So, what would you have done <g>

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
6,434
Location
Dallas, Texas
Display Name
Display name:
Dave Siciliano
A uhhhum good friend was flying his Baron into Rockford (RFD) recently on the ILS07 approach. Broke out about 900 feet high, checked in with tower and asked to land long for North American (FBO).

The runway is 10,000 feet long. Pilot intended to land at taxiway M about 3,000 feet down and turn right on angled taxiway G about another 3,000 feet down the runway (like a high speed taxiway in that its a 45 degree right). No other traffic on that runway.

Tower replies, No! Don't land long!

Pilot says, I would like to land near taxiway Mike and right on Gulf for North American.

Tower say: No! Don't land long.

So, what would you do in that situation?

Best,

Dave

Also posted on AvSig.
 
Once I get my ldg. clearance there is not much more discussion, the runway's mine. I guess what I would have done is to not try to be helpful.
 
I would not have discussed it. And I would have landed long. The runway's mine.
 
I wouldn't have told them I wanted to land long, I would have just done it.

I'm somewhat in the habit of landing long because at my home airport the FBO is on the far end of the runway that I normally land on, so I suppose I tend to land long unless I think about it. Bad Ted, no biscuit. :)
 
that's interesting. i wonder what their reason was. perhaps the runway was contaminated? or perhaps they've had an over run or two recently? or maybe they just wanted to tell you how to fly your airplane.
 
Well, my uhhummm friend probably didn't handle it as well as you would have. He's done this many times at that facility.

He slowed to slowest practical speed and put the plane right on the numbers as it stalled in; just let the plane coast-and coast-and coast until Alpha.
Turned off and the controller said: didn't think it would take that long to get in.

Pilot said that's why I asked to touch down near Mike and turn off a Golf.

Controller said: oh, I thought you wanted to touch down farther down and go to where North American used to be.
(That was quite some time ago).

Thought it was pretty clear what intentions were.

Best,

Dave
 
Your... umm... friend sounds like a class act. Which makes sense, being your friend and all. :)

That sort of confusion is why I would have just done it and not asked questions.
 
Well your friend 'asked' and was told no, next time tell your friend to not 'ask' do what he wants/needs to. After one gets the clearance unless it is a LAHSO the entire runway belongs to the you. If there is no one behind or waiting , you then don't need to be in a super hurry. If someone was waiting I would do my best to land and get out of the way as soon as safe and practicable.
 
For those not familiar with KRFD, Runway 7 is 10,000 feet long. The terminal diagram is appended.

Landing on the numbers and coasting 8000 feet to Alpha likely took a LONG 60 seconds. Landing at Mike and turning off at G would have been very very easy.

I think he was afraid that you would go beyond the LAHSO line depicted just prior to the 1/19 intersection.

I think in a very classy way, you taught him something, and without having to pick up the phone (the BEST way!!!).

If I were not pressed for time, I would have called tower and asked to speak to him. A good behavior for him would have been to issue a LAHSO clearance, A good behavior for you would have been to suggest a LAHSO (which they might not be able to do at that very moment). But, as the chart notes, the revision 27 Nov 09 notes, "CHANGES: LAHSO added" (see fine print at the VERY bottom).
 

Attachments

  • KRFD.pdf
    165.9 KB · Views: 26
Last edited:
Last year I went over to KRFD to do some night currency at a big runway and was landing 07. I'd land on the numbers and be off at the M taxiway. It is a big runway and quit the light show at night.
 
Thanks guys. There was practice instrument traffic on 19; so, as has been said, tower may have been concerned my uhhum friend would have to go around and wanted him down, but, it's a looooooog way to 19 from the 07 touchdown zone.

I feel he acted a bit childishly by landing on the numbers and just roooooooolling in, but there was no traffic behind him. He probably should have turn off to the left, taxied down on the taxiway and re-crossed the active at Golf. But I don't think he did any harm and if a lesson was learned; that was good.
Always trying to improve.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Thanks guys. There was practice instrument traffic on 19; so, as has been said, tower may have been concerned my uhhum friend would have to go around and wanted him down, but, it's a looooooog way to 19 from the 07 touchdown zone.

I feel he acted a bit childishly by landing on the numbers and just roooooooolling in, but there was no traffic behind him. He probably should have turn off to the left, taxied down on the taxiway and re-crossed the active at Golf. But I don't think he did any harm and if a lesson was learned; that was good.
Always trying to improve.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

Um, I suspect that "my friend" would have been real tempted to add enough power to keep the plane 5 ft in the air for most of the runway. Technically you're required to exit the runway at the first feasible taxiway but if your having "trouble" touching down you can legally pass a lot of exits.
 
Glad "your friend" made the effort, good pilots are hard to come by.

I'm so old I remember going to RFD to attend OSH!

EAA used to have their annual conventions there before they ended up at OSH. Rumor has it the mayor of RFD wanted more money from EAA than they were willing to pay so they moved on.
 
Last edited:
Geico266 said:
Glad "your friend" made the effort, good pilots are hard to come by.

I'm so old I remember going to RFD to attend OSH!

EAA used to have their annual conventions there before they ended up at OSH. Rumor has it the mayor of RFD wanted more money from EAA than they were willing to pay so they moved on.
Click to expand...
Now Rockford just has the largest WWII reenactment in the Midwest....it's the highlight of our reenacting season. :)
 
Weird stuff. Controllers don't have any more business making assumptions than do pilots.
They should either clear you to land, or tell you to go around. If there is some important reason why you should not touch down long, the time to mention that is when the clearance is given, right? As a request, perhaps?

Short answer: I'd have landed where I wanted to, as cleared.

But I kind of liked the more "spiteful" approach...:D
 
Last edited:
SteveinMichigan said:
Now Rockford just has the largest WWII reenactment in the Midwest....it's the highlight of our reenacting season. :)
Click to expand...
I have never heard of WW2 reenacting. I have been to many Civil War reenactments and had a great time. A couple of my friends are really into it, including actual participation. They travel in the summer going to many reenactments, they even went to Gettysburg and were in the movie that Ted Turner shot there about the battle.

So tell me more about the WW2 reenactments. If you want to start a new thread that is cool too.
 
smigaldi said:
I have never heard of WW2 reenacting. I have been to many Civil War reenactments and had a great time. A couple of my friends are really into it, including actual participation. They travel in the summer going to many reenactments, they even went to Gettysburg and were in the movie that Ted Turner shot there about the battle.

So tell me more about the WW2 reenactments. If you want to start a new thread that is cool too.
Click to expand...
I will start a new thread in the Hangar Talk forum....
 
Whether you "own" the runway or not, a controller's instruction is still an ATC instruction, and unless there's a safety issue, or you are so unskilled that you can't follow it, you obey it, because the controller probably knows something you don't. So, I would have landed in the normal touchdown zone and turned off at the first practical taxiway (probably Mike, maybe Kilo -- for those unfamiliar, see the airport diagram), just like it says in AIM 4-3-20. Once I got on Ground, I would have asked why the requirement not to land long, and after the same discussion as Dave's "friend" had, would have accepted the controller's apology as gracefully as possible, knowing that the controller will remember this and will do his/her best to pay off that debt of gratitude sometime in the future when I really need that help.

As for landing on the numbers and rolling all the way to Alpha, I would expect the controller to remember that discourtesy, too, and treat me accordingly the next time I'm there -- and that's why I wouldn't do that. Consider it a corollary of the line about "in a land where 'an eye for an eye' is law, everyone ends up blind."
 
Dave Siciliano said:
A uhhhum good friend was flying his Baron into Rockford (RFD) recently on the ILS07 approach. Broke out about 900 feet high, checked in with tower and asked to land long for North American (FBO).

The runway is 10,000 feet long. Pilot intended to land at taxiway M about 3,000 feet down and turn right on angled taxiway G about another 3,000 feet down the runway (like a high speed taxiway in that its a 45 degree right). No other traffic on that runway.

Tower replies, No! Don't land long!

Pilot says, I would like to land near taxiway Mike and right on Gulf for North American.

Tower say: No! Don't land long.

So, what would you do in that situation?
Click to expand...

In what role?

Your story seems incomplete. You say your good friend checked in with the tower and asked to land long for North American. The tower responded with, "No! Don't land long!" Was that the full response? No landing clearance was issued?

This is essentially a request that can't be denied. Refusing it is a de facto LAHSO operation and that requires VFR conditions.

Had I been flying your good friend's Baron I wouldn't have requested to land long, I'd have just done it.
 
bbchien said:
For those not familiar with KRFD, Runway 7 is 10,000 feet long. The terminal diagram is appended.

Landing on the numbers and coasting 8000 feet to Alpha likely took a LONG 60 seconds. Landing at Mike and turning off at G would have been very very easy.

I think he was afraid that you would go beyond the LAHSO line depicted just prior to the 1/19 intersection.
Click to expand...

Afraid of what? Conflict with traffic using that runway?
 
Last edited:
Geico266 said:
Glad "your friend" made the effort, good pilots are hard to come by.

I'm so old I remember going to RFD to attend OSH!

EAA used to have their annual conventions there before they ended up at OSH. Rumor has it the mayor of RFD wanted more money from EAA than they were willing to pay so they moved on.
Click to expand...

Actually, the EAA convention was held at OSH before they ended up at RFD.:yes:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top