So... used 1/2 built kit, what happens?

[tlrussell]

As I said, involved.

still wrong.

 

[unsafervguy]

CHAPTER 25. CERTIFICATE REPAIRMAN FOR EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT

SECTION 1. BACKGROUND

1. PTRS ACTIVITY CODES.

A. Maintenance: 3510.

B. Avionics: 5510.

3. OBJECTIVE. This chapter provides guidance for the issuance of Repairman Experimental Aircraft Builder certificates and the cancellation of surrendered certificates.

5. GENERAL. FAR 21.191 says Repairman Experimental Aircraft certificates are issued for individual builders of aircraft certificated under the FAR Part 21 experimental category for the purpose of operating, amateur-built aircraft, the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation. These repairmen are in no way associated with repairmen certificated under FAR § 65.104 .

A. Only the primary builder of each amateur-built aircraft may be certificated as a repairman. As such, the primary builder is privileged to perform condition inspections of the same scope as Appendix D of FAR Part 43 .

B. Aircraft manufacturing companies that produce experimental aircraft are not eligible for repairmen certificates for amateur-built aircraft.

7. ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS.

A. The applicant must be a U.S. citizen or an individual admitted for permanent residence in the United States. The applicant must also be at least 18 years of age, and the primary builder of the aircraft.

(1) When a club, school, or partnership builds an aircraft, only one individual (such as the class instructor or designated project leader) will be considered for issuance of a repairman certificate for that aircraft.

(2) An individual working alone who applies for a repairman certificate must build the majority of the aircraft in order to be eligible for the certificate.

B. Applicants will be considered to have the requisite skill to determine whether the aircraft is in a condition for safe operation when at least one of the conditions below is met:

(1) The airworthiness inspector has knowledge that the aircraft was constructed by the individual builder. The inspector may accept information from another airworthiness inspector involved in the original aircraft certification and familiar with the builder's expertise.
NOTE: Advisory Circular 20-27 , Certification and Operation of Amateur-Built Aircraft, as amended, notes that amateur builders have adopted the practice of calling upon a person having expertise with aircraft construction techniques, such as Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) technical counselors, to inspect components and conduct other inspections as necessary. This practice has been highly successful in ensuring construction integrity. Therefore, FAA inspectors may use Experimental Aircraft Association technical counselors as resources in verifying the builder's expertise.

(2) The applicant presents satisfactory evidence, such as the aircraft construction logbook.

(3) The applicant proves to the satisfaction of the inspector an ability to perform condition inspections and an ability to determine whether or not the aircraft is in a condition for safe operation.

9. PRIVILEGES AND LIMITATIONS. The builder of a certificated experimental aircraft, who also holds a repairman certificate for that aircraft, may perform the condition inspections required by the operating limitations. Condition inspections will be performed in the same scope as in FAR 43 , Appendix D. The aircraft will be identified on the repairman certificate by make, model, serial number, and certification date.

A. During the aircraft certification process, the FAA issues operating limitations, as required by FAR § 91.319 , to ensure an adequate level of safety.

B. The operating limitations require that the subject aircraft be inspected annually by a repairman, the holder of an FAA mechanic certificate with airframe and powerplant ratings.

11. Reciprocal Acceptance Between Canada and the U.S.. U.S. or Canadian amateur-built aircraft that are acceptable under the provisions of FAR § 21.191(g) or appropriate for certification in Canada under Canadian Air Regulation 211(3) are allowed free reciprocal access between Canada and the United States.

(1) A special flight authorization may be issued by the New York Aircraft Certification Office (ANE-170), delegated to the Manufacturing Inspection Branch (ANE-
178), to Canadian-registered and appropriately certificated amateur-built aircraft under the provisions of FAR § 91.715 for the purpose of operating amateur-built aircraft.

(2) The special flight authorization shall be prepared according to Order 8130.2 , Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft and Related Approvals, as amended. ANE-178 will prescribe operating limitations that will complement the restrictions imposed by Transport Canada and any additional limitations deemed appropriate for operation in the United States. The duration of the special flight authorization shall not exceed 180 days.

13. SURRENDER OF CERTIFICATE. Repairman certificates should be surrendered whenever the aircraft is destroyed. However, if the aircraft is sold, the repairman may elect to retain the certificate in order to perform condition inspections on the aircraft for the new owner. Surrendered certificates should be forwarded to the Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center, Airmen Certification
Branch, AVN-460, P.O. Box 25082, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73125, with a brief statement of
reasons for surrender. The certificate cannot be transferred to the new owner.

I would think this sums it up pretty well.

 

[Tom-D]

"and the primary builder of the aircraft."

Define "Primary builder"

 

[unsafervguy]

The repairman's certificate goes to the one mentioned on the request for the certificate, they are not required to touch the aircraft.

Sorry "not required to touch the aircraft" will never qualify as primary builder.

 

[Tom-D]

Sorry "not required to touch the aircraft" will never qualify as primary builder.

And who is the supervisor of the build?

are they eligible, for the Repairman's certificate? are they required to place hands on the aircraft?

no.

 

[OkieAviator]

And who is the supervisor of the build?

are they eligible, for the Repairman's certificate? are they required to place hands on the aircraft?

no.

1) When a club, school, or partnership builds an aircraft, only one individual (such as the class instructor or designated project leader) will be considered for issuance of a repairman certificate for that aircraft.

Looks like you can just direct the workflow and get it....

 

[Tom-D]

Looks like you can just direct the workflow and get it....

That's just the point I was making. You can supervise, and use a commercial builder, and in some cases the
FAA encourages the builder to do so.

 

[oldShar]

Make sure you get the build logs to prove that an amateur has done the pre-existing work. A picky inspector might challenge you as to whether amateurs have completed 51% of the tasks.

With that satisfied, someone will qualify as the repairman. If you participated in the build, you can be that person.

Here is what they use to determine the amount you've built:

(see section 8) (especially page 8-9)

 

[Tom-D]

When you contract a builder to build your aircraft, how many times do you have to visit the facility to be supervising the build?

 

[Henning]

When you contract a builder to build your aircraft, how many times do you have to visit the facility to be supervising the build?

You also do not qualify for the Repairman's certificate, there was a pretty lengthy ordeal over that a few years ago where even that plane may not ever get a certificate either according to the FAA. I didn't keep a copy or link to that letter, but IIRC they came down hard and set standards on the "pro built experimental" industry.

 

[Todd Copeland]

I just had my Glasair III inspected by the FAA. It was a 1987 kit that another builder started. (Yes you can save a lot of money this way) the vast majority of the build was left to my dad and I. We spent the last five years building it. Regarding the repair and certificate the inspector told me that it could be issued to either one of us, our choice. However since I am the owner of the airplane I had to be registered as the builder even though it was a joint effort. With regard to the "who built it" question, the FAA was interested enough to ask pointed questions to be sure we had the knowledge to have built it.
Buying a second hand kit is a great way to save money on a kit airplane. I bought my Glastar this way too (450 ttaf now) and I just bought an RV-14 wing kit this way. You do need to be careful when buying to be sure you have completeness of the kit and qaulity in the work performed to its current state.
Bottom line on buying second hand kits. Yes, by all means but be careful that you know what you are buying.

 

[nauga]

When you contract a builder to build your aircraft...

When you "contract a builder" (sic) to build your aircraft, your primary cert concern should be whether it will qualify for experimental/amateur built, never mind the repairman's cert.

Nauga,
who predicts a poopstorm in 3...2...1...

 

[kyleb]

When you "contract a builder" (sic) to build your aircraft, your primary cert concern should be whether it will qualify for experimental/amateur built, never mind the repairman's cert.

Nauga,
who predicts a poopstorm in 3...2...1...

Nauganna be a poopstorm here!

You should be absolutely right. But I haven't heard of a single faux EAB being turned down because the work was contracted. There is (seemingly) always a DAR around who needs an extra $500 and is smart enough to stop asking questions before he has to disqualify the airplane...

 

[unsafervguy]

That's just the point I was making. You can supervise, and use a commercial builder, and in some cases the
FAA encourages the builder to do so.

i would suggest you re-read section B of the document i posted, you have to meet one of those requirements to get the cert.

 

[unsafervguy]

kyle there have been a some refused and some even revoked by the FAA.

what started that whole thing was someone that contracted a build, and then applied for the repairman cert. the FAA guy asked a few questions found the guy new nothing about the construction of the aircraft and started asking looking in to it. If i remember correctly the EAB cert was pulled for that aircraft.

 

[Dav8or]

It seems like the best time to get a partial build is just before the avionics go in. Then you get to build the panel, choose the paint and interior. All the personal stuff. I imagine that you won't get the repairman's certificate at this late stage and have to get someone to help you with the annual, but you get everything else including making it your own plane.

 

[Dav8or]

kyle there have been a some refused and some even revoked by the FAA.

what started that whole thing was someone that contracted a build, and then applied for the repairman cert. the FAA guy asked a few questions found the guy new nothing about the construction of the aircraft and started asking looking in to it. If i remember correctly the EAB cert was pulled for that aircraft.

Sadly IMO, the whole pro build industry with planes like the Lancair Evolution will eventually wreck the whole E/AB category. Not just the Evolution either. There are lots of pro built Vans out there too. I expect new regs coming soon.

 

[Todd Copeland]

Sadly IMO, the whole pro build industry with planes like the Lancair Evolution will eventually wreck the whole E/AB category. Not just the Evolution either. There are lots of pro built Vans out there too. I expect new regs coming soon.

I disagree, there is more a move toward tolerance here. The FAA seems to understand the safety is improved with professional help. The "two weeks to taxi" program with Glasair aviation is sanctioned by the FAA. I think with the trend toward less patient builders the kit industry is going to move more and more in that direction.

 

[Dav8or]

I disagree, there is more a move toward tolerance here. The FAA seems to understand the safety is improved with professional help. The "two weeks to taxi" program with Glasair aviation is sanctioned by the FAA. I think with the trend toward less patient builders the kit industry is going to move more and more in that direction.

I'm not talking about builder assist. I'm talking about somebody hiring another person to build an airplane for them. Start to finish. There are people with money that don't give a damn about building, they just want the airplane to fly away in and they want it to be brand new and they want it exactly the way they want it.

They have zero interest in pulling a rivet, or sanding fiberglass. Most kits offer superior performance and a discount price even after you pay the builder a hefty premium for their time compared to certified. People can, will and do cheat.

I personally sympathize. The certified airplane has become bloated in price and offers poor innovation. People should be allowed to obtain the latest bleeding edge tech at their own peril. Unfortunately, that's not the country, or world we live in anymore.

 

[Tom-D]

When you "contract a builder" (sic) to build your aircraft, your primary cert concern should be whether it will qualify for experimental/amateur built, never mind the repairman's cert.

Contract is a tricky word.

When you contract me to rivit the fuselage, and other parts together, then contract the AV shop to put in the radio stack, then contract the upholster to do the seats and interior, then contract the paint shop to paint it, and last but not least, you have me install an engine that was bought from Lycoming.

Who built the aircraft?

 

[Tom-D]

I'm not talking about builder assist. I'm talking about somebody hiring another person to build an airplane for them. Start to finish.

Dave there is a way to do that.

I buy the kit, I build the aircraft the way you want it. I register it in my name, get all the inspections and paper in my name, then you buy the aircraft at a price equal to my investment in time and materials.
Most won't do it this way, simply because they don't trust.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm not talking about builder assist. I'm talking about somebody hiring another person to build an airplane for them. Start to finish. There are people with money that don't give a damn about building, they just want the airplane to fly away in and they want it to be brand new and they want it exactly the way they want it.

They have zero interest in pulling a rivet, or sanding fiberglass. Most kits offer superior performance and a discount price even after you pay the builder a hefty premium for their time compared to certified. People can, will and do cheat.

I personally sympathize. The certified airplane has become bloated in price and offers poor innovation. People should be allowed to obtain the latest bleeding edge tech at their own peril. Unfortunately, that's not the country, or world we live in anymore.

IOWs, you can build any thing you want, then fly it over my kids school? OMG it might even fall thru my roof.

That is the mentality of the American voter. There isn't a congress critter in office that will allow you to harm their constituents.

 

[JHW]

Dave there is a way to do that.

I buy the kit, I build the aircraft the way you want it. I register it in my name, get all the inspections and paper in my name, then you buy the aircraft at a price equal to my investment in time and materials.
Most won't do it this way, simply because they don't trust.

or a (fairly common) variation on that theme - we build the plane as partners. I buy the kit and all materials, you do all the labor. After the hours are flown off, you sell me your half of the partnership.

 

[Tom-D]

or a (fairly common) variation on that theme - we build the plane as partners. I buy the kit and all materials, you do all the labor. After the hours are flown off, you sell me your half of the partnership.

That works too.

 

[flyingron]

Who is going to be the one that determines the 50% part? I swear it was a rivet away from 50% so therefor I built over 50%.

First off, it's 50 percent of the "tasks". The FAA has already determined compliance for most of the popular kits.

Second, it doesn't have to be one PERSON doing 50 percent. You could have 50 amateur builders each doing 1% if you want. The rule is just there to preclude the kit manufacturer from providing more than 50% of the tasks.

All that is required for certification is the aircraft be "primarily constructed for educational or recreational purposes." The 50% rule is just an interpretation of that reg to keep manufactuers from cheating and delivering substantially complete aircraft and calling them "kits" eligible for experimental certificates rather than getting official certification.

 

[Stewartb]

The DAR inspection occurs after completion. The owner certifies the build. In discussions with my chosen DAR he told me he expected me to seek outside assistance and to hire parts of the build and that was perfectly acceptable. It's up to me to determine compliance with the requirements and to sign off on the certification.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/form/faa8130-12.pdf

 

[Stewartb]

More on the E-AB news front. Cub Crafters now has a one week builder program that allows you to assist in the construction of components and then leave while CC builds the airplane for you. All legal. Interesting concept.

CUBCRAFTERS ANNOUNCES CARBON CUB FX
BUILDER ASSIST PROGRAM

Yakima, Washington – June 22, 2015: Backcountry aircraft manufacturer CubCrafters has announced a new program designed to engage airplane buyers more intimately with their purchase. Carbon Cub FX Builder Assist immerses new owners in the construction of the aluminum, steel and composite parts that make up the Carbon Cub, allowing the customer to know their aircraft in the way only an aircraft builder can. FX builders’ efforts are rewarded with a new Carbon Cub certified as Experimental-Amateur Built (E-AB), affording operational latitude to the builder/owner which is unavailable for other aircraft certifications, notably: increased payload potential, night and/or IFR operation, builder maintenance and the ability to modify the aircraft.

“Carbon Cub FX turns the familiar ‘builder assist’ convention upside down”, says Jim Richmond, Founder and CEO of CubCrafters. “Instead of assisting your assembly of parts from a kit, CubCrafters’ technicians facilitate your fabrication of the parts themselves! Using our modern facilities and equipment, we will guide you through the fabrication process in an astonishingly short time. Then, CubCrafters will use your parts to assemble a factory-perfect Carbon Cub, complete with all the options that you choose!”

This new program satisfies the FAA Major Portion Rule (or “51% rule”): the builder completes more than half of the aircraft construction described in the Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist (FAA Advisory Circular 20-27G, Appendix . No technical experience is necessary.

“Our factory personnel will guide you through each process to ensure that your parts are in-spec and meet our quality standards,” Richmond continues. “You can create your dream under the supervision of our staff, and we’ll guarantee delivery of a world-class aircraft.”

THE AIRCRAFT
The Carbon Cub has advanced the legendary Cub architecture into the twenty-first century, combining modern design methods with lightweight materials and a 180-horsepower engine. The Carbon Cub literally redefines expectations of “backcountry aircraft”, and it assures formidable off-airport performance.
Carbon Cub FX is an extension of CubCrafters’ Carbon Cub EX-2 kit, which delivers the same thrilling performance as the ready-to-fly Carbon Cub, but may be certified up to 1,865 lbs. gross weight, allowing a usable load over 900 lbs.

For the Builder Assist program, the Carbon Cub FX is equipped with a CC340 engine (180 HP), Long-Range Fuel Tanks, Extended Baggage, and 3x3 Extended HD Landing Gear as standard. A range of panels, paint schemes and other options are available.

THE PROGRAM
· FX builders will spend a five day session at CubCrafters' Headquarters constructing their aircraft
- Five 8-hour days working with our factory technicians
- Steel, aluminum and composite aircraft components will be fabricated and assembled

CubCrafters uses the customer-built components to assemble a nearly-complete Carbon Cub FX
Approximately 50 days after the first build session, the builder returns to put the finishing touches on the aircraft
- One day for final assembly and preparation for airworthiness inspection
- One day for airworthiness inspection, certification and a minimum of two test flights by CubCrafters test pilots
The buyer receives a one-year aircraft warranty (unprecedented for E-AB aircraft)


The new Carbon Cub FX Builder Assist program is now available to new aircraft buyers from CubCrafters Certified Sales Centers around the world: cubcrafters.com/csc

ABOUT CUBCRAFTERS
Founded in 1980, CubCrafters manufactures a line of backcountry aircraft inspired by the 80-year history of classic taildragger aviation, but the company’s products and services are leading edge.
CubCrafters offers three new, ready-to-fly aircraft. The Sport Cub S2 and Carbon Cub SS lead all American light sport aircraft in performance and sales. The Top Cub, with a useful load of over 1000 lbs., is the most capable two-place personal and utility aircraft in its class. CubCrafters also offers their Carbon Cub in a kit version, the Carbon Cub EX-2, as well as an E-AB “builder assist” program, Carbon Cub FX Builder Assist.
For more information, visit cubcrafters.com/
CubCrafters[\QUOTE]