So, is flipping the bird free speech or not?

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poadeleted3

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Some guy got held up in traffic at a construction site, got frustrated, and made an obscene hand gesture at a construction worker. Construction worker tells a cop, cop cites the guy (which no doubt helped ease his frustration.) Guy says he has a Constitutional right to free speech, which was violated by the cop and the cop's department. The charge has been dropped, but the guy is suing anyway, on the basis that his rights were deliberately violated.

So? Does he have a right to be rude? Personally, I think so. The Constitution does not give us a right to not be offended by the behavior of others. He did no physical harm, committed no violence, threatened no harm or violence. He was rude and ill mannered, and it is my opinion his right to behave badly is indeed Constitutionally protected.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/14/D8GBDDHO9.html
 
Joe Williams said:
So? Does he have a right to be rude? Personally, I think so.
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I'd have to agree. Flipping a finger is as common an epithat as any I suspect, and one that may be offensive to some, but is otherwise a very "expressive" statement. And you're right, nobody is free from offense in this country. Just MHO.
 
Certain threatening statements can be considered assault. I wonder if some gestures can be legally construed in the same manner. Adam, Jim G., Spike, Midlife, opinions?
 
Here's the Pennsylvania code covering disordelry conduct. You decide:

5503. Disorderly conduct.
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
  1. engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or tumultuous behavior;
  2. makes unreasonable noise;
  3. uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture; or
  4. creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.
(b) Grading.--An offense under this section is a misdemeanor of the third degree if the intent of the actor is to cause substantial harm or serious inconvenience, or if he persists in disorderly conduct after reasonable warning or request to desist. Otherwise disorderly conduct is a summary offense.
(c) Definition.--As used in this section the word "public" means affecting or likely to affect persons in a place to which the public or a substantial group has access; among the places included are highways, transport facilities, schools, prisons, apartment houses, places of business or amusement, any neighborhood, or any premises which are open to the public.
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Seems to me that it fit the bill. If he wasn't doing it to cause public annoyance or alarm, then why did he do it at all?

The department and prosecutor pussed out IMHO.
 
thats not so much speech as it is profanity, the same way we dont allow public nudity.
 
I just smile and wave nicely at the idiots. It confuses them and they don't know how to react.

Of course some moron would probably consider that wave and smile as harrassment, but hey morons are freely available. Just go to a courthouse and you will find plenty. :)
 
Michael said:
thats not so much speech as it is profanity, the same way we dont allow public nudity.
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I agree with Michael. It's not necessarily about the speech as the public "frowning" on the words themselves. Is the F-bomb considered a free speech issue? Isn't flippin' the bird the same thing in non-verbal language?
 
I heard a story about the origin of the single digit salute. It was said that the French (in a war long long ago) would cut off the middle finger of the British Longbow Archers when they were captured. This prevented the Archers from being able to draw a bow.
In retaliation, the British Archers before a battle, would salute the French, kind of "YEAH! I STILL GOT IT." (or ascribe your own insult here).
So, if this is the case, then surely the single finger salute is a very threatening geasture.
 
I think it is protected speech, at least in Colorado. We've had a couple of incidents with bumper stickers lately and the police lost. But why is he suing? Sure it is agrevating but brush it off and move on. Sounds like all he got was a ticket and now he's free to express himself all he wants. Sorry seems like every story any more ends with 'lawsuit'.
 
wow - who knew there was so much rich history behind this?
google middle finger salute
 
silver-eagle said:
I heard a story about the origin of the single digit salute. It was said that the French (in a war long long ago) would cut off the middle finger of the British Longbow Archers when they were captured. This prevented the Archers from being able to draw a bow.
In retaliation, the British Archers before a battle, would salute the French, kind of "YEAH! I STILL GOT IT." (or ascribe your own insult here).
So, if this is the case, then surely the single finger salute is a very threatening geasture.
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Not quite
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm


Wiki weighs in on the origin as Roman based http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_finger
 
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Hmmm...

"In Germany, showing it to an individual can be considered as an insult and theoretically is punishable with a fine of up to a month's income. "

and...

"The United States FCC has banned display of this gesture on broadcast television as an obscenity. As a result the gesture is often censored, and airbrushed out or replaced with large-pixel blocks. "
 
In Texas there has been some fairly recent case law that ruled that "flipping the bird" by itself is not sufficient to incite an immediate breach of the peace and therefore is not an arrestable action regardless of what our disorderly conduct law says.
 
Don't forget in some countries they use two fingers. Did one of our Presidents get the aussies laughing?
 
I don't know about free speech, my best guess is it would depend on who the judge is and what kind of mood they're in that day. I have heard of (probably just urban legend, but who knows) people being cited for 3rd Degree Assault for flipping off other motorists.

I do have first hand knowledge from my law enforcement days of a police officer that pulled someone over after they flipped him off. The "flipper" was subsequently arrested for D.W.I. and attempted to get the charge dropped by saying the arresting officer lacked probable cause to stop him. The guy admitted to flipping the officer off to the judge, and the judge upheld the stop and subsequent arrest. YMMV, of course.
 
ausrere said:
In Texas there has been some fairly recent case law that ruled that "flipping the bird" by itself is not sufficient to incite an immediate breach of the peace and therefore is not an arrestable action regardless of what our disorderly conduct law says.
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I think there was a Superior Court opinion about 4 or 5 years ago here in PA saying the same, basically. It doesn't properly fit within the Disorderly Conduct statute, at least according to our appeals judges.

Jim G
 
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