Sobering FAAST Seminar

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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3Green
This looks interesting; I can't make it due to family in town, though. Certainly sounds sobering (walking around an aircraft salvage/boneyard and discussing what brought specific aircraft to this place), but WAY more interesting than a conference room with slides and watered down coffee.

"Air Salvage of Dallas presents the Second Annual LEGAL but FATAL Seminar series."

Topic: An in depth discussion of three to four Aircraft Accidents from start to finish in the actual bone yard.

On Saturday, June 18, 2011 at 9:00 AM
Location:
Air Salvage of Dallas, Lancaster TX.
1361 Ferris Rd.
Lancaster, TX 75146

Select Number:
SW0539028

Description:

Mr. Michael Zamani FAASTeam Program Manager ( Airworthiness ) will give a short presentation on fatigue in Aviation before we enter the bone yard. Mr. Joe Murphy FAASTeam Program Manager ( Operations ) & Mr. Lucky Louque FAASTeam Representative & Aviation Maintenance Technician of the year award will discuss three to four accidents.

To view further details and registration information for this seminar, click here.

The sponsor for this seminar is: FAASTeam

The following credit(s) are available for the WINGS/AMT Programs:

Basic Knowledge 3 1.00
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Let'sgoflying! said:
Full, already.
Pretty serious about photos, wonder why?
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While the subject aircraft are no longer under investigation, they are in the same secured location as aircraft that still are. ASOD is one of the places that crashed birds are taken to, directly from the scene.


The bird you are studying might be ok to shoot but in the background might be the carcass of the next high profile accident. Rather than risk leaked photos, the prudent thing from their standpoint is a blanket ban

On a side note, not a bad place to pick up parts.
 
most wrecks are on the evening news long before the salvage joints get them, doesn't make sense yet.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
most wrecks are on the evening news long before the salvage joints get them, doesn't make sense yet.
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You don't see pictures of gray matter on the panel in those. For example.

I'm speculating that the camera ban is a condition of them being a secured site for NTSB use
 
Note to self: Tell spouse I'm going out drinking with the guys to a couple of strip joints. Much less damaging to flying career than saying I'm attending a "Legal but Fatal" flying seminar. :hairraise:
 
wow, already over 100 of the 140 seats gone. If'n it was July I mighta tried to make it.
 
I'm going. Bringing my father in law, who is visiting from Seattle that week, as a guest. He's an ex-Boeing employee (tooler) and shade tree auto mechanic with an aviation interest. He'll love visiting an airplane wrecking yard.
 
TangoWhiskey,

Thanks for posting this information. I just signed up for the last remaining seat and will be there at 9AM June 18.

Doc
 
Is the fatigue presentation on Pilot Fatigue or Metal Fatigue? Only the latter would hold my interest...:wink2:
 
I enjoyed very much meeting Andrew, Troy and Spike. I thought that the event was very much worth the time spent. I hope I don't end up having to ride in an EMS helicopter.

To summarize for those not there, the theme was "Legal but Fatal." All three of the wreckages we viewed occurred in spite of the fact that there were no regs violated in either pilot or aircraft certification or operation.

Wreck one: A Rockwell with an IO540D engine. The D model engine has a very bad mag design. The mags failed in VFR conditions at night resulting in the passengers fatality and the pilot although surviving, is supposed to be really messed up. If you have or fly one of these airplanes, find a COMPTETENT facility to properly service the mags every 500 hours or two years I think he said. I looked at the mag and it is a VERY STRANGE design. One four lab cam with two sets of points on a common shaft with gears driving the secondary portions of the two mags. It is NOT two mags as seen on many planes. It has a single drive, single set of points with only redundancy apparantly being the caps, wires and rotors. This is what I surmised from simply looking at it. I missed the fellows explanation of the unit.

Wreck two: A relatively new LSA aircraft on a training flight. During a stall, control cables to the rear section were jammed due to a flashlight left in the rear of the fuselage during an annual. Upon pitch up, the flashlight fell into place and jammed the controls. Student pilot and instructor were both fatally injured. This was a program funded to encourage young people to get involved in aviation. The media put out so much information that program was dissolved.

Wreck three: A helicopter in perfect condition with a qualified IR rated pilot with no recent instrument experience or practice. He was on an EMS mission out over the Gulf of Mexico just past Padre Island. Once he got over the water in the dark he got into light IMC and aborted the mission, but with no reference over the water, went into the drink inverted.

Very sobering.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
I enjoyed very much meeting Andrew, Troy and Spike. I thought that the event was very much worth the time spent. I hope I don't end up having to ride in an EMS helicopter.

To summarize for those not there, the theme was "Legal but Fatal." All three of the wreckages we viewed occurred in spite of the fact that there were no regs violated in either pilot or aircraft certification or operation.

Wreck one: A Rockwell with an IO540D engine. The D model engine has a very bad mag design. The mags failed in VFR conditions at night resulting in the passengers fatality and the pilot although surviving, is supposed to be really messed up. If you have or fly one of these airplanes, find a COMPTETENT facility to properly service the mags every 500 hours or two years I think he said. I looked at the mag and it is a VERY STRANGE design. One four lab cam with two sets of points on a common shaft with gears driving the secondary portions of the two mags. It is NOT two mags as seen on many planes. It has a single drive, single set of points with only redundancy apparantly being the caps, wires and rotors. This is what I surmised from simply looking at it. I missed the fellows explanation of the unit.

Wreck two: A relatively new LSA aircraft on a training flight. During a stall, control cables to the rear section were jammed due to a flashlight left in the rear of the fuselage during an annual. Upon pitch up, the flashlight fell into place and jammed the controls. Student pilot and instructor were both fatally injured. This was a program funded to encourage young people to get involved in aviation. The media put out so much information that program was dissolved.

Wreck three: A helicopter in perfect condition with a qualified IR rated pilot with no recent instrument experience or practice. He was on an EMS mission out over the Gulf of Mexico just past Padre Island. Once he got over the water in the dark he got into light IMC and aborted the mission, but with no reference over the water, went into the drink inverted.

Very sobering.

Doc
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Very nice summary Doc. As far as the Mags go, i think he said 500 hours or 5 years. I might have heard wrong though.

Troy, Spike? Whatd you guys hear?
 
ajstoner21 said:
Very nice summary Doc. As far as the Mags go, i think he said 500 hours or 5 years. I might have heard wrong though.

Troy, Spike? Whatd you guys hear?
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You got it. Five and five.

The engine designations to watch are any whose model number end with the letter D. I was confused by the fact that Lucky went back and forth mentioning Lycoming and Continental interchangably. Does the issue, and D designation, apply to both manufacturers, or just one?

The LSA had torque tubes to the rear, not cables.


The helicopter didn't have the patient on board yet, thankfully. A flight nurse and pilot died. I was shocked at the level of damage, and amount of wreckage recovered, considering they hit water. Water is hard from 1000 feet.

The copter pilot had, if I recall, 0.7 and 0.5 hours IR time in two flights several years prior. How does someone get hired to fly night EMS without current instrument experience?

The seminar was, also, tastefully done, with somber respect.

They DID allow photos, since we did not enter areas with wreckage pertaining to accidents under litigation.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
Thanks for the clarification on the mag time.

I don't think that he meant ANY engine that ended with a D, but specifically an IO540 and maybe also an O540 ending in a D. I don't think that he meant other engine sizes ending with a D. This would be worth clarification to benefit anyone who might come across thread for information in the future.

Again, it was great meeting Andrew, Spike and Troy. We are lucky to have such good guys posting on here.

Doc
 
The copter pilot had, if I recall, 0.7 and 0.5 hours IR time in two flights several years prior. How does someone get hired to fly night EMS without current instrument experience?
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Quite a few Ems programs are VFR. Accident scenes don't have approaches to them. Most hospital pads don't either.

Hermann LifeFlight has been around since the 70's and they are big, and VFR. And have an excellent safety record.
 
Doggtyred said:
Quite a few Ems programs are VFR. Accident scenes don't have approaches to them. Most hospital pads don't either.

Hermann LifeFlight has been around since the 70's and they are big, and VFR. And have an excellent safety record.
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A lot of what they talked about before the tour of the bone-yard, was stress and fatigue. Such stress mentioned was physical stress, emotional stress, and physiological stress.

They mentioned the "get-there-itis" trying to save the patient, and with stress, the pilots potentially throws their standards out the window, and ADM falls apart. The pilot ends up killing everyone, to save the patient. Departing in VFR or continuing into marginal VFR.

Another thing mentioned, was the area the pilot was flying was a "black hole". No lights or anything. So, without any lights as a reference, in VFR weather, he could have been in loggable instrument conditions, which was a contributing factor to the mentioned accident.


(Not arguing anything. Just mentioning what was said today)
 
ajstoner21 said:
A lot of what they talked about before the tour of the bone-yard, was stress and fatigue. Such stress mentioned was physical stress, emotional stress, and physiological stress.

They mentioned the "get-there-itis" trying to save the patient, and with stress, the pilots potentially throws their standards out the window, and ADM falls apart. The pilot ends up killing everyone, to save the patient. Departing in VFR or continuing into marginal VFR.

Another thing mentioned, was the area the pilot was flying was a "black hole". No lights or anything. So, without any lights as a reference, in VFR weather, he could have been in loggable instrument conditions, which was a contributing factor to the mentioned accident.


(Not arguing anything. Just mentioning what was said today)
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Exactly. And night VMC can turn into IMC (can't see the clouds coming) or black hole approaches where instrument flying skills become life savers. I understand EMS ops are VFR, but I still think hiring instrument current and capable pilots and equipment would help improve their safety record. It's a challenging environment they operate in.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Thanks for the clarification on the mag time.

I don't think that he meant ANY engine that ended with a D, but specifically an IO540 and maybe also an O540 ending in a D. I don't think that he meant other engine sizes ending with a D. This would be worth clarification to benefit anyone who might come across thread for information in the future.

Again, it was great meeting Andrew, Spike and Troy. We are lucky to have such good guys posting on here.

Doc
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The affected engines are all Lycomings, the mags were are the siamesed Bendix mags. They are not just on 540s; there are also a number of IO360s as well.

Those with a long PoA memory will recall our own beloved Lance Flynn suffering a failure of his siamesed mags in his 201; in typical Lance fashion, he found a runway.

---

Great program, though I could have done without the FAA guy reading the PowerPont slides to us... :D

Good to meet you Doc and AJ, and glad you could make it, T-Roy.
 
A lot of Cardinals have the dual Bendix mags. See the CFO Website for more details. Seems many have swapped out their -D engines for non -D engines, for that very reason. A few Cardinals have made off-field landings because of the mags.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Wreck one: A Rockwell with an IO540D engine. The D model engine has a very bad mag design. The mags failed in VFR conditions at night resulting in the passengers fatality and the pilot although surviving, is supposed to be really messed up. If you have or fly one of these airplanes, find a COMPTETENT facility to properly service the mags every 500 hours or two years I think he said. I looked at the mag and it is a VERY STRANGE design. One four lab cam with two sets of points on a common shaft with gears driving the secondary portions of the two mags. It is NOT two mags as seen on many planes. It has a single drive, single set of points with only redundancy apparantly being the caps, wires and rotors. This is what I surmised from simply looking at it. I missed the fellows explanation of the unit.
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That sounds a lot like the Lycoming IO360 D engines used originally in the Cardinal RG. A single mag drive, if it fails you have complete loss of power. But you can substitute a non-D engine if you like, and if I understand correctly, both the D and non-D engines were part of the original type certificate. (So why did Cessna ship them with D engines?)

And fortunately, my plane has the non-D engine. The previous owner put it in just before he sold it to me.
 
The flashlight crash reminds me of a similar NTSB report. In that case a handheld radio fell into a joystick hole in the floorboard and jammed the controls. Luckily that one occurred during takeoff and the airplane (a glider) was only a few feet off the ground. The pilot disconnected the tow and and made an ugly landing but survived.

Be careful with loose stuff in the cockpit. I tie my kneeboard to my flashlight so that if I drop it I can retrieve it. Wouldn't want that thing to roll behind the pedals and gum things up.
 
I was supposed to be there, but didn't feel well so had to back out at the last minute. I went last year and it was very interesting. Wish they would have kept it to March. June too hot to be standing in the boneyard!
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Exactly. And night VMC can turn into IMC (can't see the clouds coming) or black hole approaches where instrument flying skills become life savers. I understand EMS ops are VFR, but I still think hiring instrument current and capable pilots and equipment would help improve their safety record. It's a challenging environment they operate in.
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I understand the sentiment you are imparting. But these guys do full duty--hour schedules in VFR aircraft. How do you propose they maintain currency?

The vast majority are ex military and have some of the best initial instrument training in the world.

The aforementioned program I spoke of has NEVER had a weather related crash. The pilot gives a thumbs up or down based on weather alone. No patient info given. I've met and ground-transported many a crew who flew out and weather closed in around them. The area here routinely has a 1-2 degree split between temp and dew point.

No IFR. No NVG until recently. Just empowering the pilots, insulating them from medical, revenue (non-profit) or executive decision-making processes.

And every once in a while some other program screws the pooch and burns in inappropriately, validating their (Herm's) long held rules.

A few years ago PHI med 6 in the Houston market did just that. Black hole over the forest with decreasing ceilings. On a mission that Hermann had accepted and then aborted enroute due to weather closing in.

Friends died that night. Along with the patient.

The one fatal Hermann crash was a TT strap letting go on the rotor head. Unprecedented failure that grounded the whole fleet. And resulted in an AD and part life limits. Friends died that day too.
 
ebacon said:
The flashlight crash reminds me of a similar NTSB report. In that case a handheld radio fell into a joystick hole in the floorboard and jammed the controls. Luckily that one occurred during takeoff and the airplane (a glider) was only a few feet off the ground. The pilot disconnected the tow and and made an ugly landing but survived.

Be careful with loose stuff in the cockpit. I tie my kneeboard to my flashlight so that if I drop it I can retrieve it. Wouldn't want that thing to roll behind the pedals and gum things up.
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I have not beeen to the airport since I left the seminar. There are a few loose items behind the seat of my airplane. I don't see how they could find their way out of that area, but this kid ain't takin' no chances! That stuff will get removed first thing when I get there next time.

Doc
 
Doggtyred said:
I understand the sentiment you are imparting. But these guys do full duty--hour schedules in VFR aircraft. How do you propose they maintain currency?

The vast majority are ex military and have some of the best initial instrument training in the world.

The aforementioned program I spoke of has NEVER had a weather related crash. The pilot gives a thumbs up or down based on weather alone. No patient info given. I've met and ground-transported many a crew who flew out and weather closed in around them. The area here routinely has a 1-2 degree split between temp and dew point.

No IFR. No NVG until recently. Just empowering the pilots, insulating them from medical, revenue (non-profit) or executive decision-making processes.

And every once in a while some other program screws the pooch and burns in inappropriately, validating their (Herm's) long held rules.

A few years ago PHI med 6 in the Houston market did just that. Black hole over the forest with decreasing ceilings. On a mission that Hermann had accepted and then aborted enroute due to weather closing in.

Friends died that night. Along with the patient.

The one fatal Hermann crash was a TT strap letting go on the rotor head. Unprecedented failure that grounded the whole fleet. And resulted in an AD and part life limits. Friends died that day too.
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Dont' think that I am arguing any of your points because I'm not. I just want to make clear the point they were making about the EMS helicopter crash. The point was not DIRECTLY the issue of flying into IMC, although it was something that should be thought about, rather the point was the "Get there itis" in the brains of the EMS flyers.

In fact, when we were standing next to this wreckage and he explained the case, I personally asked if these were low time pilots. He and several others, vehemently stressed that these are HIGH TIME pilots. In this particular accident, the person had been VERY well instrument trained, but had only flown two brief periods on instruments in the last number of years.

Yes, military trained pilots receive very good instrument training, but "use it or lose it." In this case, he had not used it.

For those of you second guessing what we are posting here regarding the seminar, it is a few paragraphs of summary of a two hour event. Had you been there I think you would understand better the points that were made and accept the information for its face value and intent.

Dogg, please don't take any offense and understand that I am merely repeating as paraphrase what the speaker said. He was so insistent about EMS pilots having "Get There itis" that he said if he were in an accident and they were going to transport him with EMS helicopter service that he would "put up a hell of a fight."

AGAIN, I am not being argumentative, I'm just trying to relay the points and the sentiments of the speakers.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
Dont' think that I am arguing any of your points because I'm not. I just want to make clear the point they were making about the EMS helicopter crash. The point was not DIRECTLY the issue of flying into IMC, although it was something that should be thought about, rather the point was the "Get there itis" in the brains of the EMS flyers.

In fact, when we were standing next to this wreckage and he explained the case, I personally asked if these were low time pilots. He and several others, vehemently stressed that these are HIGH TIME pilots. In this particular accident, the person had been VERY well instrument trained, but had only flown two brief periods on instruments in the last number of years.

Yes, military trained pilots receive very good instrument training, but "use it or lose it." In this case, he had not used it.

For those of you second guessing what we are posting here regarding the seminar, it is a few paragraphs of summary of a two hour event. Had you been there I think you would understand better the points that were made and accept the information for its face value and intent.

Dogg, please don't take any offense and understand that I am merely repeating as paraphrase what the speaker said. He was so insistent about EMS pilots having "Get There itis" that he said if he were in an accident and they were going to transport him with EMS helicopter service that he would "put up a hell of a fight."

AGAIN, I am not being argumentative, I'm just trying to relay the points and the sentiments of the speakers.

Doc
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I get what you are saying. I get you aren't being argumentative.

I'm basically giving good press to an outfit that has found a way to successfully avoid get-there-itis.

It's all good.
 
Yes, and the EMS people DESERVE lots of credit for their dedication. I don't think anyone, including Lucky was taking any of that away from them.

Another reason I believe what you are saying is that about 10 years or so ago, my office was on the 11th floor of a building next to Highway 75 in Richardson, Texas. There was a serious accident on this buisy freeway and an EMS helicopter landed and loaded up the patient. They took lots of time securing the patient and lots of time spinning up and slowly climbing and turning toward the hospital. There was no display of "Get There itis" in that incident.

By the same token, a hospital, a good sized one, was within a mile through the empty back streets. Why did they not simply use ground transport?

I'm sure that there are a lot of things involved here that are not apparent to the laymen like myself.


One other issue about the seminar and I'll shut up:

My wifes twin sister worked for the FAA for a number of years and then later for the NTSB. We had lunch with her and other family members an hour or two after the seminar. I asked her if she had ever heard of "Lucky." She said, "sure, he owns ASOD." Her take on Lucky was that he went out to the crash sites to gather up the wreckage and has probably seen and analyzed more accidents than any single person with the FAA or NTSB. Evidently he is EXTREMELY well thought of within these organizations.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
By the same token, a hospital, a good sized one, was within a mile through the empty back streets. Why did they not simply use ground transport?

I'm sure that there are a lot of things involved here that are not apparent to the laymen like myself.

Doc
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That 3 minute ride to the local hospital could be the worst choice if all.

Very very few major trauma centers in the state. Maybe 20. Hundreds of hospitals and ER's. Its about going to an appropriate destination. Going to the wrong place adds 1-3 hours to the trip to a trauma center. But the difference is docs, nurses and services experienced in trauma care and readily available.

Now, there have been many times I did a ground transport to a trauma center that others would have flown. I went by a simple rule: who could put the pt in the ER Trauma room quicker. If I could beat it by ground, I went. If I couldn't, I called the bird.
 
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Just a note to you guys that attended the event. I told my flight instructor about it yesterday, and it turns out he taught Lucky to fly many years ago. I hope he can make a pilot out of me that is as safety conscious as Lucky.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
I have not beeen to the airport since I left the seminar. There are a few loose items behind the seat of my airplane. I don't see how they could find their way out of that area, but this kid ain't takin' no chances! That stuff will get removed first thing when I get there next time.
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Yeah, this thread is reminding me that I wanted a little zippered canvas bag for the sundry stuff in the 182s seat-back pockets.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Just a note to you guys that attended the event. I told my flight instructor about it yesterday, and it turns out he taught Lucky to fly many years ago. I hope he can make a pilot out of me that is as safety conscious as Lucky.

Doc
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I just read this post, and thats funny! Small world!
 
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