFR into IMC event in the daytime very early on). Since becoming instrument rated I have had two inadvertent IMC penetrations flying under VFR at night which I find amazing considering that post IR I operate 90+% of my x/c flights under IFR day or night. I attibute this to the fact that before becoming instrument rated I was pretty conservative about embarking on a night flight weather wise. I basically would only go if both the forecast and reported weather along the route was at least 5000 and 10 with even tighter limits if the distance was more than 100 nm (longer distances provide more opportunities for the weather to change for the worse). I still believe that if you recognize the need for better weather at night and remain very conservative, you can reduce the chances of an inadvertent IMC encounter to daytime probabilities. And I think that by actually practicing (simulated) instrument flight every few months your chances of sucessfully escaping the IMC are acceptably high. IMO one of the biggest reasons that so many non-IR (or non-IR-current) VFR into IMC encounters end up tragically is because the ability to operate on the gauges learned as part of the PP training fades quickly.

BTW, this DOES NOT mean I condone deliberate VFR in IMC or even low vis VFR by any pilot IR or not.

 

[dmccormack]

Ah, but should prudence reign, or should freedom reign?

Aay, there's the rub!

The quandary of life, is it not?

 

[sba55]

However, Felix, I've gotta go against you on this one if it's a one-or-the-other situation. The guy who decides that even that scattered (or even few!) layer at night is too much risk and stays on the ground lives, every single time. The guy who says "I got this pilot certificate to USE it, and I'm gonna make it home tonight!" and thinks he is comfortable in IMC has a much lower chance.

Comfortable in IMC is fine, but unless you've planned the flight from an IFR perspective, you may just be comfortable right into the side of a mountain, or a tower.

100% agreed, but it's not that simple. Of course someone who stays on the ground will be safer. That's not why pilots get their certificate, though.

All I'm talking about is being comfortable in IMC, even if you're VFR only. Obviously, that doesn't mean that you should go into IMC intentionally if you're VFR. It also doesn't mean that you should launch if you know you're going to be in IMC VFR.

But, given that one cannot absolutely exclude the possibility of inadvertently getting into IMC as a VFR pilot, one should be prepared for that situation.

-Felix

 

[jesse]

Hmmm. Care to tell us how you pick up ice without entering IMC? There's only one way I can think of, and very few planes survive it...

Damned if I know. Somehow there was enough moisture in the air and it happened.

We were *completely* VFR with good visiblity. At least 15 miles. I had no idea that we were taking on ice until I saw the indicated airspeed start dropping while the RPM / altitude / ground speed remained constant. There was no visible 'rain' or drops hitting the airplane. I held a flashlight up to the canopy at that point and could see that ice was forming but you'd never know without holding a light up to the canopy.

The DA-20 has no pitot heat. I diverted to the nearest airport and came in fast as I wasn't sure how much ice I had or how a DA-20 would react to ice. The airspeed indicator was worthless so I had no idea how much 'ice drag' I had. I stayed fast until I was directly over the runway and then I did a beautiful nose high slip at about 1' AGL down the runway until I was slow enough to land. This seemed like the safest option to me--stay fast until I'm at an altitude where falling out of the sky won't matter--and then slip at that altitude to drop ditch excess energy. Only used about 2000 ft of runway and I was at least 40 knots too fast over the numbers (based on GPS ground speed and RPM setting).

Once we got out of the airplane and looked at it, we defiantly had ice, not a lot but approx 1/4 inch on the leading edge canopy and tail.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Getting enough training (no matter how long it takes, regardless of ones pilot rating) to recognize and adhere to the need to fly the instruments while in IMC is fundamental to being a safe pilot. Only occasional, calculated and entirely voluntary glances outside to check for VMC should be part of this "comfort zone".

The FAA's Private Pilot requirement of 3 hours under the hood is usually enough to reach a "survivable" level of skill to do very basic IFR survival maneuvers, which is its intent. Those minimal skills are however, highly perishable and must be reconfirmed competent on a regular basis to eliminate the uncertainty that can undermine a pilot's true skills. An hour per year under the hood as stipulated under the old Wings Program is a good minimum place to start.

 

[gprellwitz]

AAAAAArgh! Don't let the FAA hear you, or they'll use it as "evidence" to back up that god-awful definition of "known icing conditions" that they amended to include "high humidity" a year or two ago!

And were you getting moisture, or ice? What was the OAT?

It was trace ice on the leading edge. OAT was pretty close to 0, IIRC. Leslie may remember.