So just how common IS a "power off landing"?

Skylane81E said:
Everyone,

In reality many folks are crossing him off their "possible CFIs to fly with" list.
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Not really trying to impress anyone. I was just replying to this smart ass post.
Dead Stick said:
You've only flown light two and four seat aircraft haven't you? :yes:
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I'm in no way looking for MORE students, as it stands, between flying job 1 and CFIing job 2, I have have a hell of a time getting away from the airport as it is now.

Anyone looking for a CFI, I would, however, recommend finding for a instructor who isn't afraid to practice power off landings.
 
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I would like to use this opportunity to shamelessly show off my second try at a power-off 180 :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1a9a5OdcOY

Seriously though. Practice power-off landings - yes. Now that I think about it, most of my landings for the first 60 or so hours were power off
Then I flew a Tomahawk (rather beat up) where I found that having 100-150 rpm over idle switches on "auto-greaser" mode. Then I had a "turbine guy" CFI who taught me to fly the airplane onto the runway gently rather than do full stall landings. I take the power off to idle when flaring, since that provides for smoother landings.
Point being, we all have our own preferences and as someone once put it on a internet message board very much like this one, "Opinions are like a-holes, everyone's got one and thinks that others' stink".
 
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NineThreeKilo said:
I'm in no way looking for MORE students, as it stands, between flying job 1 and CFIing job 2, I have have a hell of a time getting away from the airport as it is now.

Anyone looking for a CFI, I would, however, recommend finding for a instructor who isn't afraid to practice power off landings.
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Seriously for the record, I am a CFI-Glider (as well as CFII and CFI-ME) so I'm not afraid of making power-off landings. For your future reference, the further up the aircraft weight and performance ladder you go, the less viable your "power off in the pattern" as SOP becomes. You will discover this for yourself when you finally get to fly some larger than a 208.
 
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Dead Stick said:
Seriously for the record, I am a CFI-Glider (as well as CFII and CFI-ME) so I'm not afraid of making power-off landings. For your future reference, the further up the aircraft weight and performance ladder you go, the less viable your "power off in the pattern" as SOP becomes. You will discover this for yourself when you finally get to fly some larger than a 208.
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Bingo, power off is SOP for me in my 182. Point is you cannot speak in absolutes.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Messing around in the sim, we've killed all 3 in both the DC-10 and MD-11. Generally, I've done it from overhead the airport at 5,000 AGL. Never been graded on it, just for the heck of it. Haven't got to try it on the whale yet.
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Yea, each operator has their own scenarios, none of it's graded but it does make a good confidence builder. :thumbsup:
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Full flame out, no, 0trq yes.

Think there was a video of a skydive Kingair doing a power off decent and landing, seems he could manage his energy and he does that every day.
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I had a sim instructor try it once and flamed out all of the engines on me. His bet was whether or not I could make the airport, my question to him was which runway did he want me to land on. You need to learn that what cowboys do in a 208 or a clapped out King Air jump plane doesn't always translate to appropriate day-to-day SOP.
 
Dead Stick said:
Seriously for the record, I am a CFI-Glider (as well as CFII and CFI-ME) so I'm not afraid of making power-off landings. For your future reference, the further up the aircraft weight and performance ladder you go, the less viable your "power off in the pattern" as SOP becomes. You will discover this for yourself when you finally get to fly some larger than a 208.
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In my experience flying takes a back seat to "managing the systems" once you get much larger then a 208 or twin otter and that's not what I got into aviation to do, I'll leave that to those who like long paved runways, rolling flight bags and gold bars ;)

Practicing power off is good to do, day to day it's not needed for larger pax planes, but still good to do (read gilmi glider), chit happens.

As for THIS board (not the pro boards) most folks here are flying 172s, PA28s, SR22s, etc and for those planes and the hobby pilots who fly them, they really should try to make most pattern work landings power off, practicing power off abeam is a VERY good idea for these guys.

 
NineThreeKilo said:
As for THIS board (not the pro boards) most folks here are flying 172s, PA28s, SR22s, etc and for those planes and the hobby pilots who fly them, they really should try to make most pattern work landings power off, practicing power off abeam is a VERY good idea for these guys.
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Sigh..

Why??
 
RotorAndWing said:
While I would never advocate doing such a maneuver in a small twin or any airplane, performing such a maneuver in the safety of a simulator gives valuable insight into energy management.
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I'll buy that. In the sim, you can try anything, nobody gets hurt, and maybe you learn something valuable. But in a real airplane? Kinda like doing engine cuts at liftoff in Part 23 light twins. :hairraise:
 
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The only time i don't do power off landings from abeam historically, is when i am rusty or there are passengers aboard who might feel its a tad too exciting for their taste. Make short approach are three of my favorite words to hear from atc. But that's in small Cessnas and Cherokees typically.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 
Jaybird180 said:
Currently I reduce power to 1500 abeam and then do not touch power until short final, where power goes to idle. I thought of modifying that to use ~1700 abeam, then reduce to 1500 after established on final, reducing to idle on short final.

Does this violate the stabilized approach rule?



Was the above scenario considered when you wrote this?



:popcorn:
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No, and yes. Both meet the conditions in my previous post and would demonstrate to me as an examiner that you (a) have a plan in mind and
(b) are adapting the plan to the situation at hand.

If, for example, approach assigns a downwind heading and then hands you off to tower at midfield, your plan for a no-power approach simply may not work due to distance from the field.
 
Dead Stick said:
You won't see many competent pilots doing it in a Bonanza, Mooney, 206, 210, etc. You won't see any pilot doing it on any type of IFR approach.
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Not an issue in a mooney 201...

well except for an IFR approach of course
 
I was taught power off landings from the very start. The instructors reasoning was that if you have to emergency land, you will be more prepared and experienced for the approach.

That started in a Champ and carried over into a 150. In about 45 hours of that I can't remember EVER doing anything except a power off landing.

I went away from flying after that 45 hours and when I came back I bought a Cessna 140 and did power off landings. I now have something over 600 landings and the closest I've ever come to landing with power is on a gusty day, I approach at about 1,100 RPM's just to help in case the bottom drops out all of a sudden. Nothing but a precaution for a particular situation.

If, God forbid, I ever have to do a for real emergency landing, my power off landing experience will serve me well.
 
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MBDiagMan said:
If, God forbid, I ever have to do a for real emergency landing, my power off landing experience will serve me well.
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Good for you Doc. Many pilots I see (and most flying rental trainers) would have a hard time hitting a 2000' long field in their 152 or 172 if they had to. What bothers me, is that few of these pilots seem make an effort to push their skills a little. They continually flying using the techniques taught to beginner student pilots. It's OK to move past the student pilot level of skill!
 
RoscoeT said:
Good for you Doc. Many pilots I see (and most flying rental trainers) would have a hard time hitting a 2000' long field in their 152 or 172 if they had to. What bothers me, is that few of these pilots seem make an effort to push their skills a little. They continually flying using the techniques taught to beginner student pilots. It's OK to move past the student pilot level of skill!
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Complacency. Where would the NTSB be without it ?
 
MBDiagMan said:
I was taught power off landings from the very start. The instructors reasoning was that if you have to emergency land, you will be more prepared and experienced for the approach.
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This is really the best argument I have heard for throttle to idle abeam the numbers on every approach. Making sure you can make the runway at every point in the pattern seems like a bogus reason to me, unless you also plan every flight so that your route keeps you within gliding distance of a runway at all times. I have never seen any convincing reason to think that engine failure is likelier in the pattern than elsewhere (except for carb ice, which is mostly preventable).

I haven't practiced a power off landing since a couple of BFRs ago. I think I'm going to start doing that regularly.
 
azure said:
I haven't practiced a power off landing since a couple of BFRs ago. I think I'm going to start doing that regularly.
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Liklihood of a real emergency aside, why not do it just for the pure satisfaction, challenge, and development of flying skills? There is no challenge in flying a mile long powered approach in a 172. Making the effort to fly artfully is really what keeps me interested in aviation. I understand not everyone is like that. But I think the pilots who have that appreciation, and make the effort are the ones who are less likely to hurt themselves.
 
RoscoeT said:
Liklihood of a real emergency aside, why not do it just for the pure satisfaction, challenge, and development of flying skills? There is no challenge in flying a mile long powered approach in a 172. Making the effort to fly artfully is really what keeps me interested in aviation. I understand not everyone is like that. But I think the pilots who have that appreciation, and make the effort are the ones who are less likely to hurt themselves.
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Same goes for shortfield and softfield landings and takeoffs - even if you never fly off of short or soft fields. Even in the jets, I'll occasionally practice a short field landing - but only when we're empty. You've got to keep those skills up, you never know when you might have to draw upon them.
 
Dead Stick said:
Same goes for shortfield and softfield landings and takeoffs
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Yep, there are endless things in flying that you can take pride in making an effort to work on and do well with.
 
RoscoeT said:
Liklihood of a real emergency aside, why not do it just for the pure satisfaction, challenge, and development of flying skills? There is no challenge in flying a mile long powered approach in a 172. Making the effort to fly artfully is really what keeps me interested in aviation. I understand not everyone is like that. But I think the pilots who have that appreciation, and make the effort are the ones who are less likely to hurt themselves.
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I agree totally. I have just been focusing for a couple of years on other aspects of aviating -- instrument skills and learning the whole IFR thing. And I've been neglecting other parts of my flying skillset. And that is about to change.

Anyway my point was not about whether to do it occasionally to keep the skill up, but why not do it on every landing when flying the pattern? Law of primacy and all...
 
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azure said:
I agree totally. I have just been focusing for a couple of years on other aspects of aviating -- instrument skills and learning the whole IFR thing. And I've been neglecting other parts of my flying skillset. And that is about to change.

Anyway my point was not about whether to do it occasionally to keep the skill up, but why not do it on every landing when flying the pattern? Law of primacy and all...
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I think context is important. I was taught it pre-solo as a "what if". That has influenced my thinking and preferences away from power-off approaches. I was taught stabilized approaches, but not 747 style.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I think context is important. I was taught it pre-solo as a "what if". That has influenced my thinking and preferences away from power-off approaches. I was taught stabilized approaches, but not 747 style.
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If you were taught that pre solo as a what if, why is that "what if" not a possibility of occurring now?

There were lots of things that were taught to me in training that I have moved away from in an effort to develop more advanced skills. AFAIAC, the training leading up to my Private, was nothing more than getting me where I could fly well enough to pass the checkride to get my "license to learn."

I have fallen way short of my goal, but I have tried very hard to learn as much as I can and to improve my procedures and precision as much as possible.

It kind of scares me to think about a pilot that does not have current gliding practice. You never know when that aircraft is going to turn into a glider with a big, heavy lump in the front, with a non turning prop attached.

I'm sorry to lecture, but I just hate to see someone possibly setting themselves up for a dangerous situation.
 
azure said:
Anyway my point was not about whether to do it occasionally to keep the skill up, but why not do it on every landing when flying the pattern?
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Because you need to be able to do both - power off and long final power on. Unless you fly out of a private airport where you are the only one who will ever be in the pattern, sooner or later, you are going to have to keep the power on, extend the downwind and make a non-power off approach. If all you ever do is the traditional power off 180, then when the time comes that you have to alter your approach, it is going to be alot more challenging for you than it needs to be. Also, the time may come that you move up in the food chain and start flying bigger, heavier, higher performance equipment. Power off approaches from the pattern aren't generally good ideas in twins and many HP singles.

I am all for power off landings and I do them at least 50% of the time in my 170. But you need to mix it up and be proficient in more than the power off. Don't be a one trick pony.
 
I don't see power on approaches as any challenge at all. I have been in situations where I needed to extend my downwind, or do a long, straight in approach or other things. It doesn't seem to me to take any practice, or anything to do it. You just feed it power when needed and back off when needed.

Gliding in with no power is probably not much harder to learn either. It's just a matter of getting the feel for how it glides in. If you are learning and you're short, feed it some power. It's not as if either one requires an instructor to teach. It's just a matter of getting the feel for it.

It's just that when the engine sputters and stops for real, that is not a good time to get the feel for no power approaches. Practicing ahead of time sounds like a better plan.

Fearless' switching them up so he's practiced at both is a good plan too.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I don't see power on approaches as any challenge at all. I have been in situations where I needed to extend my downwind, or do a long, straight in approach or other things. It doesn't seem to me to take any practice, or anything to do it. You just feed it power when needed and back off when needed.
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+1

Never felt a power on approach required hardly any practice when one is normally practicing power off?? (aside from a IFR ops)
 
azure said:
I agree totally. I have just been focusing for a couple of years on other aspects of aviating -- instrument skills and learning the whole IFR thing. And I've been neglecting other parts of my flying skillset. And that is about to change.

Anyway my point was not about whether to do it occasionally to keep the skill up, but why not do it on every landing when flying the pattern? Law of primacy and all...
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We often practice all types of landings including power off, after an approach has gone visual, being in a perfect spot to do them in minimal time and it's both a reality check and they are quick breaks from the instrument flying.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I don't see power on approaches as any challenge at all.
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Perhaps challenging wasn't the best word. The issue is more with developing a set pattern or habit that you can screw up when you are forced to change your routine. Way too many pilots have forgotten to put the gear down or otherwise improperly configured the airplane because they were used to a set way of doing things and were forced (either by traffic or the tower) to do something different.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
For pattern work you get THAT far out??

Or did you not get that the comment was pertaining to pattern work??
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Not sure what you mean by "pattern work" if i'm approaching from the pattern side i usually enter on the base leg so i am way too far from the field to glide there if both squirrels quit. If approaching from the non-pattern side, after crossing mid field i like to make a sweeping turn to bleed off speed and roll out pretty much abeam the numbers. Again at that moment i'm too far to glide with no engines. I dont give it a second thought. The last thing i'm going to do is try some heroics to reach the runway, thats a good way to get killed. I'm perfectly happy to call avemco and tell them which cornfield their airplane is in.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I don't see power on approaches as any challenge at all.
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Having watched lots of spot landing contests where anything goes, and flown with a lot of pilots, I would say that the average weekend pilot's proficiency in putting the plane on a particular spot on the runway isn't where it should be. So, it must be more of a challenge to the average weekend pilot than you think or they'd be doing better.
 
MBDiagMan said:
If you were taught that pre solo as a what if, why is that "what if" not a possibility of occurring now?

There were lots of things that were taught to me in training that I have moved away from in an effort to develop more advanced skills. AFAIAC, the training leading up to my Private, was nothing more than getting me where I could fly well enough to pass the checkride to get my "license to learn."

I have fallen way short of my goal, but I have tried very hard to learn as much as I can and to improve my procedures and precision as much as possible.

It kind of scares me to think about a pilot that does not have current gliding practice. You never know when that aircraft is going to turn into a glider with a big, heavy lump in the front, with a non turning prop attached.

I'm sorry to lecture, but I just hate to see someone possibly setting themselves up for a dangerous situation.
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I have no excuse. I can count on one hand with leftover fingers the number of solo flights since getting my tix
 
Fearless Tower said:
Because you need to be able to do both - power off and long final power on.
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Since I fly instrument approaches some 30% of the time anyway (and usually straight-in instrument approaches), I doubt seriously that I'm in any danger of forgetting how to fly power-on approaches. And I agree that you need to know how to do both kinds of approaches, and should practice both regularly. But when flying the pattern, as opposed to long straight-in finals, I don't see any reason not to make power idle abeam the numbers your SOP -- once you have energy management down well enough that you can stabilize your approach at pretty much any point.
 
azure said:
I don't see any reason not to make power idle abeam the numbers your SOP -- once you have energy management down well enough that you can stabilize your approach at pretty much any point.
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You fly a retract right? As I said earlier, where I see people get into trouble is when they have a rigid routine and being forced to mix it, can screw up their routine - bad things can happen (like gear ups). Nothing wrong with making a power off 180 your standard approach, but you should not be bound to it.
 
Well, I'd want to qualify that....

There is nothing wrong with a power-off 180 at an empty uncontrolled field.

Don't do it at VNY on a nice summer Saturday, at least without approval from Tower (which would be doubtful). It's hard to follow #3 with a power-off 180 when he's on a 2 mile final.
 
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