So what would you do? Long taxi from hold short line

Sac Arrow

Sac Arrow

Touchdown! Greaser!
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I was going to put this in the ASRS thread but it probably deserves a separate topic. And no, I didn't mess up or have a problem.

So here's an interesting quandry....

In the photo, A depicts the hold short line for Runway 17 (022, Columbia). B depicts the point of normal takeoff. C depicts a CDF apron (white concrete feature) where they keep some fire bombers.

As you can see, the hold short line is a fair distance away from the departure end, at least if you wanted to use the whole length of the runway. It can potentially take a long enough time between crossing the line and takeoff such that the traffic situation could change, and you are unable to take off (e.g. that J3 Cub with no radio that you didn't see on downwind, is now on final.)

Let's say someone pops out of nowhere and you've crossed the hold short line. You aren't supposed to enter the CDF apron (there is the sign that says stay out) and you probably couldn't do it anyway because it's lined up with S2's and OV10's. What would you do?

(BTW there is no painted hold short line between the CDF apron and the taxiway/runway.)
 
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As you taxi out and pass point A a J3 cub could easily land over you as he isn't aiming for point B. they're going for the displaced threshold and that puts them well above you.

No issue and stay off the bomber ramp.
 
While there is a displaced threshold for landing on 17, the entire length beginning at your red B is marked as usable for takeoff on 17 by the white "-> -> ->" arrows. So, from B, you taxi onto the runway, turn right, cob the power, and takeoff -- no need to taxi all the way up to the displaced landing threshold. See the AIM Section 2-3-3h2 and Figure 2-3-5.

If you do want to use the full length from the hold short at your red A, you taxi on the marked taxiway. Yes, it's possible that you might fail to see that no-radio Cub, but honestly, if that Cub is aiming to land beyond the displaced threshold (as s/he should), safety will not be compromised to any significant degree by your presence on the taxiway north of the hold short/displaced threshold.

However, if it appeared the Cub was really going to land on top of you on the taxiway or hit short and cartwheel onto the taxiway or something like that, nobody is going to criticize you for taxiing off the taxiway onto the CDF ramp to get out of the way.
 
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Ron Levy said:
While there is a displaced threshold for landing on 17, the entire length beginning at your red B is marked as usable for takeoff on 17 by the white "-> -> ->" arrows. So, you taxi onto the runway, turn right, cob the power, and takeoff -- no need to taxi all the way up to the displaced landing threshold. See the AIM Section 2-3-3h2 and Figure 2-3-5.

If you do want to use the full length from the hold short at your red A, you taxi on the marked taxiway. Yes, it's possible that you might fail to see that no-radio Cub, but honestly, if that Cub is aiming to land beyond the displaced threshold (as s/he should), safety will not be compromised to any significant degree by your presence on the taxiway north of the hold short/displaced threshold.
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But what if one wanted to taxi all the way to the displaced threshold?
 
spiderweb said:
But what if one wanted to taxi all the way to the displaced threshold?
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Why would anyone want to do that if they were joining the runway at B or C? Personally, runway behind me is not something I like to have (3 Most Useless Things in Flying, and all that). And how would that be difrerent than taxiing up the runway where there isn't a displaced threshold? Either way, it's something that doesn't make much sense to me.
 
Ron Levy said:
Why would anyone want to do that if they were joining the runway at B or C? Personally, runway behind me is not something I like to have (3 Most Useless Things in Flying, and all that). And how would that be difrerent than taxiing up the runway where there isn't a displaced threshold? Either way, it's something that doesn't make much sense to me.
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Sorry, Ron; I didn't read or write carefully. I meant to start at the beginning of the arrows, where you are talking about.

I'm deleting my post, so as not to confuse others.
 
What am I missing here? You do your run-up, check final, and head on down the taxi-line. Anybody pops up on final you are in the "protected" area behind the threshold and still on the taxiway/line so they won't over fly you.

Who hasn't cleared final, back-taxied the runway, did a 180, and split?! Same thing...
 
There are so many runways with similar or worse scenarios. I've used many runways with no taxiway what so ever. If you park near the wrong end, when you're ready to go, you back taxi full length, turn around and take-off.

How is this any different? I guess I'm missing something.
 
If it's an uncontrolled field, just continue to taxi down towards the end of the runway and let the other airplane land. But I wouldn't pull out onto the actual runway even if there is a displaced threshold. There is no rule that two aircraft can't be on the same side of the so called "hold short" line at the same time.

If it's a controlled field, do what the tower tells you to do (except pull out on the actual runway in front of that no-radio Cub).
 
Sac Arrow said:
I was going to put this in the ASRS thread but it probably deserves a separate topic. And no, I didn't mess up or have a problem.

So here's an interesting quandry....

In the photo, A depicts the hold short line for Runway 17 (022, Columbia). B depicts the point of normal takeoff. C depicts a CDF apron (white concrete feature) where they keep some fire bombers.

As you can see, the hold short line is a fair distance away from the departure end, at least if you wanted to use the whole length of the runway. It can potentially take a long enough time between crossing the line and takeoff such that the traffic situation could change, and you are unable to take off (e.g. that J3 Cub with no radio that you didn't see on downwind, is now on final.)

Let's say someone pops out of nowhere and you've crossed the hold short line. You aren't supposed to enter the CDF apron (there is the sign that says stay out) and you probably couldn't do it anyway because it's lined up with S2's and OV10's. What would you do?

(BTW there is no painted hold short line between the CDF apron and the taxiway/runway.)
Click to expand...

I'd begin takeoff abeam point A.
 
Ron Levy said:
While there is a displaced threshold for landing on 17, the entire length beginning at your red B is marked as usable for takeoff on 17 by the white "-> -> ->" arrows. So, from B, you taxi onto the runway, turn right, cob the power, and takeoff -- no need to taxi all the way up to the displaced landing threshold. See the AIM Section 2-3-3h2 and Figure 2-3-5.

If you do want to use the full length from the hold short at your red A, you taxi on the marked taxiway. Yes, it's possible that you might fail to see that no-radio Cub, but honestly, if that Cub is aiming to land beyond the displaced threshold (as s/he should), safety will not be compromised to any significant degree by your presence on the taxiway north of the hold short/displaced threshold.

However, if it appeared the Cub was really going to land on top of you on the taxiway or hit short and cartwheel onto the taxiway or something like that, nobody is going to criticize you for taxiing off the taxiway onto the CDF ramp to get out of the way.
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Just to be clear, the starting point is not physically at the arrow I drew at B, rather, I put it on that side just to illustrate where the beginning of the displaced threshold arrows started. One has to pass through point A regardless, as the ramp is below the picture.

The question is less one of common sense and safety and more one of legality. Once you taxi past the hold short line, you are technically on the active runway, even if the landing traffic poses no real hazard.

On taxi back runways, you make damn sure nobody is around, and go for it. But you own the runway when you're on it. What about if you're on the taxiway past the hold short line here? Who's runway is it?

Takeoff at A is fine, the field is more than long enough to accomodate my airplane at the highest DA I can expect to see. I still generally don't like to leave runway behind me, particularly on high altitude, short fields.

The airport is Columbia, O22 (Oscar two two.)
 
Sac Arrow said:
Just to be clear, the starting point is not physically at the arrow I drew at B, rather, I put it on that side just to illustrate where the beginning of the displaced threshold arrows started. One has to pass through point A regardless, as the ramp is below the picture.

The question is less one of common sense and safety and more one of legality. Once you taxi past the hold short line, you are technically on the active runway, even if the landing traffic poses no real hazard.

On taxi back runways, you make damn sure nobody is around, and go for it. But you own the runway when you're on it. What about if you're on the taxiway past the hold short line here? Who's runway is it?

Takeoff at A is fine, the field is more than long enough to accomodate my airplane at the highest DA I can expect to see. I still generally don't like to leave runway behind me, particularly on high altitude, short fields.

The airport is Columbia, O22 (Oscar two two.)
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And that's why I was asking what airport. Why worry about it? Obstacles don't appear to be a hazard.
 
Jaybird180 said:
And that's why I was asking what airport. Why worry about it? Obstacles don't appear to be a hazard.
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Sac Arrow said:
The question is less one of common sense and safety and more one of legality.
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(Edit - I see what you're asking, and maybe Columbia isn't the best example, but there are airports around here where you SHOULD use all of the available runway.)
 
Sac Arrow said:
Just to be clear, the starting point is not physically at the arrow I drew at B, rather, I put it on that side just to illustrate where the beginning of the displaced threshold arrows started. One has to pass through point A regardless, as the ramp is below the picture.

The question is less one of common sense and safety and more one of legality. Once you taxi past the hold short line, you are technically on the active runway, even if the landing traffic poses no real hazard.

On taxi back runways, you make damn sure nobody is around, and go for it. But you own the runway when you're on it. What about if you're on the taxiway past the hold short line here? Who's runway is it?

Takeoff at A is fine, the field is more than long enough to accomodate my airplane at the highest DA I can expect to see. I still generally don't like to leave runway behind me, particularly on high altitude, short fields.

The airport is Columbia, O22 (Oscar two two.)
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If I remember correctly, the aircraft landing has the right of way, even if he's nordo.
 
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But if he's not on final when you scan for traffic at the hold short...
 
Jaybird180 said:
But if he's not on final when you scan for traffic at the hold short...
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maybe he was nordo and had an engine failure abeam the numbers! If I spotted him all of a sudden, after crossing the hold short line, I'd do anything I needed to do in order to stay out of his path!!!
 
redtail said:
maybe he was nordo and had an engine failure abeam the numbers! If I spotted him all of a sudden, after crossing the hold short line, I'd do anything I needed to do in order to stay out of his path!!!
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Yep, looks like that was covered in the last sentence of post #3.

I guess it's true that threads are resolved within the first 5 posts and the remaining posts are :rollercoaster:
 
Have you occupied the runway by crossing the hold short line, yes, or no?
 
I usually don't use the displaced threshold at Columbia but I have a few times. Since it is right traffic for 17, the chances of the no radio Cub being there, you missing it in the runup are possible but not as probable. Besides a Cub travels slow enough that if you were on the displaced threshold, or anywhere near it and saw it coming you could easily outrun it before it became an issue, even in another Cub.
 
Inverted said:
I usually don't use the displaced threshold at Columbia but I have a few times. Since it is right traffic for 17, the chances of the no radio Cub being there, you missing it in the runup are possible but not as probable. Besides a Cub travels slow enough that if you were on the displaced threshold, or anywhere near it and saw it coming you could easily outrun it before it became an issue, even in another Cub.
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This isn't an actual occurrence, just an illustrative example.
 
FWIW, post 2 had it summed up. Cap'n added, basically, you can do whatever you want to meet an emergency. Along those lines you can also turn off your strobes in the clouds if you think that's safer.

:rolleyes:
 
Here is another airport with the same sort of layout: KDXR, Danbury Ct. DXR has a class D tower, so most of the time this is not a problem. Although the tower does get grouchy if you taxi beyond the hold short line without clearance!

Back in the day, my DPE used DXR as his base of operations. Ray Noble - since retired. He said it was astounding to him how many primary candidates would taxi right over the (prominently painted) hold short line and bust the ride without even taking off.

-Skip
 

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